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United States10173 Posts
On October 23 2023 17:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Can't just the DMZ be taken from Israeli territory outside Gaza? I thought the Gaza strip itself already included a 'No-Go' area next to the border. If Israel takes a similar area from the region they control themselves, couldn't that suffice? Also - I agree that the word genocide is best avoided (I find that when there are words with many different possible meanings, going with the 'more extreme' meaning tends to turn debates into debates about semantics rather than about whether what is happening is okay). That said, I'd like to move the discussion onto the west bank, because that does a better job problematizing Israel's actions than what happens in Gaza. In Gaza, for some people, combating Hamas seems to justify 'everything short of genocide'. To me it seems like a lot of people would actually be fine with 100k civilians dying if it also meant the death of the 30-40k estimated Hamas soldiers. To be clear, I'm not in agreement with these people (I think this type of death toll would ensure that there's a future generation of Hamas, or Islamic Jihad, or Al-Aqsa, or whatever), but I also don't think there's much debate to be had. That said, relevant to the debate about civilian casualties and Hamas using human shields and that this is why the civilian casualties are so high even though Israel gives a warning, I'm seeing the red crescent (muslim red cross) complain about being bombed without warning, and the UN gave UN experts decry bombing of hospitals and schools as crimes against humanity, call for prevention of genocide a press release 4 days ago which is very clear in its condemnation of elements of Israel's response. And while they're not claiming a genocide IS happening, they are warning about one potentially happening. Anyway. In the West Bank, there's no Hamas (at least not of significance). Not that there are no groups wanting to use violence against Israel in the West Bank, but Israeli actions cannot be defended by 'we must use these measures to eradicate Hamas'. Yet, in the West Bank, there are still Palestinians who are killed and who lose their homes - as well as having to live with generally oppressive apartheid policies. Until Israel changes their policy here, they imo have no credibility in claiming that the elements of their policy that they themselves admit is 'unfortunate' is a necessary consequence of Hamas.
I think we can all relatively agree that what Israel continues to do in the West Bank should not be tolerated. And it needs to be called out much more as well. The Gaza situation is very complicated, but the West Bank situation is much simpler. The problem is if we really want peace there as well, how are you going to tell all the Israeli settlers they have to pack up and go back to Israel? No chance they or Israel ever agree to that.
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Looks like Hamas will release the hostages with a dual nationality.
Source in Gaza speaks to i24NEWS
According to sources within Gaza, the finalization of a potential deal is currently underway, with Qatari mediation playing a crucial role. The Red Cross are on their way to receive a group of about 50 of the abductees with dual citizenship. According to the sources, their transfer will take place in the Khan Yunis area in the south of the Gaza Strip. Should no new obstacles emerge, a deal is anticipated to be reached in the hours ahead. As part of the understandings and in order to allow the Red Cross personnel to reach the area safely, the sources report that there have been no Israeli airstrikes on Gaza during these recent hours.
www.i24news.tv
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Canada11360 Posts
On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent
But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis?
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On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis?
Maybe, yes. I'm confused why people keep bringing this kind of thing up.
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On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis?
Presumably it wouldn't just be the US cutting off international relations between the West and Israel while arming Hamas like it was the Azov brigade. So I'd say not likely.
To elaborate a bit, it wouldn't go from the West being complicit in the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians to being complicit in the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Israelis.
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On October 23 2023 14:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 13:18 Cerebrate1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? I should clarify my stance: Israel's stated goal for the conflict is to destroy Hamas as the governing body of Gaza. This is in everyone's best interest. Israeli's will have one less state level terrorist organization at their borders. Gazans won't be raised in an extremist autocracy that teaches them to hate and throw their lives away. Everyone everywhere should support this happening as quickly as possible, because the longer this takes, the higher the body count on both sides. If this is successful (which, again, is the goal), Hamas will be gone. The people of Gaza are not all bad though, and Israel's best hope for the future is to try to slowly turn them into a friend. Likely, this will be done by handing Gaza over to the PA or something. That said, a population who has been fed extremist propaganda for 70 years isn't going to turn on a dime, so a DMZ will be set up so Israeli's can sleep better at night while Gazans are eased out of their extremism. The goal is not to take land. The DMZ just helps ensure future peace. My "Scenario 2" was only if Israel fails in their primary goal. It's just a contingency. Although, in that contingency (where Hamas still runs Gaza), the DMZ would be even more important. But even then, the bigger goal would be re-establishing deterrence, and that will certainly happen, because I see no reasonable scenario where thousands of Hamas militants are not eliminated. On October 23 2023 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 00:27 Cerebrate1 wrote:On October 22 2023 15:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Either way, all the Gazans go back to their land in the end. I must misunderstand what you mean by Israel turning at least some of Gaza into a DMZ? EDIT: It would likely involve trading all the land Israel took over in Gaza They can't trade it, wtf? The outskirts of Gaza are not populated. Adding a fence a little ways in from the existing fence is not going to displace any homes. That is the most likely DMZ. re:trade- I understand it doesn't make sense as an actual trade, I'm just saying how it would be framed for Hamas to be able to claim victory in scenario 2. Btw, Blinken just said that Israel will not occupy the land after the war, so you see that Israel did make private assurances of this to the US as I predicted they would. I don't know how far you mean by "a little ways" but "we're only forcibly expelling you to steal some of your land Asking Gazan civilians to leave the war zone has nothing to do with establishing the DMZ. The area around the border are unpopulated. Every Gazan could stay home and Israel could take that land and make a DMZ without bothering a single Gazan. But again, making a DMZ is not the primary goal of this opperation. and trade the rest back to you in exchange for something you don't have the power to give us" isn't the reassurance you seem to believe it is. Well, this theoretical contingency trade would be with Hamas, who do have the power to return the hostages. If your concern is that the average Gazan won't be persuaded by this, well, Israel is a country, not a used car salesman. Their goal is the well being of their citizens, not convincing other people that they are telling the truth. They've used automated phone calls, made pronouncements, and dropped leaflets. That is far more than any other country in the history of the planet has done to protect the citizens of a country that is at war with them, and to expect more is unreasonable. Your concept of this trade is completely nonsensical. Not just as an actual trade, but as the propaganda you're pitching too. I'm not sure what propaganda I'm pitching exactly. That Israel is a rational actor working to defend it's people? That they aren't all devils with horns out to kill non-Jews and take their land? I've seen some very clear propaganda saying the opposite types of things, but usually people don't use propaganda to humanize humans. Blinken has the same problem Israel and you do in that none of you know what "after the war/conflict" means while not reconciling how big of a problem that is when making Palestinian's returning home contingent on it. + Show Spoiler +That being said I wouldn't put it past Israel to pull some "oh no, you misunderstand, we're governing/settling Azzah". I should have clarified, but there is a very clear end condition to the war: eliminating Hamas as the governing body of Gaza. So best case in what you described,
It's interesting that you use this framing. I listed 2 possible scenarios, both of which involve all private Gazans getting their land back, so I'm not sure what the "worst case scenario" is that you are alluding to.
Israel only definitely steals "a little" of Gaza from the Palestinians
Again, individual Palestinians aren't losing their land here. The "state" as it were is, until such time as it can behave in a civilized way. Unless you are against the idea of a DMZ in general, which you should go tell to the South Koreans.
it's telling it's not going to do that to.
It's really not contradictory to say "civilians who flee now can return after the war" and "we are going to make a DMZ around the periphery of Gaza." I feel like you are intentionally failing to grasp that distinction for some reason.
Again, not the reassurance you seem to think it is.
If you could clarify who needs to be reassured by whom here, we could have a more productive conversation. Depending on the relevant parties, the type of reassurance is different, and I feel like you are mixing and matching them randomly. Do you want:
1. Me to reassure you that this is actually what Israel is likely to do?
2. Israel to reassure Gazan civilians that they'll be allowed back if they leave?
3. Israel to reassure you that they'll let the Gazans come back?
4. Me to reassure you that realistic and practical solutions to war are idyllic for all involved?
What I wanted clarity on is how much further from the interior barrier you are talking about Israel stealing. DMZ's can be miles wide
Unfortunately I am not an expert in the topography etc of Gaza to tell you exactly how and where they would designate this to be effective, but Israel said that people could go back, so obviously not miles wide.
As for the point about your concept of the trade being nonsensical as propaganda, it's absurd. Israel can't trade land they're not stealing in the first place or convince the people they're stealing it from that Israel did them favor by "returning" (less than all of) what they totally weren't stealing (but are definitely stealing some of).
It's nonsensical as a trade and nonsensical as propaganda to help end the ongoing massacre of Palestinians by Israel.
This question of yours is regarding my "scenario 2" only (recall that Scenario 1 involves giving all that land to the PA or someone else to govern). I believe I spoke this out already, but that scenario is no Israeli's goal. It's the "crap, we weren't able to stop Hamas, what do we do now to at least get whoever is left of the hostages out of their torture/rape situation." No one is selling scenario 2 to anyone as propaganda.
If you mean that Hamas won't be able to sell "we got most of our land back" to Gazans as a political win, that is a reasonable point.
I will point out that there is precedence for even that though.
Israel "traded" Egypt the Sinai Peninsula for a normalization agreement. It sounds like a silly trade since the Sinai was Egyptian not 10 years prior, but the trade undeniably took place and Egypt even celebrated with a naval parade through the Suez.
In the 2014 Gaza war, Israel sent ground forces, destroyed dozens of terror tunnels, thousands of rockets, and many Hamas militants and then withdrew when those objectives were achieved. Hamas declared victory for "repelling the Israeli invasion," i.e. they didn't gain anything, but they didn't lose as much as they could have, so they felt it was a victory worth boasting about to their people.
edit: formatting
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On October 23 2023 19:10 Nebuchad wrote:The acceleration of the last few days is perhaps best examplified by the National Security minister distributing a bunch of weapons to these settlers so they can "defend themselves" better while taking the land of Palestinians: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-says-10000-assault-rifles-purchased-for-civilian-security-teamsBezalel Smotrich, who is himself a settler and is currently the minister of Finance, is helpful when talking about this stuff because he's more open than most about being a fascist, so he has a bunch of quotes on his Wiki: in March 2023, speaking from a podium that depicted a map of Israel that incorporated Jordan and parts of Syria and Lebanon, he denied Palestinian identity, saying that there isn't any "Palestinian history or culture", continuing by saying that there is "no such thing as a Palestinian people". According to Ron Ben-Yishai, in his dual role as Finance Minister and adjunct Minister in the Ministry of Defense, Smotrich intends to implement ideas set forth in his “Decisive Plan” (2017) which, according to Ben-Yishai, foresees “flood(ing), simply so, the areas of Judea and Samaria with settlements and Jewish settlers. When this happens, the Palestinians are supposed to understand that they have no chance to get a state of their own and they would have to choose between one of the three options – a life of subjugation under Israeli rule, emigration or a Shahid (martyr) death”. As for Netanyahu himself, as mentioned several times earlier in the thread we have him talking about how Hamas is helpful to them because it makes it impossible for Palestine to establish a state, which can only be described as helpful if the project is ethnic cleansing in Palestine.That's why it's sometimes hard for me to keep my cool when I see people continuing to hold the line that Israel is just defending itself, it's not like I'm clever for seeing through it, they're not exactly subtle.
Smotrich's party has 7 out of 120 (less than 6%) seats in the Israeli Kenneset. That's a pretty small minority to form your beliefs about the whole of Israel from. Especially given that a much larger percent of Palestinians support Hamas than that. Unless of course, you believe that all Palestinians are Hamas.
As for this Netanyahu quote that keeps floating around the internet, here is a good Reddit comment by /u/AttapAMorgonen that shows the source of the alleged quote is pretty shaky:
So I've seen this quote paraded around all over reddit the past few days. And everytime, it's cited as "sources close to Netanyahu." But after a deep dive, the quote actually comes from Haim Ramon's book, where he is the literal only source of said quote.
And Ramon at the time of writing it had not served in the government since 2009, and certainly not in the Likud. Which certainly raises credibility issues regarding the quote.
Some articles have started adding comments like this: "These exact comments have not yet been confirmed by other sources." to this quote.
And the quote differs when you read it from different sources, for example, According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).
Note that the Jerusalem post actually got the source/origin correct, even down to the specific page in the book, and seems to have a better/more thorough translation and context than what OP posted here.
Just don't blindly trust quotes you find on the internet, especially when the originating document is the only known source, and it was written in Hebrew.
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On October 24 2023 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis? Presumably it wouldn't just be the US cutting off international relations between the West and Israel while arming Hamas like it was the Azov brigade. So I'd say not likely.
It wouldn't, however, be crazy to think that no one will put boots on the ground to save Israel from getting ganked by a half dozen Muslim neighbors who overwhelm her.
To elaborate a bit, it wouldn't go from the West being complicit in the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Palestinians to being complicit in the ethnic cleansing/genocide of Israelis.
I hope the argument you are making here is not that a genocide targeted against Jews would make you more comfortable.
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Northern Ireland25513 Posts
On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis?
There is no real conceivable way that power imbalance shifts, indeed when such a power imbalance does exist it should be somewhat incumbent on the wider international community to somewhat equalise it, which in this case has patently not happened.
The consequences of collectively awful policy for decades is a scenario we face nowadays that looks borderline impossible to peacefully resolve in any meaningful sense. I’d be very surprised if any kind of normalisation to any non borderline, or indeed not borderline genocidal intent comes on a timeline short of multiple decades
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On October 25 2023 15:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis? There is no real conceivable way that power imbalance shifts, indeed when such a power imbalance does exist it should be somewhat incumbent on the wider international community to somewhat equalise it, which in this case has patently not happened. The consequences of collectively awful policy for decades is a scenario we face nowadays that looks borderline impossible to peacefully resolve in any meaningful sense. I’d be very surprised if any kind of normalisation to any non borderline, or indeed not borderline genocidal intent comes on a timeline short of multiple decades
If pro-palestinian groups stopped focussing on clay and instead started to focus on the right for west bank palestinians to work (in Israel) and travel things could change drastically. Palestinians working in Israel has boosted the west bank economy significantly since wages are 2-4 times higher.
The further integration of a young and motivated workforce would be less controversial in Israel than settlements and palestinians with a good job would be unlikely to support terror. If the economic integration becomes tight enough it would give serious clout to pro-peace groups. In the end a "one and a half" state solution could probably be a realistic solution that makes everyone happy.
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On October 25 2023 16:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 15:04 WombaT wrote:On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis? There is no real conceivable way that power imbalance shifts, indeed when such a power imbalance does exist it should be somewhat incumbent on the wider international community to somewhat equalise it, which in this case has patently not happened. The consequences of collectively awful policy for decades is a scenario we face nowadays that looks borderline impossible to peacefully resolve in any meaningful sense. I’d be very surprised if any kind of normalisation to any non borderline, or indeed not borderline genocidal intent comes on a timeline short of multiple decades The further integration of a young and motivated workforce would be less controversial in Israel than settlements
What do you mean?
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On October 25 2023 16:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Palestinians working in Israel has boosted the west bank economy significantly since wages are 2-4 times higher. Are there enough jobs in Israel to invite a few dozens/hundreds thousands of (mostly) unskilled workers?
A sincere question, I don't know Israel's job market situation.
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On October 25 2023 20:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2023 16:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On October 25 2023 15:04 WombaT wrote:On October 24 2023 03:04 Falling wrote:On October 23 2023 15:48 WombaT wrote:On October 23 2023 02:14 JimmiC wrote:On October 23 2023 01:25 Mohdoo wrote:
When someone declares war against you, going easy and deciding to simply turn part of them into a DMZ rather than dumpstering is pity. Am I misreading? Is Hamas seeking coexistence with Jews and I just haven’t heard about it yet? No Hamas clear stated goal is genocide of all that do not fit their fanatical ideology, the only reason people do not think they are Nazi level evil is because of the power imbalance. They are out for killing Jews, Christian’s, Muslims different or more moderate, lgbtq+, atheists, Hindus, Buddists and anyone I may have missed. On top of this they treat women like property and non there kind of Muslim women worse. That organization is as bad as it gets in the world, and run by billionaire and millionaires that profit off the whole thing in the name of a warped version of faith. What billlionaires are ensonsed in Hamas exactly? And yes, they’re not good folks but the power imbalance isn’t some factor that can be waved away, it’s very pertinent. Folks like the Nazis had autonomy and pretty decent lives and actively chose to exterminate others for cultivated ideological reasons. People in Gaza effectively live in an open air prison with escape being difficult and no real prospects, so for them to turn to bitter resentment isn’t exactly equivalent But couldn't that simply genocide in search of an opportunity? There's a power imbalance and that curtails murderous intent (though arguably continually feeding the rage). However, if the power balance shifted significantly, do we immediately have a rerun of the Hutus against Tutsis? There is no real conceivable way that power imbalance shifts, indeed when such a power imbalance does exist it should be somewhat incumbent on the wider international community to somewhat equalise it, which in this case has patently not happened. The consequences of collectively awful policy for decades is a scenario we face nowadays that looks borderline impossible to peacefully resolve in any meaningful sense. I’d be very surprised if any kind of normalisation to any non borderline, or indeed not borderline genocidal intent comes on a timeline short of multiple decades The further integration of a young and motivated workforce would be less controversial in Israel than settlements What do you mean?
Most pro-palestinian groups want Israel to dismantle all settlements and forcibly move people to Israel. Obviously there hasn't been a political majority for this in Israel and it's unlikely to happen in the forseeable future, or at all.
There are about 70k palestinians working in Israel and 30k in settlements. Down from 140k from before the second intifada.
So obviously not controversial.
Stop pushing for shit that is unlikely to happen and focus on allowing people to work instead. Aim for half a million integrated workers. Would help the people working in Israel (2-4x higher income), the Palestinian state (tax revenue) and integration. If almost half of your population in the west bank depends on work in Israel there are a significant ammount of people with incentives for good relations.
If Palestinians are important to the Israeli economy and a significant part of your population has positive interactions with them it's a lot easier to tell the zionist nutjobs to fuck off with new settlements.
Of course your average pro-palestinian in the west are more intrested in what is theoretically right instead of what would improve living standards in the west bank.
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United States42831 Posts
On October 23 2023 03:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Israel literally fired at the crossing where aid goes through... and as a result injured 9 Egyptian soldiers.
There will be consequences but accidents do happen and nobody escalates things over accidents because there’s no upside to it. You escalate things to force a change of policy. In the case of accidents it was never policy in the first place, there’s nothing to change.
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other.
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On October 26 2023 00:15 KwarK wrote:
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other.
Especially when they are indiscriminately trying to level a place.
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United States42831 Posts
On October 26 2023 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2023 00:15 KwarK wrote:
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other. Especially when they are indiscriminately trying to level a place.
Israel has nukes. If it was trying to level Gaza with no other concerns it would have leveled it by now. Let’s try to keep our rhetoric realistic. They are clearly not trying to level the place indiscriminately.
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On October 26 2023 01:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2023 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 26 2023 00:15 KwarK wrote:
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other. Especially when they are indiscriminately trying to level a place. Israel has nukes. If it was trying to level Gaza with no other concerns it would have leveled it by now. Let’s try to keep our rhetoric realistic. They are clearly not trying to level the place indiscriminately. Because discriminately levelling a city is so much better.
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On October 26 2023 01:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2023 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 26 2023 00:15 KwarK wrote:
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other. Especially when they are indiscriminately trying to level a place. Israel has nukes. If it was trying to level Gaza with no other concerns it would have leveled it by now. Let’s try to keep our rhetoric realistic. They are clearly not trying to level the place indiscriminately.
I didn't say they had no other concerns.
International opinion has meaning for them.
Have you seen any pictures of Gaza? What do you think goes in to the decision of where to fire rockets? Are they trying to see which houses have children in them before they fire a rocket at it, to kill as many as possible? If not, and I assume they aren't, it seems pretty indiscriminate to me, either that or their 'precision accuracy' isn't quite as accurate as we're led to believe.
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United States42831 Posts
On October 26 2023 01:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2023 01:44 KwarK wrote:On October 26 2023 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 26 2023 00:15 KwarK wrote:
It’s surprisingly common for countries to accidentally fire at each other. Especially when they are indiscriminately trying to level a place. Israel has nukes. If it was trying to level Gaza with no other concerns it would have leveled it by now. Let’s try to keep our rhetoric realistic. They are clearly not trying to level the place indiscriminately. I didn't say they had no other concerns. International opinion has meaning for them. Have you seen any pictures of Gaza? What do you think goes in to the decision of where to fire rockets? Are they trying to see which houses have children in them before they fire a rocket at it, to kill as many as possible? If not, and I assume they aren't, it seems pretty indiscriminate to me, either that or their 'precision accuracy' isn't quite as accurate as we're led to believe.
If I was in a room with a man with a gun and he kept that gun holstered the entire time I would not be credible if I hysterically yelled that he was trying to kill me. Even if he punched me in the face.
I’m not saying Israel is a good guy, I’m saying that “indiscriminately trying to level the place” is hysterically excessive rhetoric.
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EPT
