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On November 22 2023 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Hamas advocates for killing all Jews on the planet. IDF does not advocate for killing all Muslims on the planet. Are we working with different assumptions here, or are you saying global genocide is morally equivalent to the IDF? Like I said, this is a non-stimulating discussion so I will end it here, but I just wanted to clarify what I see as a critical distinction and verify you are under the same impression when assessing IDF ethics.
I said it a while back that I believe there is no moral difference between the life of one person or the lives of a million people. The death of one person is equal to the death of a million people. This is my core ideology about the value of human life, and I hope it explains why I think the IDF can, certainly at this point and perhaps already long ago, reasonably be equated to Hamas.
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On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead?
That's a different argument. The Allies could've fought against the Axis powers without committing so many atrocities.
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On November 22 2023 07:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 07:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:28 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:36 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:31 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 05:29 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
The comparison to the Korean conflict is apt, and I'm somewhat surprised that you don't conclude that something similar would be achievable - if given a solid effort - with Israel and Palestinians. I believe it absolutely is. Seeing that South Korea manages to hold North Korea at bay, I wonder why Israel wouldn't be able to accomplish something similar with Hamas? Is that a good outcome for Palestinians or anyone ? Short term less people die but I hope we are shooting higher than complete subjugation of a population not to mention an ongoing threat of them starting a war back up at any moment. I mean, I do think it's preferable for people to be under a horrible regime that isn't bombarding them than to be bombarded by a different horrible regime. I don't know how else to put it. Wait Israel is as bad as North Korea? I do not think any of the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinians would take that trade. I'm not comparing Israel to North Korea. That was only my first comment (and I was comparing Israel to South Korea, because it was about their military might). South Korea is able to hold off North Korea. Likewise Israel should be able to hold off Hamas. My second comment was about Palestinians getting bombed (by Israel) vs not getting bombed (by Hamas). Despite both Israel and Hamas being horrible regimes, at least Hamas doesn't intend to bomb tens of thousands of Palestinians. No they kill them much more personally and only if they disobey their perverted version of religion. So far Israel is killing lots, but we have no idea how many are civilians vs fighters and we may never know. We also have no idea how many of the dead were killed directly by Hamas, either because they wouldn’t flee or because their rocket didn’t make it to Israel. Israel is not close to the same level of Hamas it is not remotely comparable. This is my huge issue with many of the people here you are starting from a position of Israel is evil and all their actions are evil with evil motivations. I start from the position that Israel is a democracy with all the good and bad that comes with it. The people there are a med as well and terrified and angry, as most of us would be if a friend, family member or someone we knew was killed by Hamas in the manner it happened. If this had happened to any other democratic country but Israel these are not the assumptions that would be made about them. Its possible for Hamas to be worse then Israel and for Israel to still be 'evil'. And if anyone other then Israel was doing what Israel is doing now the world would complain a whole hell of a lot more. Sure it is, a whole bunch of things are possible, such as much of what the far right believes. Just in cases that do not involve Israel people on the left do not treat the possibilities as fact. There is a shocking amount of evil stuff going on in the world every day, it just does not get the media attention. But this is all just stuff to distract from what are the non evil things for Israel to do and actually walking down that path to where it gets us. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Israel has plenty of other ways. We've been talking about this endlessly, and yet the same people keep returning to the same argument over and over again. Israel is not a mindless actor, they have agency. They don't have to keep doing what they're doing. If Israel has to accept casualties as a consequence of Hamas existing, then that might just be what it means to take the high road in this conflict. Until Israel is a force for good and not evil (I'm alluding to the oppression of Palestinians) I don't believe they're in a position to complain and argue that they have a right to kill thousands of Palestinians. My general point that seems to be getting missed is there is not a easy good decision for Israel to make that allows them to continue to live safe and free. Doing what they were doing before Oct 7th was also not considered good and it did not stop Oct 7th. So should they be more on the walls, listening, and whatever else they were up too? Less and just deal with the occasional massacre? Not exist at all? What other option does Israel have?
Accept the 1967 border, vacate all the settlements, prevent new settlements, don't oppress Palestinians in Israel and work with the Palestine government and the international community to improve the situation in Palestine.
Will it fix everything overnight? No ofcourse not. Will in fix things in the long run? Some hate towards Israel will probably always remain but it would go a very long way.
I think your going to have a hell of a lot more success trying to destroy a terrorist organisation by reducing discontent and removing the fertile recruitment grounds of an oppressed population then by trying to bomb the oppressed population into submission and a hell of a lot more morally acceptable them ethnic cleansings as we're seeing now with the forced displacement into an ever smaller piece of Gaza.
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On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead? Pretty sure WW2 would have been won without fire bombing Dresden to just name an example.
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On November 22 2023 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 07:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:28 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:36 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Is that a good outcome for Palestinians or anyone ? Short term less people die but I hope we are shooting higher than complete subjugation of a population not to mention an ongoing threat of them starting a war back up at any moment.
I mean, I do think it's preferable for people to be under a horrible regime that isn't bombarding them than to be bombarded by a different horrible regime. I don't know how else to put it. Wait Israel is as bad as North Korea? I do not think any of the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinians would take that trade. I'm not comparing Israel to North Korea. That was only my first comment (and I was comparing Israel to South Korea, because it was about their military might). South Korea is able to hold off North Korea. Likewise Israel should be able to hold off Hamas. My second comment was about Palestinians getting bombed (by Israel) vs not getting bombed (by Hamas). Despite both Israel and Hamas being horrible regimes, at least Hamas doesn't intend to bomb tens of thousands of Palestinians. No they kill them much more personally and only if they disobey their perverted version of religion. So far Israel is killing lots, but we have no idea how many are civilians vs fighters and we may never know. We also have no idea how many of the dead were killed directly by Hamas, either because they wouldn’t flee or because their rocket didn’t make it to Israel. Israel is not close to the same level of Hamas it is not remotely comparable. This is my huge issue with many of the people here you are starting from a position of Israel is evil and all their actions are evil with evil motivations. I start from the position that Israel is a democracy with all the good and bad that comes with it. The people there are a med as well and terrified and angry, as most of us would be if a friend, family member or someone we knew was killed by Hamas in the manner it happened. If this had happened to any other democratic country but Israel these are not the assumptions that would be made about them. Its possible for Hamas to be worse then Israel and for Israel to still be 'evil'. And if anyone other then Israel was doing what Israel is doing now the world would complain a whole hell of a lot more. Sure it is, a whole bunch of things are possible, such as much of what the far right believes. Just in cases that do not involve Israel people on the left do not treat the possibilities as fact. There is a shocking amount of evil stuff going on in the world every day, it just does not get the media attention. But this is all just stuff to distract from what are the non evil things for Israel to do and actually walking down that path to where it gets us. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Israel has plenty of other ways. We've been talking about this endlessly, and yet the same people keep returning to the same argument over and over again. Israel is not a mindless actor, they have agency. They don't have to keep doing what they're doing. If Israel has to accept casualties as a consequence of Hamas existing, then that might just be what it means to take the high road in this conflict. Until Israel is a force for good and not evil (I'm alluding to the oppression of Palestinians) I don't believe they're in a position to complain and argue that they have a right to kill thousands of Palestinians. My general point that seems to be getting missed is there is not a easy good decision for Israel to make that allows them to continue to live safe and free. Doing what they were doing before Oct 7th was also not considered good and it did not stop Oct 7th. So should they be more on the walls, listening, and whatever else they were up too? Less and just deal with the occasional massacre? Not exist at all? What other option does Israel have? Accept the 1967 border, vacate all the settlements, prevent new settlements, don't oppress Palestinians in Israel and work with the Palestine government and the international community to improve the situation in Palestine. Will it fix everything overnight? No ofcourse not. Will in fix things in the long run? Some hate towards Israel will probably always remain but it would go a very long way. I think your going to have a hell of a lot more success trying to destroy a terrorist organisation by reducing discontent and removing the fertile recruitment grounds of an oppressed population then by trying to bomb the oppressed population into submission and a hell of a lot more morally acceptable them ethnic cleansings as we're seeing now with the forced displacement into an ever smaller piece of Gaza.
Your solution is to ethnically cleanse the Jews?
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On November 22 2023 08:53 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:28 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:36 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:34 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I mean, I do think it's preferable for people to be under a horrible regime that isn't bombarding them than to be bombarded by a different horrible regime. I don't know how else to put it. Wait Israel is as bad as North Korea? I do not think any of the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinians would take that trade. I'm not comparing Israel to North Korea. That was only my first comment (and I was comparing Israel to South Korea, because it was about their military might). South Korea is able to hold off North Korea. Likewise Israel should be able to hold off Hamas. My second comment was about Palestinians getting bombed (by Israel) vs not getting bombed (by Hamas). Despite both Israel and Hamas being horrible regimes, at least Hamas doesn't intend to bomb tens of thousands of Palestinians. No they kill them much more personally and only if they disobey their perverted version of religion. So far Israel is killing lots, but we have no idea how many are civilians vs fighters and we may never know. We also have no idea how many of the dead were killed directly by Hamas, either because they wouldn’t flee or because their rocket didn’t make it to Israel. Israel is not close to the same level of Hamas it is not remotely comparable. This is my huge issue with many of the people here you are starting from a position of Israel is evil and all their actions are evil with evil motivations. I start from the position that Israel is a democracy with all the good and bad that comes with it. The people there are a med as well and terrified and angry, as most of us would be if a friend, family member or someone we knew was killed by Hamas in the manner it happened. If this had happened to any other democratic country but Israel these are not the assumptions that would be made about them. Its possible for Hamas to be worse then Israel and for Israel to still be 'evil'. And if anyone other then Israel was doing what Israel is doing now the world would complain a whole hell of a lot more. Sure it is, a whole bunch of things are possible, such as much of what the far right believes. Just in cases that do not involve Israel people on the left do not treat the possibilities as fact. There is a shocking amount of evil stuff going on in the world every day, it just does not get the media attention. But this is all just stuff to distract from what are the non evil things for Israel to do and actually walking down that path to where it gets us. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Israel has plenty of other ways. We've been talking about this endlessly, and yet the same people keep returning to the same argument over and over again. Israel is not a mindless actor, they have agency. They don't have to keep doing what they're doing. If Israel has to accept casualties as a consequence of Hamas existing, then that might just be what it means to take the high road in this conflict. Until Israel is a force for good and not evil (I'm alluding to the oppression of Palestinians) I don't believe they're in a position to complain and argue that they have a right to kill thousands of Palestinians. My general point that seems to be getting missed is there is not a easy good decision for Israel to make that allows them to continue to live safe and free. Doing what they were doing before Oct 7th was also not considered good and it did not stop Oct 7th. So should they be more on the walls, listening, and whatever else they were up too? Less and just deal with the occasional massacre? Not exist at all? What other option does Israel have? Accept the 1967 border, vacate all the settlements, prevent new settlements, don't oppress Palestinians in Israel and work with the Palestine government and the international community to improve the situation in Palestine. Will it fix everything overnight? No ofcourse not. Will in fix things in the long run? Some hate towards Israel will probably always remain but it would go a very long way. I think your going to have a hell of a lot more success trying to destroy a terrorist organisation by reducing discontent and removing the fertile recruitment grounds of an oppressed population then by trying to bomb the oppressed population into submission and a hell of a lot more morally acceptable them ethnic cleansings as we're seeing now with the forced displacement into an ever smaller piece of Gaza. Your solution is to ethnically cleanse the Jews? If you want to set a good example and take away some the bad blood you should probably give back the house you stole from its previous owner.
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On November 22 2023 08:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:53 RenSC2 wrote:On November 22 2023 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:28 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:36 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Wait Israel is as bad as North Korea? I do not think any of the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinians would take that trade.
I'm not comparing Israel to North Korea. That was only my first comment (and I was comparing Israel to South Korea, because it was about their military might). South Korea is able to hold off North Korea. Likewise Israel should be able to hold off Hamas. My second comment was about Palestinians getting bombed (by Israel) vs not getting bombed (by Hamas). Despite both Israel and Hamas being horrible regimes, at least Hamas doesn't intend to bomb tens of thousands of Palestinians. No they kill them much more personally and only if they disobey their perverted version of religion. So far Israel is killing lots, but we have no idea how many are civilians vs fighters and we may never know. We also have no idea how many of the dead were killed directly by Hamas, either because they wouldn’t flee or because their rocket didn’t make it to Israel. Israel is not close to the same level of Hamas it is not remotely comparable. This is my huge issue with many of the people here you are starting from a position of Israel is evil and all their actions are evil with evil motivations. I start from the position that Israel is a democracy with all the good and bad that comes with it. The people there are a med as well and terrified and angry, as most of us would be if a friend, family member or someone we knew was killed by Hamas in the manner it happened. If this had happened to any other democratic country but Israel these are not the assumptions that would be made about them. Its possible for Hamas to be worse then Israel and for Israel to still be 'evil'. And if anyone other then Israel was doing what Israel is doing now the world would complain a whole hell of a lot more. Sure it is, a whole bunch of things are possible, such as much of what the far right believes. Just in cases that do not involve Israel people on the left do not treat the possibilities as fact. There is a shocking amount of evil stuff going on in the world every day, it just does not get the media attention. But this is all just stuff to distract from what are the non evil things for Israel to do and actually walking down that path to where it gets us. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Israel has plenty of other ways. We've been talking about this endlessly, and yet the same people keep returning to the same argument over and over again. Israel is not a mindless actor, they have agency. They don't have to keep doing what they're doing. If Israel has to accept casualties as a consequence of Hamas existing, then that might just be what it means to take the high road in this conflict. Until Israel is a force for good and not evil (I'm alluding to the oppression of Palestinians) I don't believe they're in a position to complain and argue that they have a right to kill thousands of Palestinians. My general point that seems to be getting missed is there is not a easy good decision for Israel to make that allows them to continue to live safe and free. Doing what they were doing before Oct 7th was also not considered good and it did not stop Oct 7th. So should they be more on the walls, listening, and whatever else they were up too? Less and just deal with the occasional massacre? Not exist at all? What other option does Israel have? Accept the 1967 border, vacate all the settlements, prevent new settlements, don't oppress Palestinians in Israel and work with the Palestine government and the international community to improve the situation in Palestine. Will it fix everything overnight? No ofcourse not. Will in fix things in the long run? Some hate towards Israel will probably always remain but it would go a very long way. I think your going to have a hell of a lot more success trying to destroy a terrorist organisation by reducing discontent and removing the fertile recruitment grounds of an oppressed population then by trying to bomb the oppressed population into submission and a hell of a lot more morally acceptable them ethnic cleansings as we're seeing now with the forced displacement into an ever smaller piece of Gaza. Your solution is to ethnically cleanse the Jews? If you want to set a good example and take away some the bad blood you should probably give back the house you stole from its previous owner.
You mean the houses their ancestors built on the graves of Jews? Or should the Palestinians set a good example and give back the land they took from the Jews?
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On November 22 2023 00:07 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
credible?
Here's from Haaretz about what Israel built:
The Israeli civil administration in the territories constructed the hospital complex's Building Number 2, which has a large cement basement that housed the hospital's laundry and various administrative services.
During a cabinet meeting a week ago, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin said senior Hamas officials found refuge in the hospital basement because they know Israel would not target it, due to the patients in the upper floors. Palestinian sources told Haaretz that not all the senior Hamas leaders are hiding in one place.
Rather, they have spread out, and some are constantly changing locations. Some of the bunkers they are using were linked by tunnels Hamas built in recent years.
web.archive.org
On November 22 2023 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 07:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:28 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 07:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:36 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 06:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Is that a good outcome for Palestinians or anyone ? Short term less people die but I hope we are shooting higher than complete subjugation of a population not to mention an ongoing threat of them starting a war back up at any moment.
I mean, I do think it's preferable for people to be under a horrible regime that isn't bombarding them than to be bombarded by a different horrible regime. I don't know how else to put it. Wait Israel is as bad as North Korea? I do not think any of the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinians would take that trade. I'm not comparing Israel to North Korea. That was only my first comment (and I was comparing Israel to South Korea, because it was about their military might). South Korea is able to hold off North Korea. Likewise Israel should be able to hold off Hamas. My second comment was about Palestinians getting bombed (by Israel) vs not getting bombed (by Hamas). Despite both Israel and Hamas being horrible regimes, at least Hamas doesn't intend to bomb tens of thousands of Palestinians. No they kill them much more personally and only if they disobey their perverted version of religion. So far Israel is killing lots, but we have no idea how many are civilians vs fighters and we may never know. We also have no idea how many of the dead were killed directly by Hamas, either because they wouldn’t flee or because their rocket didn’t make it to Israel. Israel is not close to the same level of Hamas it is not remotely comparable. This is my huge issue with many of the people here you are starting from a position of Israel is evil and all their actions are evil with evil motivations. I start from the position that Israel is a democracy with all the good and bad that comes with it. The people there are a med as well and terrified and angry, as most of us would be if a friend, family member or someone we knew was killed by Hamas in the manner it happened. If this had happened to any other democratic country but Israel these are not the assumptions that would be made about them. Its possible for Hamas to be worse then Israel and for Israel to still be 'evil'. And if anyone other then Israel was doing what Israel is doing now the world would complain a whole hell of a lot more. Sure it is, a whole bunch of things are possible, such as much of what the far right believes. Just in cases that do not involve Israel people on the left do not treat the possibilities as fact. There is a shocking amount of evil stuff going on in the world every day, it just does not get the media attention. But this is all just stuff to distract from what are the non evil things for Israel to do and actually walking down that path to where it gets us. I don't understand why people keep saying this. Israel has plenty of other ways. We've been talking about this endlessly, and yet the same people keep returning to the same argument over and over again. Israel is not a mindless actor, they have agency. They don't have to keep doing what they're doing. If Israel has to accept casualties as a consequence of Hamas existing, then that might just be what it means to take the high road in this conflict. Until Israel is a force for good and not evil (I'm alluding to the oppression of Palestinians) I don't believe they're in a position to complain and argue that they have a right to kill thousands of Palestinians. My general point that seems to be getting missed is there is not a easy good decision for Israel to make that allows them to continue to live safe and free. Doing what they were doing before Oct 7th was also not considered good and it did not stop Oct 7th. So should they be more on the walls, listening, and whatever else they were up too? Less and just deal with the occasional massacre? Not exist at all? What other option does Israel have? Accept the 1967 border, vacate all the settlements, prevent new settlements, don't oppress Palestinians in Israel and work with the Palestine government and the international community to improve the situation in Palestine. Will it fix everything overnight? No ofcourse not. Will in fix things in the long run? Some hate towards Israel will probably always remain but it would go a very long way. I think your going to have a hell of a lot more success trying to destroy a terrorist organisation by reducing discontent and removing the fertile recruitment grounds of an oppressed population then by trying to bomb the oppressed population into submission and a hell of a lot more morally acceptable them ethnic cleansings as we're seeing now with the forced displacement into an ever smaller piece of Gaza.
And how do you deal with Hamas? They won't accept peace.
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On November 22 2023 08:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead? Pretty sure WW2 would have been won without fire bombing Dresden to just name an example. True and yet no one is calling the allies evil and most people here are calling me crazy (or much worse) for suggesting that Isreal is not. I’m not suggesting no one there is, I’m not suggesting they have not done anything wrong. In fact I’ve explicitly stated the opposite over and over again.
The only reason why the Allies weren't strictly evil is because we, today, have the power of hindsight. The Allies predicted that the civilian population would eventually turn against their leaders. That prediction turned out to be false. The Allies didn't have the same knowledge as we do today, so they were in a moral dilemma where they could reasonably argue that the utility of civilian bombing is overall positive, and if that were true then it could be morally justified to win the war against the Axis powers.
At least until Dresden. By that point there was no moral ambiguity anymore.
We, today, are armed with better knowledge and we should therefore act accordingly. And so should Israel. The utility of killing many thousands of civilians is always negative. Israel is not acting accordingly, they're not minimizing the civilian casualties. Netanjahu is falsely claiming that Israel is fighting for its existence. This is a lie. Hamas is militarily defeated and no longer poses a threat to the State of Israel - if they ever truly did to begin with. October 7 seems more like a fluke, not something that would become a regular phenomenon. So there is no threat to the state, and it's practically impossible to argue against that. Therefore the argument in favor of accepting more and more Palestinian civilian casualties loses from a utility perspective and consequently it loses morally as well.
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On November 22 2023 09:09 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:55 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead? Pretty sure WW2 would have been won without fire bombing Dresden to just name an example. True and yet no one is calling the allies evil and most people here are calling me crazy (or much worse) for suggesting that Isreal is not. I’m not suggesting no one there is, I’m not suggesting they have not done anything wrong. In fact I’ve explicitly stated the opposite over and over again. The only reason why the Allies weren't strictly evil is because we, today, have the power of hindsight. The Allies predicted that the civilian population would eventually turn against their leaders. That prediction turned out to be false. The Allies didn't have the same knowledge as we do today, so they were in a moral dilemma where they could reasonably argue that the utility of civilian bombing is overall positive, and if that were true then it could be morally justified to win the war against the Axis powers. At least until Dresden. By that point there was no moral ambiguity anymore. We, today, are armed with better knowledge and we should therefore act accordingly. And so should Israel. The utility of killing many thousands of civilians is always negative. Israel is not acting accordingly, they're not minimizing the civilian casualties. Netanjahu is falsely claiming that Israel is fighting for its existence. This is a lie. Hamas is militarily defeated and no longer poses a threat to the State of Israel - if they ever truly did to begin with. October 7 seems more like a fluke, not something that would become a regular phenomenon. So there is no threat to the state, and it's practically impossible to argue against that. Therefore the argument in favor of accepting more and more Palestinian civilian casualties loses from a utility perspective and consequently it loses morally as well.
Yes, problems that aren't taken care of have a tendency to just go away. Right? A problem that's not taken care of never gets worse, does it?
It's just a few random rockets and occasional terrorist attack. Take the occasional loss of life and do nothing. Okay. Oh, it's just 1400 people dead, take the loss and do nothing. Right? Where does it end?
Do you wait until you're dead to take action? Seems counterproductive.
We can make the comparison to North Korea. They were a technologically backwards country that the modern US could have flattened to force a regime change. Instead, we left them alone and they are now a nuclear power who someday could wipe a city off the map. It hasn't happened yet, but we allowed the problem to fester and now it's worse. Someday when the nukes fly, people will wonder why we didn't stop it when we could have.
Israel is choosing to act against evil. They're attacking the problem before it becomes an even bigger problem. You may not like the methods and that's totally fair, but to not even see the need is to be purposely blind.
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On November 22 2023 09:19 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 09:09 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:55 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead? Pretty sure WW2 would have been won without fire bombing Dresden to just name an example. True and yet no one is calling the allies evil and most people here are calling me crazy (or much worse) for suggesting that Isreal is not. I’m not suggesting no one there is, I’m not suggesting they have not done anything wrong. In fact I’ve explicitly stated the opposite over and over again. The only reason why the Allies weren't strictly evil is because we, today, have the power of hindsight. The Allies predicted that the civilian population would eventually turn against their leaders. That prediction turned out to be false. The Allies didn't have the same knowledge as we do today, so they were in a moral dilemma where they could reasonably argue that the utility of civilian bombing is overall positive, and if that were true then it could be morally justified to win the war against the Axis powers. At least until Dresden. By that point there was no moral ambiguity anymore. We, today, are armed with better knowledge and we should therefore act accordingly. And so should Israel. The utility of killing many thousands of civilians is always negative. Israel is not acting accordingly, they're not minimizing the civilian casualties. Netanjahu is falsely claiming that Israel is fighting for its existence. This is a lie. Hamas is militarily defeated and no longer poses a threat to the State of Israel - if they ever truly did to begin with. October 7 seems more like a fluke, not something that would become a regular phenomenon. So there is no threat to the state, and it's practically impossible to argue against that. Therefore the argument in favor of accepting more and more Palestinian civilian casualties loses from a utility perspective and consequently it loses morally as well. Yes, problems that aren't taken care of have a tendency to just go away. Right? A problem that's not taken care of never gets worse, does it? It's just a few random rockets and occasional terrorist attack. Take the occasional loss of life and do nothing. Okay. Oh, it's just 1400 people dead, take the loss and do nothing. Right? Where does it end? Do you wait until you're dead to take action? Seems counterproductive. We can make the comparison to North Korea. They were a technologically backwards country that the modern US could have flattened to force a regime change. Instead, we left them alone and they are now a nuclear power who someday could wipe a city off the map. It hasn't happened yet, but we allowed the problem to fester and now it's worse. Someday when the nukes fly, people will wonder why we didn't stop it when we could have. Israel is choosing to act against evil. They're attacking the problem before it becomes an even bigger problem. You may not like the methods and that's totally fair, but to not even see the need is to be purposely blind.
Yes, of course. If Palestinians are vermin, then Israel is allowed to keep bombarding them, and they're allowed to maintain the Apartheid forever until all of the land belongs to Jewish people.
Unfortunately for you I don't think Palestinians are vermin, but human. People like you and I who deserve to be treated accordingly. From that perspective such treatment is strictly always wrong.
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On November 22 2023 09:24 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 09:19 RenSC2 wrote:On November 22 2023 09:09 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:55 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 22 2023 08:14 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:11 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:02 JimmiC wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Which one is following the rules of war and which one is not? It is super easy tell them apart. Why do people think it is only a body count issue? If that was the case the Allies are one of the worst organizations of all time. The Allies committed many atrocities in WW2. Many. Yes, and would the world be better off if they did nothing instead? Pretty sure WW2 would have been won without fire bombing Dresden to just name an example. True and yet no one is calling the allies evil and most people here are calling me crazy (or much worse) for suggesting that Isreal is not. I’m not suggesting no one there is, I’m not suggesting they have not done anything wrong. In fact I’ve explicitly stated the opposite over and over again. The only reason why the Allies weren't strictly evil is because we, today, have the power of hindsight. The Allies predicted that the civilian population would eventually turn against their leaders. That prediction turned out to be false. The Allies didn't have the same knowledge as we do today, so they were in a moral dilemma where they could reasonably argue that the utility of civilian bombing is overall positive, and if that were true then it could be morally justified to win the war against the Axis powers. At least until Dresden. By that point there was no moral ambiguity anymore. We, today, are armed with better knowledge and we should therefore act accordingly. And so should Israel. The utility of killing many thousands of civilians is always negative. Israel is not acting accordingly, they're not minimizing the civilian casualties. Netanjahu is falsely claiming that Israel is fighting for its existence. This is a lie. Hamas is militarily defeated and no longer poses a threat to the State of Israel - if they ever truly did to begin with. October 7 seems more like a fluke, not something that would become a regular phenomenon. So there is no threat to the state, and it's practically impossible to argue against that. Therefore the argument in favor of accepting more and more Palestinian civilian casualties loses from a utility perspective and consequently it loses morally as well. Yes, problems that aren't taken care of have a tendency to just go away. Right? A problem that's not taken care of never gets worse, does it? It's just a few random rockets and occasional terrorist attack. Take the occasional loss of life and do nothing. Okay. Oh, it's just 1400 people dead, take the loss and do nothing. Right? Where does it end? Do you wait until you're dead to take action? Seems counterproductive. We can make the comparison to North Korea. They were a technologically backwards country that the modern US could have flattened to force a regime change. Instead, we left them alone and they are now a nuclear power who someday could wipe a city off the map. It hasn't happened yet, but we allowed the problem to fester and now it's worse. Someday when the nukes fly, people will wonder why we didn't stop it when we could have. Israel is choosing to act against evil. They're attacking the problem before it becomes an even bigger problem. You may not like the methods and that's totally fair, but to not even see the need is to be purposely blind. Yes, of course. If Palestinians are vermin, then Israel is allowed to keep bombarding them, and they're allowed to maintain the Apartheid forever until all of the land belongs to Jewish people. Unfortunately for you I don't think Palestinians are vermin, but human. People like you and I who deserve to be treated accordingly. From that perspective such treatment is strictly always wrong.
Look, I get that your grandfather was a Nazi, but you don't have to use their language. I certainly didn't. My issue is with Hamas and organizations like them. What Hamas is doing to the Palestinians in Gaza is terrible. If Hamas simply laid down their arms and surrendered, not a single other Palestinian would have to die. Unfortunately, that's not their goal. Their goal is the deaths of thousands of Palestinians and they are succeeding in that.
I continue to place the blame for all of this where it should be, on Hamas. I'm not even really pro-Israel or pro-IDF other than I believe they have a right to exist. I'm just anti-Hamas and believe the world should do what it takes to eliminate them.
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On November 22 2023 08:52 JimmiC wrote:
I also totally disagree with you post above. It is awful when anyone dies. But the person who walks someone to the gas chamber, or rapes repeatedly, further tortures till death is different than a person who fires a missile at a military target and kills a civilian.
There is differences between the civilians Russia has killed and the ones Ukraine has killed. Intent and context matter. That 2 civilians dying being equally tragic does not make the people who did it equal.
Look at satelitte pictures of Gaza before bombings and after.. dude do you even realize the amount of destruction that happened? I dont think so. Otherwise you wouldnt even dare to say this. It is simply untrue that the IDF is just firing missiles at military targets.
There are literally not as many terrorists on the entire planet let alone Gaza as missiles the IDF has shot in this war .. let alone combined over the decades now..
I am sorry but once again you are distorting reality as much as you think you can in order to fit ur narrative of "Israel is just doing what is simply must"..
Ive seen u state something along the meaning of "WHAT ELSE is israel supposed to do?" - you can not be serious.. you have no other ideas? Well I have plenty and so has the Internet. Use google..
Your Intent and Context matter example can be seen completely 100% the other way around too. People wo feel (not really that absurd) that Israel is occupying and Palestine/Gaza is occupied might say that it is more tragic that the occupied civilians lose their lifes because they arent the ones attacking but being attacked.
I made a very recent post in which I said that I feel like we think alike on this issue. I retract that statement.
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On November 22 2023 08:14 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Hamas advocates for killing all Jews on the planet. IDF does not advocate for killing all Muslims on the planet. Are we working with different assumptions here, or are you saying global genocide is morally equivalent to the IDF? Like I said, this is a non-stimulating discussion so I will end it here, but I just wanted to clarify what I see as a critical distinction and verify you are under the same impression when assessing IDF ethics. I said it a while back that I believe there is no moral difference between the life of one person or the lives of a million people. The death of one person is equal to the death of a million people. This is my core ideology about the value of human life, and I hope it explains why I think the IDF can, certainly at this point and perhaps already long ago, reasonably be equated to Hamas.
That’s fair and thank you for clarifying. You essentially “bin” results into groups rather than assessing relative intensity, which I honestly do see merit in. If consciously being unethical is unacceptable, it logically follows that killing 1 person is equally unacceptable when compared to 1 million. Both cases should be treated as untenable so the relative values are not a valid consideration.
I agree with you when it pertains to situations where zero death is obtainable. And I of course think zero death is actually obtainable in practice so long as you can convince all the right people. May I ask how you view situations where it’s already known this level of influence or impact is not achievable?
It feels like you are perhaps a bit stubborn in your assertion that death is always avoidable, but in situations with bad actors or distorted minds, or other factors, I am sure you agree there have been times in history where a person is an ethical observer and does all they can to prevent death, but it happens anyway due to factors they are literally physically unable to overcome.
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On November 22 2023 09:30 RenSC2 wrote:
If Hamas simply laid down their arms and surrendered, not a single other Palestinian would have to die.
It must be so comforting to live in Fantasy land.
Unfortunately, that's not their goal. Their goal is the deaths of thousands of Palestinians and they are succeeding in that.
No it is not. It is a thing they willingly accept as collateral damage. Stop lying please.
I continue to place the blame for all of this where it should be, on Hamas. I'm not even really pro-Israel or pro-IDF other than I believe they have a right to exist. I'm just anti-Hamas and believe the world should do what it takes to eliminate them.
You are so little pro Israel that the last time you interacted in this topic.. you in fact decided to equate DEFENDING with ATTACKING to fit ur narrative..
Lies or Stupidity.. which is it my friend?
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On November 22 2023 09:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 08:14 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 08:00 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2023 07:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 22 2023 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Equating Israel and Hamas is definitely lazy at best and dishonest at worst. Its easy to use the standard muddying strategies of "but they both kill people and want the other one totally removed from the same piece of land", but they are simply not the same. There is value in remembering there are enormous differences between the stated goals, methods used, and the way they each provide for and protect their citizens. Hamas's perspectives on "martyrdom" and "should an elected government provide for their citizens" are pretty notable differences.
Regardless, the comparison isn't a worthwhile use of anyone's time. It is just a long chain of people saying "yeah but" in response to each other. It doesn't need to be a fighting game tier list. So while I don't think there is value in creating some data table comparing the 2, it is for sure worth pointing out they are not morally equivalent. Why is it lazy and dishonest to compare Israel and Hamas? What the IDF has been doing in the last few weeks is an absolute atrocity, I can only call it a crime against humanity. I said equate, not compare. I see your location is listed as Austria and I have no idea how much English you know, and I am not trying to be rude here or whatever, but equate means they are identical. Compare indicates they have similarities. I agree they can of course be compared. But equated, absolutely not. That's why I said Israel kills people and is unethical and whatnot. They are morally imperfect in a range of ways, but they don't even approach the summary of the stated goals of Hamas. I'm not convinced anymore that the IDF can't be equated to Hamas. Hamas advocates for killing all Jews on the planet. IDF does not advocate for killing all Muslims on the planet. Are we working with different assumptions here, or are you saying global genocide is morally equivalent to the IDF? Like I said, this is a non-stimulating discussion so I will end it here, but I just wanted to clarify what I see as a critical distinction and verify you are under the same impression when assessing IDF ethics. I said it a while back that I believe there is no moral difference between the life of one person or the lives of a million people. The death of one person is equal to the death of a million people. This is my core ideology about the value of human life, and I hope it explains why I think the IDF can, certainly at this point and perhaps already long ago, reasonably be equated to Hamas. That’s fair and thank you for clarifying. You essentially “bin” results into groups rather than assessing relative intensity, which I honestly do see merit in. If consciously being unethical is unacceptable, it logically follows that killing 1 person is equally unacceptable when compared to 1 million. Both cases should be treated as untenable so the relative values are not a valid consideration. I agree with you when it pertains to situations where zero death is obtainable. And I of course think zero death is actually obtainable in practice so long as you can convince all the right people. May I ask how you view situations where it’s already known this level of influence or impact is not achievable? It feels like you are perhaps a bit stubborn in your assertion that death is always avoidable, but in situations with bad actors or distorted minds, or other factors, I am sure you agree there have been times in history where a person is an ethical observer and does all they can to prevent death, but it happens anyway due to factors they are literally physically unable to overcome.
I actually don't think deaths are at all avoidable in the case of this conflict, neither Israeli nor Palestinian. There's no chance that Hamas will just lay down their weapons if Palestinians are no longer oppressed.
I'm arguing for goodness for the sake of goodness and not for any utility reasons. Moral actions are always right unless there's a moral dilemma which must be strongly substantiated. In this conflict I believe Israel is hypocritical. They could work towards a more moral and more just world for Palestinians, but they're not doing it, and when a group like Hamas pops up they argue that they're justified in killing many innocent Palestinians despite not allowing for Hamas to inflict the same harm onto them. This is a classic point of view oppressors take. While they continue to bully the victim, the victim is never allowed to lash out in return.
Therefore, in my eyes, Hamas becomes a logical consequence. It's the consequence of an impossible situation for Palestinians. They can't fight, they can't escape, they can't stay. What can they do? Absolutely nothing. And no one is helping them.
It's very hard to argue that Israel isn't creating and escalating this conflict (in several ways). I think that's what they're doing. Only when they acknowledge that can the future look more promising for Palestinians. And I can tell from my own life experience that abused people who behave like monsters can turn into the greatest beings on the planet - if only they're being treated like respectable humans.
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