EPT2020 Presidential Debate - Page 47
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12562 Posts
On October 24 2020 10:04 Starlightsun wrote: I really can't see the Democrats are no different than Republicans stuff. Even if Revolution is the goal, isn't it easier to seek that in a government which isn't inclined to autocracy and violently repressing protest? Or on abortion and gay rights, isn't a party that determines policy based on Christian fundamentalism clearly a greater obstacle than one that does not? I do share the frustration that Democrats pay empty lip service, but they seem at least a better starting point of pushing changes than the conditions of the past four years. Unless the spark of change wanted is pushing people into such misery that they take up arms? I don't argue that Republicans and Democrats are the same but it's worth noting that if we don't want a revolution then it's going to be very hard to obtain anything under Biden. Any move to push him to his left runs the risk of weakening him, and if he gets weak, then the fascist that they'll have instead of Trump in 2024 will be the one most likely to benefit. I would personally favor antisystem solutions so I'm "fine" with that risk, but the people who don't and still want progress are going to run into this issue and I don't see any solutions available. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
On October 24 2020 02:57 KwarK wrote: Here is a reminder that after starting a trade war with a large number of tariffs on Chinese imports Trump still doesn’t know what a tariff is. Can any Trump supporters defend this? How is it okay that we have a leader enacting policy that he clearly doesn’t understand? It’s not about whether you support the tariffs or not, it’s about whether the guy writing the tariffs should be required to know what a tariff is. For the record, it’s basically a surcharge tax on Chinese goods sold in the US to make them more expensive for US consumers and therefore less desirable relative to US manufactured goods. What is there to defend if you're not going to post the full quote? .Talking about China devaluing their currency was a lead-in to them dumping cheap steel into the US market. He talked about tariffs on Chinese steel imports in the next paragraph. Out of all the stuff to get worked up over you chose this? C'mon man! | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On October 24 2020 11:30 AirbladeOrange wrote: Do any conservatives, republicans, or Trump voters post here? only gamers post here | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On October 24 2020 10:27 Nebuchad wrote: I don't argue that Republicans and Democrats are the same but it's worth noting that if we don't want a revolution then it's going to be very hard to obtain anything under Biden. Any move to push him to his left runs the risk of weakening him, and if he gets weak, then the fascist that they'll have instead of Trump in 2024 will be the one most likely to benefit. I would personally favor antisystem solutions so I'm "fine" with that risk, but the people who don't and still want progress are going to run into this issue and I don't see any solutions available. The problem is this is a circular argument. Strong left candidates just don't fly in America. You can blame what you like, but the people had two cracks at Bernie and didn't vote for him enough. How can you get the change you want when someone comes along proposing it... and he doesn't get the votes? Ultimately the conclusion of this argument has to be 'just let the Republicans win because it makes no difference'. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12562 Posts
On October 24 2020 11:39 iamthedave wrote: The problem is this is a circular argument. Strong left candidates just don't fly in America. You can blame what you like, but the people had two cracks at Bernie and didn't vote for him enough. How can you get the change you want when someone comes along proposing it... and he doesn't get the votes? Ultimately the conclusion of this argument has to be 'just let the Republicans win because it makes no difference'. I'm just answering the claim that it's going to be easier to seek any leftist achievements under Biden, that's all. For my big picture I'm entirely convinced that any country that has a neoliberal framework (ie where the left is represented by a (neo)liberal and the right is a far right nutjob, fascist or otherwise) can't achieve anything remotely leftwing without breaking that framework first. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24384 Posts
On October 24 2020 11:47 Nebuchad wrote: I'm just answering the claim that it's going to be easier to seek any leftist achievements under Biden, that's all. For my big picture I'm entirely convinced that any country that has a neoliberal framework (ie where the left is represented by a (neo)liberal and the right is a far right nutjob, fascist or otherwise) can't achieve anything remotely leftwing without breaking that framework first. This is a key fundamental disagreement between the left and neoliberals as I see it. They want to preserve the framework knowing how ineffective it's been at things like addressing foundational issues for any significant change like reducing the wealth gap between Black and white citizens over the last 60 years or so, as well as policy with overwhelming bipartisan public support for decades like gun reforms. I agree more or less with gor that it will require even more disruptive protests than we saw immediately after George Floyd was murdered on film in broad daylight. I disagree with people that don't recognize that BLM and the violent suppression of them started under Obama (and was unacceptable to conscientious folks imo then) and certainly won't stop (or be better than Obama) under Biden . | ||
KwarK
United States44368 Posts
On October 24 2020 10:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: What is there to defend if you're not going to post the full quote? .Talking about China devaluing their currency was a lead-in to them dumping cheap steel into the US market. He talked about tariffs on Chinese steel imports in the next paragraph. Out of all the stuff to get worked up over you chose this? C'mon man! The full quote changes nothing. Do you know how tariffs work? What he said is factually untrue. It's like if he started talking about how women are sticking coathangers into their cloacas to abort 2 year olds. It's just not right. There's no context that could make it right. The fundamental facts are incompatible with the words he is using. The money does not come from China, it comes from US consumers. The Chinese government did not write the US a check for the tariffs. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On October 24 2020 09:52 greenturtle23 wrote: This is true, but it is better than the Republican side of opposing it despite being popular. They oppose it because said position is popular with their own core support base (mainly evangelicals). True, Democrats caught on once their own base became overwhelmingly in favor, but "social justice - if it polls well" is a hilariously uninspiring endorsement for anyone who isn't just looking to contort the facts to justify the status quo. I mean you do have people like Bernie Sanders who supported it since 1995, back when it was politically harmful to do so, so it's at least theoretically possible to be ahead of the public opinion. Right now, Democrats seem more concerned with trying to prove that they're good Republicans so the "conservatives who don't like Trump" base will vote for them than with making any actual forward progress. | ||
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
On October 24 2020 13:25 LegalLord wrote: They oppose it because said position is popular with their own core support base (mainly evangelicals). True, Democrats caught on once their own base became overwhelmingly in favor, but "social justice - if it polls well" is a hilariously uninspiring endorsement for anyone who isn't just looking to contort the facts to justify the status quo. I mean you do have people like Bernie Sanders who supported it since 1995, back when it was politically harmful to do so, so it's at least theoretically possible to be ahead of the public opinion. Right now, Democrats seem more concerned with trying to prove that they're good Republicans so the "conservatives who don't like Trump" base will vote for them than with making any actual forward progress. I agree with all of that which is why when the choice was Bernie vs Biden I choose Bernie. He unfortunately lost. Now the choice is between Biden and Trump. It is an easy choice. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On October 24 2020 10:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: In an interesting development Team Trumpism is throwing Lindsey Graham to the wolves, with Lou Dobbs attacking him and saying not to vote for him. Poor Graham put all his principles aside to kiss Trump's ass for years but apparently he's out now? https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/status/1319749236251070466 Wow I did not expect this to be as clear and devastating as it is. This is like throwing him under the bus and then throwing the planet the road is on, under the sun, then eliminating that solar system from existence. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24384 Posts
Democrats seem more concerned with trying to prove that they're good Republicans so the "conservatives who don't like Trump" base will vote for them than with making any actual forward progress. This. Biden shouldn't be being compared to Trump, but to Obama if people want to argue that lesser evil incrementalism in the US isn't a road to hell paved with "good intentions" and "hope". That's one reason why the "Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same" strawman is used in place of the actual arguments about their functional similarities and what should be (imo) the unacceptable nature of them and their inability to confront the dire challenges we face (regardless of their differences, which do obviously exist). | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On October 24 2020 13:30 greenturtle23 wrote: I agree with all of that which is why when the choice was Bernie vs Biden I choose Bernie. He unfortunately lost. Now the choice is between Biden and Trump. It is an easy choice. I don't begrudge anyone for choosing to vote Biden now that it's down to him or Trump. That's not the choice I made (I ultimately went with 3rd party), but I don't think everyone needs to do the same thing I do. Being particularly holier-than-thou about how you're one of the bad people if you don't make the "only acceptable choice" of voting Biden is grossly misguided, though. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On October 24 2020 10:27 Nebuchad wrote: I don't argue that Republicans and Democrats are the same but it's worth noting that if we don't want a revolution then it's going to be very hard to obtain anything under Biden. Any move to push him to his left runs the risk of weakening him, and if he gets weak, then the fascist that they'll have instead of Trump in 2024 will be the one most likely to benefit. I would personally favor antisystem solutions so I'm "fine" with that risk, but the people who don't and still want progress are going to run into this issue and I don't see any solutions available. I would hope that as millennials become majority of the electorate, it won't be considered weakening to go left. It will be interesting to see if the Democrat party changes when Pelosi and Schumer finally retire someday, and if Biden stays true to his word that he is a transitional president to the next generation. If he even wins this election, that is. | ||
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
On October 24 2020 13:51 LegalLord wrote: I don't begrudge anyone for choosing to vote Biden now that it's down to him or Trump. That's not the choice I made (I ultimately went with 3rd party), but I don't think everyone needs to do the same thing I do. Being particularly holier-than-thou about how you're one of the bad people if you don't make the "only acceptable choice" of voting Biden is grossly misguided, though. I don't view people hat don't vote for Biden as bad people. I think voting for him is the correct choice, but I understand that others may not see it that way. In a non swing state it doesn't even mater. Let's hope a Bernie or Bernie like candidate comes along in 2024. Biden may be too old to run again even if he wins his year. | ||
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