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On November 20 2019 03:28 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 03:20 GoTuNk! wrote:Feel free to post questions, I will do my best to separate facts from opinions stating them clearly (as I did with the death count part). That said, all posters are biased so you can think by yourselves  Do you think there's anything Piñera can put on the table to calm protests?
Yes.
At first he changed his ministries and anounced a lot of welfare measure the first 2 weeks, sadly, they were largely ineffective.
Last tueday was the peak of violence, and lots of people were asking for "emergency state" where the military take over security and constitutional rights are suspended temporally. Also many people would oppose this and it would scalate the conflict for political reasons, there is a political animosity towards the military because of the military government despite it being 30 years ago. It would def have been an scalation in the conflict. See Faruko's post.
That same tuesday, instead, the president proposed a "peace agreement" and what I will call "democratic left", two days later, joined him in an agreement calling for "peace" and stablishing a process for a new constitution.
This worked pretty well in my opinion, violence has gone down but is still going on. I think the extreme left will go for a new surge of violence, as they did last tuesday, soon.
It also split the left between what I define loosely as the democratic left and the extreme left (comunist party and suporters with anarquist groups)
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On November 20 2019 04:18 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 03:20 GoTuNk! wrote:I simply want to point out Faruko is a supporter of the comunist party's point of view, with less than 5% support in the last election. Not any left wing politicians aside from the actual comunist party and a few other supporters want our DULY ELECTED DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT FROM 2 YEARS AGO to resign. The police brutality thing is blown massively out of proportion and dishonest people like Faruko and his propaganda want to place all 22 dead on the government. Truth is that with current data only 5 people have been shot by the police/military on to be determined circumstances, most likely involving lootings and or direct atacks to the police, but we know WITH CERTAINTY (we even have the videos) that 12-15 people died in fires in the same lootings, 2 people were run over by a drunk driver, 1 people was run over in a looting by a military vehicle, etc. One person was stabbed to death by looters when defending his small business, not sure if he is added to this 22 fake number of people "killed by the government" Police brutality is obviously bound to happen with the amount of rioting and violence going on, the amount of police of the streets and the severity of the atacks towards police, private and public property and people, but saying it is a state policy to opress people protesting peacefully is simply not true. I don't have the time now, but tons of videos are available about the violent crimes going on that are not "peaceful protests" and of the police being atacked and them not defending themselves, to the extreme point most of the anglo-saxon poster on this forum would look at them and say: wtf why isn't the police using his service gun to defend himself. I'll bring some videos to the forum later. Feel free to post questions, I will do my best to separate facts from opinions stating them clearly (as I did with the death count part). That said, all posters are biased so you can think by yourselves This is the most outrageous shit i've read in a while And no, i'm no communist, and yes, kids have been shot, 12 YEAR OLD GIRL WAS SHOT! Are you saying that we deserved to be shot, killed, violated and deshumanized by the police? this is incredibly. And no, the number is not fake, i'm a bit shocked to see this kind of response, go out and smell the coffee. there's even international NGOs looking at Chile Oh and by the way, do you know that cops don't follow protocols, they are using ammunition that's not allowed? did you know that cops are using fake names so they can't be identified? Did you realize that the tear gas they are suing is out of date and chemically speaking ends up in cyanide? The other fucking day they were shooting at my fucking building, literally aiming at the windows, and byt they way they should fire to the feets or up in the air, if that's the case, tell me how people lose their eyes There's countless of videos of the cops and military abusing their strenght, sure there's violence, but wtf do you want? for once, the strenght is not equal, not by a long shot, and these people have been getting hammered for 30 years, of course it's their way to response And, this is fun, i can't remember people accepting the ELECTED DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT back in 73, and another thing that's funny, 4 big left wing parties just signed a letter to accuse the president, so you can't scratch that one out too And come the FUCKING ON, of course this is not a neoliberalism movement but it's not communist either. wtf, have you ever been to Plaza Italia or something, even talk with someone?, it's a move to recover our fucking dignity that has been destroyed for 30 fucking years, there's millions out there marching. If you lie down with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas.
Yes, the total kill count is pretty well stablished and documented, you are posting made up numbers because the government did not kill 22 people so far. THAT IS NOT TRUE.
If you stop ranting and actually read what I posted, I said police brutality was def going on. There is a violent climate where tons of people will overstep their boundaries, and lots of people roaming the street get caught up in cross fire between police and people atacking them.
I've also been atacked by thugs 20 meters from my house, and a school classmate was at his apartment with his mom and sister, while 4 people threw rocks at the window shouting "te vamos a matar cuico culiao" (we are going to kill you fucking wealthy) for a long 10 mins before the police arrived.
1973 is past bullshit, I don't care what anyone thinks about it, in the present moment Sebastian Piñera is the democratically elected president with the biggest popular vote since we have voluntary voting.
The equivalent of our house of representatives has 140 people, the "constitutional accussation" against the president was signed by ELEVEN people.
Unlike you, who are a hardcore leftist, I don't pretend to be unbiased and try to misguide an international forum.
"it's a move to recover our fucking dignity that has been destroyed for 30 fucking years, there's millions out there marching" is what I mean by hardcore leftism. Civilized people in civilized countries go out and vote on periodically held elections, and when they lost they accept it instead of engaging in destructive violence, or encouraging or supporting it. Also, you are not a million people now, and every day more people are fed up with this crazyness. And if you were, there are also another 17 million people at their homes, who also have a voice and deserve to be heard.
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Here is a pretty balanced update on what is currently happening in Bolivia, it sounds like some concessions will be made to Morales if he can return it to peace. The blockades appear to be hurting the poor the most, so the political scientist in the article thinks they will hurt MAS in the new elections. Groups that used to be big Morales supporters are now against him and MAS, the big unions, university students so on. He still has very strong support from coaca farmers, most of the indigenous (though some stoped supporting him as he has allowed environmental damage, supported luxury condos so on) and the general rural populous.
I think it is kind of interesting how in the US and canada the rural areas are generally very conservative and the urban that tend to more left, but in Bolivia it is completely the opposite.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/11/shortages-grip-bolivia-government-struggles-unrest-191119193742849.html
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On November 20 2019 07:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 07:19 Sermokala wrote:On November 19 2019 23:46 Faruko wrote:On November 19 2019 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
Who is calling the protests in Chile a coup? Some people are saying that we are getting paid by either Venezuela or Russia Yes, they are that stupid. Do people think this is an American sponsored/run/trained coup going on? Not in Chile, it is Venezuela and Bolivia where that conspiracy is floated. Basically if a Leftist government is overthrown it is a US lead conspiracy and if it is a right wing one it is Cuba, Venezuela, Russia or China behind it.
There's no question the failed coup in Venezuela was supported heavily by the US. The coup in Bolivia is supported by the US but it's not like it's US funding death squads to install a military dictatorship like they did famously in Chile.
There are degrees to this stuff.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/B5ETcmEBVWm/
This is an atack on the police TODAY. What would the police do in any anglo saxon country?
Edited the post because I think they actually had their service guns on the car and used them, I think to the the air to scare people away because no one was injured. I don't think the anti riot guns were used in this situation.
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On November 20 2019 10:13 GoTuNk! wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/B5ETcmEBVWm/This is an atack on the police TODAY, not a single shot was fired. What would the police do in any anglo saxon country? Edits: The cops are not even carrying real weapons I think, only anti riot police have rifles that throw "rubber bullets" which are not lethal (they can cause lost vision if they hit the eye though, which is why 200+ people have reported eye injuries with around 25 losing one eye and I think a couple losing two eyes)
Sound like real weapons to me, less lethal ones, but real weapons nonetheless.
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On November 20 2019 10:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 10:13 GoTuNk! wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/B5ETcmEBVWm/This is an atack on the police TODAY, not a single shot was fired. What would the police do in any anglo saxon country? Edits: The cops are not even carrying real weapons I think, only anti riot police have rifles that throw "rubber bullets" which are not lethal (they can cause lost vision if they hit the eye though, which is why 200+ people have reported eye injuries with around 25 losing one eye and I think a couple losing two eyes) Sound like real weapons to me, less lethal ones, but real weapons nonetheless.
I don't want to engage you in political discourse honestly, but since this is a technical question I have no problem elaborating.
Criminal gangs atacking the police are using metal or wooden shields and throwing rocks plus sometimes molotovs at them in large numbers. Many eye injuries are the results of rubber bullets sneaking through the shields to the only exposed area.
With actual firearms, even pistols, the shields would be of no use, obviously.
Rocks are real guns aswell, it was figurative speech for firearm.
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On November 20 2019 10:34 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 10:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 20 2019 10:13 GoTuNk! wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/B5ETcmEBVWm/This is an atack on the police TODAY, not a single shot was fired. What would the police do in any anglo saxon country? Edits: The cops are not even carrying real weapons I think, only anti riot police have rifles that throw "rubber bullets" which are not lethal (they can cause lost vision if they hit the eye though, which is why 200+ people have reported eye injuries with around 25 losing one eye and I think a couple losing two eyes) Sound like real weapons to me, less lethal ones, but real weapons nonetheless. I don't want to engage you in political discourse honestly, but since this is a technical question I have no problem elaborating. Criminal gangs atacking the police are using metal or wooden shields and throwing rocks plus sometimes molotovs at them in large numbers. Many eye injuries are the results of rubber bullets sneaking through the shields to the only exposed area. With actual firearms, even pistols, the shields would be of no use, obviously. Rocks are real guns aswell, it was figurative speech for firearm.
Presumably the police are losing eyes and being killed too, to make their response proportional rather than an escalation?
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On November 20 2019 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 07:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2019 07:19 Sermokala wrote:On November 19 2019 23:46 Faruko wrote:On November 19 2019 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
Who is calling the protests in Chile a coup? Some people are saying that we are getting paid by either Venezuela or Russia Yes, they are that stupid. Do people think this is an American sponsored/run/trained coup going on? Not in Chile, it is Venezuela and Bolivia where that conspiracy is floated. Basically if a Leftist government is overthrown it is a US lead conspiracy and if it is a right wing one it is Cuba, Venezuela, Russia or China behind it. There's no question the failed coup in Venezuela was supported heavily by the US. The coup in Bolivia is supported by the US but it's not like it's US funding death squads to install a military dictatorship like they did famously in Chile. There are degrees to this stuff.
Considering the military was never involved, no matter how many times you say it there was no Coup in Venezuela. There was a failed attempted uprising to unseat a dictator, one that was supported by almost every democracy that picked a side. Trying to unseat a dictator that killed unarmed indigenous trying to get food. And then defended it by saying the food was guns, which it was not and you also defended it in the same way. Because you drink up the dictator favored propaganda. He also has killed 1000's for not supporting, withholds food if you disagree and many many other crimes outlined by a leftist from the US in her report.
It is hard to take much of what you say serious when you are now claiming to support the poor and indigenous when constantly defend a man who ordered them shot dead and keeps food from them. Stop with the lies, try to use a little bit of critical thinking instead of just always believing that the US is only evil and the root of all problems, it is so tiring.
Like how now you are so against the police using beanbags and taking out peoples eyes but maduro using bullets and torture is fine.
You have zero moral high ground, stop the shit.
Edit: unlike you I can be against police brutality in Chile because I was also against it Venezuela, I don't support brutality just because the guy says he is a socialist and that he has to because of the us boogyman. It is wrong no matter the justification.
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On November 20 2019 10:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 20 2019 07:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2019 07:19 Sermokala wrote:On November 19 2019 23:46 Faruko wrote:On November 19 2019 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
Who is calling the protests in Chile a coup? Some people are saying that we are getting paid by either Venezuela or Russia Yes, they are that stupid. Do people think this is an American sponsored/run/trained coup going on? Not in Chile, it is Venezuela and Bolivia where that conspiracy is floated. Basically if a Leftist government is overthrown it is a US lead conspiracy and if it is a right wing one it is Cuba, Venezuela, Russia or China behind it. There's no question the failed coup in Venezuela was supported heavily by the US. The coup in Bolivia is supported by the US but it's not like it's US funding death squads to install a military dictatorship like they did famously in Chile. There are degrees to this stuff. Considering the military was never involved, no matter how many times you say it there was no Coup in Venezuela. There was a failed attempted uprising to unseat a dictator, one that was supported by almost every democracy that picked a side. Trying to unseat a dictator that killed unarmed indigenous trying to get food. And then defended it by saying the food was guns, which it was not and you also defended it in the same way. Because you drink up the dictator favored propaganda. He also has killed 1000's for not supporting, withholds food if you disagree and many many other crimes outlined by a leftist from the US in her report. It is hard to take much of what you say serious when you are now claiming to support the poor and indigenous when constantly defend a man who ordered them shot dead and keeps food from them. Stop with the lies, try to use a little bit of critical thinking instead of just always believing that the US is only evil and the root of all problems, it is so tiring. Like how now you are so against the police using beanbags and taking out peoples eyes but maduro using bullets and torture is fine. You have zero moral high ground, stop the shit.
The military doesn't have to be involved to be a coup, but their refusing Guaido and US attempts to make it a coup is one reason why I call it a failed coup. Failed US backed regime change works too though for people hung up on the specific word of "coup"
I think it's obvious which of us is more susceptible to propaganda. You asking if Chilean protestors would want the military to remove their president strikes me as shocking for example.
Either quote me saying that Maduro using bullets and torture is fine or apologize for such a heinous and unfounded accusation.
You have zero moral high ground, stop the shit.
You should listen to yourself more often.
The last thing I'll say to you for a while is that the neoliberal/centrist insistence on equating the left and far right is one of the most dangerous arguments they employ
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Brazilian and Mexican media are reporting the military killed Morales' dog and ran it over with a tank
The Brazilian media, Diário Gaúcha , announced that days after the invasion of the Evo Morales Residence in Bolivia by the Bolivian armed forces and the evangelicals of Santa Cruz, his missing dog was found dead under a Bolivian army tank.
regeneracion.mx
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On November 20 2019 10:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2019 10:42 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2019 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 20 2019 07:22 JimmiC wrote:On November 20 2019 07:19 Sermokala wrote:On November 19 2019 23:46 Faruko wrote:On November 19 2019 23:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
Who is calling the protests in Chile a coup? Some people are saying that we are getting paid by either Venezuela or Russia Yes, they are that stupid. Do people think this is an American sponsored/run/trained coup going on? Not in Chile, it is Venezuela and Bolivia where that conspiracy is floated. Basically if a Leftist government is overthrown it is a US lead conspiracy and if it is a right wing one it is Cuba, Venezuela, Russia or China behind it. There's no question the failed coup in Venezuela was supported heavily by the US. The coup in Bolivia is supported by the US but it's not like it's US funding death squads to install a military dictatorship like they did famously in Chile. There are degrees to this stuff. Considering the military was never involved, no matter how many times you say it there was no Coup in Venezuela. There was a failed attempted uprising to unseat a dictator, one that was supported by almost every democracy that picked a side. Trying to unseat a dictator that killed unarmed indigenous trying to get food. And then defended it by saying the food was guns, which it was not and you also defended it in the same way. Because you drink up the dictator favored propaganda. He also has killed 1000's for not supporting, withholds food if you disagree and many many other crimes outlined by a leftist from the US in her report. It is hard to take much of what you say serious when you are now claiming to support the poor and indigenous when constantly defend a man who ordered them shot dead and keeps food from them. Stop with the lies, try to use a little bit of critical thinking instead of just always believing that the US is only evil and the root of all problems, it is so tiring. Like how now you are so against the police using beanbags and taking out peoples eyes but maduro using bullets and torture is fine. You have zero moral high ground, stop the shit. The military doesn't have to be involved to be a coup, but their refusing Guaido and US attempts to make it a coup is one reason why I call it a failed coup. Failed US backed regime change works too though for people hung up on the specific word of "coup" I think it's obvious which of us is more susceptible to propaganda. You asking if Chilean protestors would want the military to remove their president strikes me as shocking for example. Either quote me saying that Maduro using bullets and torture is fine or apologize for such a heinous and unfounded accusation. You should listen to yourself more often. The last thing I'll say to you for a while is that the neoliberal/centrist insistence on equating the left and far right is one of the most dangerous arguments they employ
Stop being over dramatic, I'm not making up something offensive like you sent racist pm's, I'm saying that your constant support of Maduro, who by HIS OWN count has had the FAES kill thousands of unarmed people, including the indigenous trying to get food shows your hierarchy of values. You only get upset about these types of human rights abuses when you feel the person doesn't match you politically. If they match you politically you believe them to be justified and still support the leader because you believe their BS that all those people were right wing collaborators or whatever is the lie of the day. Hell the now up to 4 million people who have left you believed the first couple of million before the sanctions were all the rich and Blah blah and now it is because of the US sanctions. It is honestly laughable.
Of course they want the military to stop this right wing crazy who took power because 5 people above her resigned. the same way they wanted to military to stop Morales from turning their democracy into a dictatorship. Lets not forget that before he left there was much bigger riots than now, and HE ORDERED the military to take the same and more violent actions they are now, had that happened you wouldn't be all mad about the human rights abuses. You would be on here arguing that Morales had to because this is a right wing coup blah blah.
It is really tiring how you don't look critically at a situation but think you are looking the most critically. You position is 100% easy to predict which is what ever the US stance is yours will be the opposite no matter how terrible it is.
The insistence is because it is true. Look at the Countries that Support Venezuela, look at the countries that support Syria, look at the countries that support NK, Look at the ones that support Iran. They do not follow ideological markers, they all support the same power structure of Dictatorships. And then when you look within those countries they all have the same set up of those in power being rich and everyone else being poor. Does not matter if they claim to be left or right all the dictators stick together to protect themselves from those evil democracies trying to give people the evil rights of freedom, instead of the order of authoritarianism.
And all your talk Oligarchs is again blinded by all people who claim to be left are good and all who claim to be right are bad. Oligarchs exist in both forms, you are just only mad at the ones in the US.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/oligarchy-countries/
People like me, we are mad at human rights abuses no matter which government does it, we are also for fighting for all peoples rights even people that are not leftwing, we believe in education not force. You only support democracy if it agrees with you, and this is not democracy.
I'm going to take a break from responding to you. You probably have not noticed but I've only engaged with you on the threads I have created and not at all on the US pol thread. If you want to avoid me which is your claim, please feel free to by posting on the US pol thread as much as your heart desires but not on the threads I have created. If you choose to continue to post here and in the environmental one that is your choice, but at some later point don't make claims that I am harassing you, maybe take a moment to realize that you are the one coming to me and I actively trying to avoid you.
Have a good day.
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Though unlikely to succeed, legislators in Chile have filed a motion for impeachment proceedings. The complaint is "due to the grave, repeated, generalised and systematic violations of the fundamental rights of people carried out by agents of the state in the past month,"
Antofagasta, Chile - Opposition legislators in Chile formally presented a motion Tuesday to initiate impeachment proceedings against President Sebastian Pinera.
The "constitutional accusation" is rooted in human rights violations allegedly committed during the ongoing month-long crisis. Nationwide protests against inequality and injustice continue, as do police crackdowns.
www.aljazeera.com
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On November 21 2019 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Though unlikely to succeed, legislators in Chile have filed a motion for impeachment proceedings. The complaint is "due to the grave, repeated, generalised and systematic violations of the fundamental rights of people carried out by agents of the state in the past month," Show nested quote +Antofagasta, Chile - Opposition legislators in Chile formally presented a motion Tuesday to initiate impeachment proceedings against President Sebastian Pinera.
The "constitutional accusation" is rooted in human rights violations allegedly committed during the ongoing month-long crisis. Nationwide protests against inequality and injustice continue, as do police crackdowns. www.aljazeera.com
Signed by 11 out of 155 people in the house parliament. Extreme left circus.
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Bolivian students and peasants join several other organizations in ongoing protests of the repression from the interim government/military/police.
La Paz, Nov 20 (Prensa Latina) Bolivian students and peasants continue to mobilize to reject the de facto government of self-proclaimed interim president Jeanine Añez.
Educational institutions in the municipality of Villa Tunari took to the streets to join the six federations of the Tropic of Cochabamba (center) and other organizations at the national level that have mobilized to denounce the coup d'état and ratify solidarity with Evo Morales.
Peasants from the north of the department of Potosi arrived in the Senkata area, in the city of El Alto, who cried slogans including, 'The people united will never be defeated.'
In this locality, a group of citizens mourned in the 25 de Julio chapel the deaths of six people this Tuesday, after the police-military operation at the Yacimientos Petrolíferos Fiscales Bolivianos plant, located in that area.
According to local news reports, the families of the victims blame Añez for the repression launched by the Armed Forces and police.
www.plenglish.com
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Is this a new document or is it the one they had already?
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On November 21 2019 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:Is this a new document or is it the one they had already?
I believe this is the only one created. I just hadn't posted it before and when I came across it on NPR I thought others might be interested.
But this is the one that Morales claims is fake and the rest of the Bolivians partys (left of center all the way to the far right) say is the truth.
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On November 21 2019 02:23 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2019 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Though unlikely to succeed, legislators in Chile have filed a motion for impeachment proceedings. The complaint is "due to the grave, repeated, generalised and systematic violations of the fundamental rights of people carried out by agents of the state in the past month," Antofagasta, Chile - Opposition legislators in Chile formally presented a motion Tuesday to initiate impeachment proceedings against President Sebastian Pinera.
The "constitutional accusation" is rooted in human rights violations allegedly committed during the ongoing month-long crisis. Nationwide protests against inequality and injustice continue, as do police crackdowns. www.aljazeera.com Signed by 11 out of 155 people in the house parliament. Extreme left circus.
Funny how on the streets the amount of people that actually want Piñera out is way over that 11/155. You call it left circus, but the situation in Chile is way beyond left and right. People is tired of the facade: everyone that is not a right wing supporter is called inmediatly a leftist (like you did on that other guy). It is a pretty old technique used by the right to nullify and create fear: if I don´t support your economics and political view you call me a communist.
Stop pretending there is only black and white and maybe you *could* understand why people attack the police like they did on that video you posted. Those are not left party supporters. That is people tired of being laugh in their faces when police has enough money to spend on Dodge Chargers and shny new toys but there is not enough money to spend in health or education.
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EPT
