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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 27 2026 21:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2026 21:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 17:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Yeah that's true. It's hard for me to imagine at this point in time, but maybe one or two or three presidential terms from now we'll all be like "yeahhhhhhh this situation is even worse than Trump's presidencies". It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government? The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? What's next is determining whether the person you're discussing this with either supports or opposes the premise.
Why?
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On April 27 2026 23:19 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2026 21:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 21:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government?
The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? What's next is determining whether the person you're discussing this with either supports or opposes the premise. Answer the question GH.
I did.
To recap:
I suggested: This feels like a "rock bottom" moment for the US.
and asked: What's the worse version of this that could exist and people would still consider it a legitimate government?
People focused on the fact that "it could be worse" so I reminded them what I actually asked: It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government?
DPB said: different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed.
I agreed and I asked: You have and can describe yours [standards and lines]? Anyone?
No one offered any
DPB said: I don't know
and asked: How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government?
I answered: I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo.
Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure.
I also wondered: why you think you (or many others) have them [if you don't know them] then?
DPB didn't answer, but did put forward the premise: Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government"
and asked: What comes next?
Rather than describe what came next, my answer just did it: Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position?
DPB repeated their post, so I answered again by describing what comes next: What's next is determining whether the person you're discussing this with either supports or opposes the premise.
Then you demand I answer again while DPB chuckles triumphantly for failing to adhere to basic conversational structure:
On April 27 2026 23:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Yeah I'm not going to ask a third time lol.
Determining whether someone is supporting or opposing the premise of a discussion as a next step in communication isn't something uniquely expected of this discussion. That's a standard conversational expectation you're attempting to rhetorically subvert. That is very destructive to good faith dialogue.
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On April 28 2026 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Determining whether someone is supporting or opposing the premise of a discussion as a next step in communication isn't something uniquely expected of this discussion. That's a standard conversational expectation you're attempting to rhetorically subvert. That is very destructive to good faith dialogue.
Why would the stance of someone else change your opinion?
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I've watched videos of F-18 evasive maneuvers less wily than that
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On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 17:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 17:18 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
In Germany, we have a saying: "Schlimmer geht immer". Worse is always possible.
I agree that it is kind of hard to imagine at this point, but i am sure they will find a way. Maybe instead of incompetent and evil they will go for competent and evil next. Yeah that's true. It's hard for me to imagine at this point in time, but maybe one or two or three presidential terms from now we'll all be like "yeahhhhhhh this situation is even worse than Trump's presidencies". It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government? The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. + Show Spoiler +Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! That's one. Think we'll need more than that to say "We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government."
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On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 17:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 17:18 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
In Germany, we have a saying: "Schlimmer geht immer". Worse is always possible.
I agree that it is kind of hard to imagine at this point, but i am sure they will find a way. Maybe instead of incompetent and evil they will go for competent and evil next. Yeah that's true. It's hard for me to imagine at this point in time, but maybe one or two or three presidential terms from now we'll all be like "yeahhhhhhh this situation is even worse than Trump's presidencies". It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government? The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork!
Respect for picking up the baton. GH should at least respond to you (and others).
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On April 28 2026 00:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 17:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Yeah that's true. It's hard for me to imagine at this point in time, but maybe one or two or three presidential terms from now we'll all be like "yeahhhhhhh this situation is even worse than Trump's presidencies". It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government? The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! Respect for picking up the baton. GH should at least respond to you (and others). I did, but let's go ahead and check Acro's premise that TL.net + Show Spoiler +(I take this to mean US politics posters excluding the Sartres)
Poll: Is the Trump presidency a legitimate government?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes
☐ No
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I don't know what TL.net not considering the presidency a legit government has to do with your personal opinion on what DPB asked. You didn't answer his question as to what YOU did/have done and what YOU think is next. Answer that. What do you YOU think needs to come next since you've deemed this illegitimate. Don't link back to something 5 years ago or whenever. THe situation has changed drastically from then. What is your current opinion based on what DPB asked?
Don't deflect or evade. Answer the question.
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Where's the "that's still not answering the question" option on this poll?
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On April 28 2026 01:12 LightSpectra wrote:
Where's the "that's still not answering the question" option on this poll?
GH: "DPB chuckles triumphantly"
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United States44242 Posts
Legitimacy is undefined in the question but is normally based on two things, international recognition and a monopoly on violence within its territory.
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
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On April 28 2026 01:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2026 01:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 28 2026 00:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! Respect for picking up the baton. GH should at least respond to you (and others). I did, but let's go ahead and check Acro's premise that TL.net + Show Spoiler +(I take this to mean US politics posters excluding the Sartres) does not consider the Trump presidency (keeping in mind the unprecedented insurrection, corruption, criminality, etc) legitimate. Poll: Is the Trump presidency a legitimate government?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes
☐ No
Legitimacy is undefined in the question but is normally based on two things, international recognition and a monopoly on violence within its territory.
At the risk of getting sidetracked rather than beating a dead horse, that's an interesting premise with more baked into it.
The consent of the governed is absent for starters (seems LightSpectra noticed/takes issue with that). "International recognition" brings tension to your pillars in my mind vis-à-vis Cuba.
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United States44242 Posts
On April 28 2026 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2026 01:25 KwarK wrote:On April 28 2026 01:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 28 2026 00:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! Respect for picking up the baton. GH should at least respond to you (and others). I did, but let's go ahead and check Acro's premise that TL.net + Show Spoiler +(I take this to mean US politics posters excluding the Sartres) does not consider the Trump presidency (keeping in mind the unprecedented insurrection, corruption, criminality, etc) legitimate. Poll: Is the Trump presidency a legitimate government?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes
☐ No
Legitimacy is undefined in the question but is normally based on two things, international recognition and a monopoly on violence within its territory. At the risk of getting sidetracked rather than beating a dead horse, that's an interesting premise with more baked into it. The consent of the governed is absent for starters (seems LightSpectra noticed/takes issue with that). "International recognition" brings tension to your pillars in my mind vis-à-vis Cuba.
It's not a premise, it's how it works.
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On April 28 2026 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2026 01:25 KwarK wrote:On April 28 2026 01:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 28 2026 00:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! Respect for picking up the baton. GH should at least respond to you (and others). I did, but let's go ahead and check Acro's premise that TL.net + Show Spoiler +(I take this to mean US politics posters excluding the Sartres) does not consider the Trump presidency (keeping in mind the unprecedented insurrection, corruption, criminality, etc) legitimate. Poll: Is the Trump presidency a legitimate government?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes
☐ No
Legitimacy is undefined in the question but is normally based on two things, international recognition and a monopoly on violence within its territory. At the risk of getting sidetracked rather than beating a dead horse, that's an interesting premise with more baked into it. The consent of the governed is absent for starters (seems LightSpectra noticed/takes issue with that). "International recognition" brings tension to your pillars in my mind vis-à-vis Cuba.
Apologies if I was unclear, the only thing I have an issue with is your continued inability to answer a straightforward question.
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I don’t really see the point of declaring something corrupt, members criminal, and (a past failed alleged) conspiracy to insurrection as additionally illegitimate.
Unless you’re trying to re-do the 2024 election, justify violence to topple the whole constitutional system, or justify assassination to depose leadership and replace.
Because corruption, criminality (somewhat repetitive with corruption), and insurrection are perfectly fine and descriptive words to use to communicate your point of view.
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Canada11593 Posts
Yeah, I don't really know what we mean by legitimacy.
The US had an election and though I do not like the result and as much I think he never should been voted back in because of his previous attempt to seize power against the will of the people, as far as I know it was a fair election and so Dr Trump was legitimately elected. Is that what we mean?
However, the man of lawlessness, the great messiah, could also be legitimately removed from office for his corruption alone if Congress wanted to actually be a check and balance. So if he was removed and refused to leave, not legitimate. But that hasn't been successfully tried yet. So what does that mean?
Also, on the balance, I think he's compromised by Russian money invested in his businesses (more could be hidden through LLCs than the initial 100M)
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/
And Russian money bailed out his failing businesses via Bayrock
https://web.archive.org/web/20201101010214/https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/
We already know Trump's inner circle was taking Russian money like his former national security advisor Michael Flynn
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/documents-show-russian-companies-paid-michael-flynn-thousands-before-election/
Yet the man of lawlessness can yell Russia! Russia! Russia! and it magically goes away.
He tried to extort Zelensky but withholding $250M in aid (July 18, 2019. A week later, they ask Zelensky to help them investigate his political opponent, Biden and his son.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/
The only reason Trump doesn't have control on Ukraine now is his administration cut off all aid to Ukraine and was actively supporting Russia's efforts to conquer Ukraine. Without dangling support as means of directing Ukrainian policy, US lost all sway on them. (Oh, and cutting off support for Ukraine, abandoning them to the Russian wolves is the pinnacle of Trump's administration as far as Vance is concerned).
Trump's administration is allied to Russian's imperial expansions.
Does that make the Good Doctor illegitimate? Does it matter? He could be legitimately removed but Congress has tried nothing and are out of ideas because not enough Republicans will move against MAGA, unless they are ready to retire. Then they come out guns a'blazing (*edit metaphorically, to be clear- in light of recent events). Schrodinger's cat: legitimate and illegitimate at the same time? But functionally legitimate until he is not?
But I still think most of the normal methods of staving of Trump's corrupting of the republic have yet to be tried before turning to Vive la révolution. The first is in process, blunting Republican gerrymandering with temporary counter-gerrymandering. The second is winning the upcoming elections and seeing if Congress can take back it's constitutional authority and perhaps lame-duck Trump. Ideally, impeach, but I doubt it because of the Senate is unlikely to swing enough. But stomping the midterms should be the goal.
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On April 28 2026 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2026 00:34 Acrofales wrote:On April 27 2026 21:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 20:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 19:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 27 2026 18:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 27 2026 17:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Yeah that's true. It's hard for me to imagine at this point in time, but maybe one or two or three presidential terms from now we'll all be like "yeahhhhhhh this situation is even worse than Trump's presidencies". It's not that it can't get worse, it's how much worse can it get and still be considered/treated as a legitimate government? The president could be a naked person smoking crack and/or fent on the white house lawn trying to sell random stuff out of the white house while talking to the sky about the voices in their head telling them they shouldn't "even want a Cabinet and just says they'll do everything on their own" 1 or 3 terms from now. Yeah, different people will have different standards and different lines that they're allowing / not allowing to be crossed. Correct. You have and can describe yours? Anyone? I don't know, + Show Spoiler +but I'd like to actually consider results too. Like, you mentioned a naked crack addict. I don't want a naked crack addict as president, but if I had to choose between a naked crack addict who would be able to successfully work with Congress to give us universal healthcare, properly tax the rich, fix our crumbling infrastructure, address climate change, and generally value education and science and medicine... then I'd vote for that naked crack addict over, say, a purely hypothetical fascist, racist, misogynistic rapist who is happy to destroy the country if it makes him money. #notallnakedcrackaddicts How about you? Can you describe where your personal line is for what's no longer a legitimate government? I don't know why you think you (or many others) have them then? I have a pretty different worldview from others here, so the question is a bit different for me. Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence should be enough for most rational people imo. Getting elected functioning as a "get out of jail free" card (that he's copying and handing out to a gang of criminals) delegitimizes the entire system by any reasonable measure. All right, so Trump having a 2nd term instead of a prison sentence means we no longer have a "legitimate government" + Show Spoiler + What comes next? + Show Spoiler +What do you do about that / What did you do about that? What is the action taken that follows calling the government "no longer legitimate"? Are you supporting or opposing the highlighted position? Full support from me. Trump being president crosses the line. We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government. + Show Spoiler +Now lead us oh fearless leader GH. Show us the way to reinstate legitimate leadership in the great US of A! Expound upon your plan while I go and sharpen my pitchfork! That's one. Think we'll need more than that to say "We have established that TL.net does not consider the Trump presidency a legitimate government."
This is frustrating.
If you're interested in having a discussion, you can posit a truth and structure the discussion around that. I know you know this, this is how your blog worked - you posited that everyone posting there is a socialist and had socialist discussions.
The truth of whether or not the current presidency is legitimate doesn't stop you from revealing the next part of your flow chart. Lemme give you a rough outline :
"Let's pretend we all agree that the Trump Presidency is legitimate/illegitimate, using this definition of legitimate
if Legitimate -> We look at the structure of legitimacy and how the US is fucked regardless of Dem/Rep, then talk about how to fix that.
if illegitimate -> We look at the peoples' means to enact change regarding an illegitimate presidency"
Hiding the next step of your flowchart behind "nonono, not everyone agreed it's legitimate yet" is evasive.
And yes, I know/remember that your step one is to get everyone to agree there's a problem and that the solution does not exist inside the system.
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In a more serious country where one party is not completely subsumed by a criminal grifter, the legitimacy of his regime would have been addressed by means of impeachment, from what I know, the articles have been raised but nothing will come of it.
In his first term, impeachment was tried 2 times, in both cases, his party saved him from being removed.
You can't say a goverment is illegitimate until this is proven, of course, however, given the grip that Trump and his cohort have over both Republican party and Supreme Court, it's basically impossible to do this now.
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It really is peak GH that he has once again taken a term that has a generally understood meaning, apply his own different custom meaning to it without telling anyone and then tries to have a discussion around his new mystery meaning.
All the while acting confused that no one is reacting the way he wants them to.
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EPT
