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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On February 23 2025 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:00 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. I'm enjoying mocking the ridiculousness of it. Maybe it’s just that I’m American and its happening very intensely here, but I mostly find it dismaying at how ridiculous and intense the mental gymnastics are to defend fascism, like I’m seeing brown shirts, always reminds me that thanks to capitalism I’m gonna have to be a generation that has to put down the Nazis like a rabid dog lol You have more faith then me in Nazi's being put down rather then them just being allowed to walk all over everything/one and destroying America along the way. Nothing from the last few generations has shown me that they will fight (and yes that includes me)
You might be right, but I know some of us will wind up at least trying to do what needs to be done. I’d hope Europe and some number of Americans and Canadians and Mexicans would band together and kill all Nazis in GTA if it comes down to it, but I also acknowledge it might not work that way.
I take some heart in remembering that Nazism was popular in a lot of places that turned on Nazi Germany in WW2 though, and I think the current US Nazis are actually fucking dumber than the 1940s ones and places like Europe can probably be very aggressively aware of how imperialistic US Nazis are feeling and how far they’re willing to go.
Hope and cope, but I’d rather retain some of that than simply pull a Democrat and declare preemptive failure and give up.
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On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Show nested quote +Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans.
Why has he not been brought infront of congress yet to explain what hes doing under oath?
This shit is ridiculous. I remember before my uncle died he had suggested i try to get a job at Tesla.
Hes probably rolling in his grave now.
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On February 23 2025 07:16 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans. Why has he not been brought infront of congress yet to explain what hes doing under oath? This shit is ridiculous. I remember before my uncle died he had suggested i try to get a job at Tesla. Hes probably rolling in his grave now.
Who's going to grill him? Most of the Rs are going to lob easy questions and take him at his words. Ds might ask a tough question or two but for the most part, they know they can't get rid of him because Rs and trump. Not saying they shouldn't, but if you think grilling him on the Hill for hours will result in anything, I'm sorry.
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On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem!
I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Show nested quote +Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans.
How many federal employees are there and who’s checking these emails lmao, never mind checking they match reality.
It’s the usual performative bollocks.
As I departed Twitter many moons ago I can’t read comments, I’m gonna guess there’s rather a lot of positive reaction though?
This all feels incredibly similar to Musk and Twitter when he’d just taken over. He’ll say he’s doing x, some will lap it up, people who know better will say he’s talking bollocks.
Whatever skillset he has (had?) in certain areas, and I’ll be fair as per and just assume he does, these are political and bureaucratic challenges as much as if not over and above being technical ones. Whatever chops he has in micromanaging and driving a technical problem, he doesn’t appear to have them in those domains.
He seems a lot like Trump in this regard, he can’t solve complex problems in these areas. Without possessing a sledgehammer of relative power, just cannae do it. And like Trump he also seems adept at convincing people that this isn’t the case.
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On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it
Look at the interactions in the previous few pages. The guy thinks I’m being homophobic calling him a dickrider (maybe it is, gay people use it and haven’t told me off either so I’ll let someone here to tell me off) yet doesn’t mention shit about the homophobia radiating from <waves hands around towards the Republican Party and online right wing influencers>.
The guy is so adamant that that Ukraine should hold elections now yet is the type of guy to be screaming up and down about how the US needs to implement voter suppression to protect the sanctity of their elections. Despite their constitution allowing for it, the population largely not wanting elections, and logically can’t be done because there’s a country across the border literally lobbing explosives at your cities.
They’re not here to have an honest debate, just to try and score points and be “right” in an argument.
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On February 23 2025 07:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans. How many federal employees are there and who’s checking these emails lmao, never mind checking they match reality. It’s the usual performative bollocks. As I departed Twitter many moons ago I can’t read comments, I’m gonna guess there’s rather a lot of positive reaction though? This all feels incredibly similar to Musk and Twitter when he’d just taken over. He’ll say he’s doing x, some will lap it up, people who know better will say he’s talking bollocks. Whatever skillset he has (had?) in certain areas, and I’ll be fair as per and just assume he does, these are political and bureaucratic challenges as much as if not over and above being technical ones. Whatever chops he has in micromanaging and driving a technical problem, he doesn’t appear to have them in those domains. He seems a lot like Trump in this regard, he can’t solve complex problems in these areas. Without possessing a sledgehammer of relative power, just cannae do it. And like Trump he also seems adept at convincing people that this isn’t the case.
I checked. You're right. The dickriding and bootlicking is at a fever pitch.
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On February 23 2025 07:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans. How many federal employees are there and who’s checking these emails lmao, never mind checking they match reality. It’s the usual performative bollocks. As I departed Twitter many moons ago I can’t read comments, I’m gonna guess there’s rather a lot of positive reaction though? This all feels incredibly similar to Musk and Twitter when he’d just taken over. He’ll say he’s doing x, some will lap it up, people who know better will say he’s talking bollocks. Whatever skillset he has (had?) in certain areas, and I’ll be fair as per and just assume he does, these are political and bureaucratic challenges as much as if not over and above being technical ones. Whatever chops he has in micromanaging and driving a technical problem, he doesn’t appear to have them in those domains. He seems a lot like Trump in this regard, he can’t solve complex problems in these areas. Without possessing a sledgehammer of relative power, just cannae do it. And like Trump he also seems adept at convincing people that this isn’t the case. I checked. You're right. The dickriding and bootlicking is at a fever pitch.
To be devil’s advocate here, the thing about current Twitter is that you don’t really know how organic the sentiment towards a Tweet is because blue tick losers always get their content boosted and a significant amount of users are verifiably bots.
It’s such a garbage platform to use right now unless you really like CSAM, getting recommended violent material, and getting sold dropshipping scams.
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On February 23 2025 07:24 Hat Trick of Today wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it Look at the interactions in the previous few pages. The guy thinks I’m being homophobic calling him a dickrider (maybe it is, I’ll let a gay person tell me how they feel about it) yet doesn’t mention shit about the homophobia radiating from <waves hands around towards the Republican Party and online right wing influencers>. The guy is so adamant that that Ukraine should hold elections now yet is the type of guy to be screaming up and down about how the US needs to implement voter suppression to protect the sanctity of their elections. Despite their constitution allowing for it, the population largely not wanting elections, and logically can’t be done because there’s a country across the border literally lobbing explosives at your cities. They’re not here to have an honest debate, just to try and score points and be “right” in an argument.
That’s why I always specify debatelord conservatives, this is their entire belief less MO and it’s baffling to me that people want to spend their time engaging with that, like if Ben Shapiro wanted to sit down and argue with you for no reason you’d want to spend your time doing that? It sounds miserable to me lol
We don’t have a lot of genuine conservatives with values and principles around here but I at least appreciate talking to them the few occasions they pop in because they, y’know, are capable of world views informed by something other than raw concentrated cynicism and their high school debate club credentials.
Like I stopped reading the debatelord posts back in the Danglars times and I still find the prospect grating, lol, have people tried taking up running or combat sports to defray the aggressive urges, it certainly helps for me
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On February 23 2025 07:24 Hat Trick of Today wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it Look at the interactions in the previous few pages. The guy thinks I’m being homophobic calling him a dickrider (maybe it is, gay people use it and haven’t told me off either so I’ll let someone here to tell me off) yet doesn’t mention shit about the homophobia radiating from <waves hands around towards the Republican Party and online right wing influencers>. The guy is so adamant that that Ukraine should hold elections now yet is the type of guy to be screaming up and down about how the US needs to implement voter suppression to protect the sanctity of their elections. Despite their constitution allowing for it, the population largely not wanting elections, and logically can’t be done because there’s a country across the border literally lobbing explosives at your cities. They’re not here to have an honest debate, just to try and score points and be “right” in an argument.
This is correct and important to realize. oBlade doesn't believe in anything he says. He may actually believe that he believes it (I don't know that), but if his leader would say the opposite tomorrow, he would immediately hold that position too.
There are zero core principles at play with modern conservatives. Everything they say is just because they believe it makes them win (a debate, an election, whatever). He can say A today, and B tomorrow, and will either insist he never said A, or that A and B are totally compatible because the situations cannot be compared in any way.
Where he gets what to believe today from, i cannot say. My guess is Fox News or something like that. But every interaction with him needs to keep this in mind. You cannot convince him, because he holds no principles, has no beliefs, and doesn't actually care about the issue. He just wants to win.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it
It depends how you argue.
1. You’re full of shit and here’s why.
2. ‘Ok yeah you’ve got some legitimate points here but…’
It also depends how you’re engaging and where
1. ‘A wild Fashy appears!’
2. I’m going to invite you on my podcast so we can debate bro
I think it’s perfectly fine provided you’re doing column 1 most of the time, column 2 you’re exposing some cracks that yeah I think can legitimise such things.
Way I see it these things aren’t mutually incompatible. Fascists or fash-adjacent types don’t spring from the ether, on whatever level of you can direct people away from that pipeline it’s worth a shot. For those who do enter their ‘final form’ so to speak, ostracise the fuck out of them.
Violence is a potentially effective tool, but it’s crude and it takes a fuckload of buy-in. Buy in I just don’t think is there.
Jello Biafra can go ‘Nazi punks fuck off’ and fans and his gigs can turf them out. But on a nation-state level?
It’s an understandable sentiment, equally if ballpark half the population are either Fashy types, or are not but hate my politics more, you’re kinda in a rough spot.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 07:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans. How many federal employees are there and who’s checking these emails lmao, never mind checking they match reality. It’s the usual performative bollocks. As I departed Twitter many moons ago I can’t read comments, I’m gonna guess there’s rather a lot of positive reaction though? This all feels incredibly similar to Musk and Twitter when he’d just taken over. He’ll say he’s doing x, some will lap it up, people who know better will say he’s talking bollocks. Whatever skillset he has (had?) in certain areas, and I’ll be fair as per and just assume he does, these are political and bureaucratic challenges as much as if not over and above being technical ones. Whatever chops he has in micromanaging and driving a technical problem, he doesn’t appear to have them in those domains. He seems a lot like Trump in this regard, he can’t solve complex problems in these areas. Without possessing a sledgehammer of relative power, just cannae do it. And like Trump he also seems adept at convincing people that this isn’t the case. I checked. You're right. The dickriding and bootlicking is at a fever pitch.
And nauseatingly so I imagine? Quel fucking surprise
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On February 23 2025 07:15 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2025 07:00 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. I'm enjoying mocking the ridiculousness of it. Maybe it’s just that I’m American and its happening very intensely here, but I mostly find it dismaying at how ridiculous and intense the mental gymnastics are to defend fascism, like I’m seeing brown shirts, always reminds me that thanks to capitalism I’m gonna have to be a generation that has to put down the Nazis like a rabid dog lol You have more faith then me in Nazi's being put down rather then them just being allowed to walk all over everything/one and destroying America along the way. Nothing from the last few generations has shown me that they will fight (and yes that includes me) You might be right, but I know some of us will wind up at least trying to do what needs to be done. I’d hope Europe and some number of Americans and Canadians and Mexicans would band together and kill all Nazis in GTA if it comes down to it, but I also acknowledge it might not work that way. I take some heart in remembering that Nazism was popular in a lot of places that turned on Nazi Germany in WW2 though, and I think the current US Nazis are actually fucking dumber than the 1940s ones and places like Europe can probably be very aggressively aware of how imperialistic US Nazis are feeling and how far they’re willing to go. Hope and cope, but I’d rather retain some of that than simply pull a Democrat and declare preemptive failure and give up.
LibHorizons: liberals and Democrats (and socialists for that matter) ain't what they used to be either unfortunately.
It's not even remotely up for debate who the Democratic party should rally around right now and they STILL refuse to do it.
People are so desperately hungry for the anti-oligarchy message, it's political malpractice how the Democratic party leadership is wasting this moment
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 07:35 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:24 Hat Trick of Today wrote:On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it Look at the interactions in the previous few pages. The guy thinks I’m being homophobic calling him a dickrider (maybe it is, gay people use it and haven’t told me off either so I’ll let someone here to tell me off) yet doesn’t mention shit about the homophobia radiating from <waves hands around towards the Republican Party and online right wing influencers>. The guy is so adamant that that Ukraine should hold elections now yet is the type of guy to be screaming up and down about how the US needs to implement voter suppression to protect the sanctity of their elections. Despite their constitution allowing for it, the population largely not wanting elections, and logically can’t be done because there’s a country across the border literally lobbing explosives at your cities. They’re not here to have an honest debate, just to try and score points and be “right” in an argument. This is correct and important to realize. oBlade doesn't believe in anything he says. He may actually believe that he believes it (I don't know that), but if his leader would say the opposite tomorrow, he would immediately hold that position too. There are zero core principles at play with modern conservatives. Everything they say is just because they believe it makes them win (a debate, an election, whatever). He can say A today, and B tomorrow, and will either insist he never said A, or that A and B are totally compatible because the situations cannot be compared in any way. Where he gets what to believe today from, i cannot say. My guess is Fox News or something like that. But every interaction with him needs to keep this in mind. You cannot convince him, because he holds no principles, has no beliefs, and doesn't actually care about the issue. He just wants to win.
I kinda miss Fox News as the boogeyman, I really do. Whatever the fuck this current epoch is, my teen years almost seem quaint and idyllic.
Principled conservatives do exist, not my politics, not my values. But I’ve met plenty of em in my time.
I basically entirely agree with your post mind. If you are one of those well it’s your collective job to not have your politics subsumed by populist nonsense, not mine.
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On February 23 2025 07:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it It depends how you argue. 1. You’re full of shit and here’s why. 2. ‘Ok yeah you’ve got some legitimate points here but…’ It also depends how you’re engaging and where 1. ‘A wild Fashy appears!’ 2. I’m going to invite you on my podcast so we can debate bro I think it’s perfectly fine provided you’re doing column 1 most of the time, column 2 you’re exposing some cracks that yeah I think can legitimise such things. Way I see it these things aren’t mutually incompatible. Fascists or fash-adjacent types don’t spring from the ether, on whatever level of you can direct people away from that pipeline it’s worth a shot. For those who do enter their ‘final form’ so to speak, ostracise the fuck out of them. Violence is a potentially effective tool, but it’s crude and it takes a fuckload of buy-in. Buy in I just don’t think is there. Jello Biafra can go ‘Nazi punks fuck off’ and fans and his gigs can turf them out. But on a nation-state level? It’s an understandable sentiment, equally if ballpark half the population are either Fashy types, or are not but hate my politics more, you’re kinda in a rough spot.
Even option 1 doesnt accomplish anything that simply not engaging with them doesnt also accomplish without any of the risk of a Nazi spreading their ideas to stupid people listening in the vicinity.
Like, the goal of debatelord fascists isn't to prove that their world view is right on any moral or factual grounds, their goal is just to spread their world view, the farther it spreads the more stupid people will latch onto it, engaging with them is how they do this. It used to be very very taboo to fuckin' seig heil, now its becoming notably less so, this happened because people tried to compete with Nazis in that capitalist ass marketplace of ideas bullshit, all it did was spread Nazism to stupid people, everyone who already hated the Nazis already agreed with the Not-A-Nazi, all it did was make people who may not have hated the Nazis feel like maybe the Nazis have something to say thats worth listening to.
Arguing with Nazis is just an absolute lose-lose, there is simply nothing to be gained other than whatever personal satisfaction one derives from that, frankly, isnt any different from the owning the libs mindset. Serves no purpose, nothing to gain, everything to lose.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:15 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2025 07:00 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. I'm enjoying mocking the ridiculousness of it. Maybe it’s just that I’m American and its happening very intensely here, but I mostly find it dismaying at how ridiculous and intense the mental gymnastics are to defend fascism, like I’m seeing brown shirts, always reminds me that thanks to capitalism I’m gonna have to be a generation that has to put down the Nazis like a rabid dog lol You have more faith then me in Nazi's being put down rather then them just being allowed to walk all over everything/one and destroying America along the way. Nothing from the last few generations has shown me that they will fight (and yes that includes me) You might be right, but I know some of us will wind up at least trying to do what needs to be done. I’d hope Europe and some number of Americans and Canadians and Mexicans would band together and kill all Nazis in GTA if it comes down to it, but I also acknowledge it might not work that way. I take some heart in remembering that Nazism was popular in a lot of places that turned on Nazi Germany in WW2 though, and I think the current US Nazis are actually fucking dumber than the 1940s ones and places like Europe can probably be very aggressively aware of how imperialistic US Nazis are feeling and how far they’re willing to go. Hope and cope, but I’d rather retain some of that than simply pull a Democrat and declare preemptive failure and give up. LibHorizons: liberals and Democrats (and socialists for that matter) ain't what they used to be either unfortunately. It's not even remotely up for debate who the Democratic party should rally around right now and they STILL refuse to do it. People are so desperately hungry for the anti-oligarchy message, it's political malpractice how the Democratic party leadership is wasting this moment https://twitter.com/fshakir/status/1893098136001753529
I’d love to see some polling on it, to my intuition it checks out but hey, been wrong plenty of times.
The Dems appear allergic to free wins though, or relatively cheap ones.
I’ve said it for forever, perhaps the totality of Sander’s isn’t palatable enough for American sensibilities, but you sure as fuck could have stuck him in some cabinet role where his stances are overwhelmingly popular within that remit. Even sometimes somewhat across the aisle.
Even on a more milquetoast liberal level, if Elizabeth Warren had a strong area (I think as a more ‘general’ politician she has failings), it was Wall Street and financial regulation (or at least the need for it), and she wasn’t used for that either.
It’s not even a particularly radical strategy, it’s borderline the bare minimum. It’s business as usual but throw a few bones, they seemingly can’t even countenance that
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On February 23 2025 08:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 23 2025 07:15 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2025 07:00 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. I'm enjoying mocking the ridiculousness of it. Maybe it’s just that I’m American and its happening very intensely here, but I mostly find it dismaying at how ridiculous and intense the mental gymnastics are to defend fascism, like I’m seeing brown shirts, always reminds me that thanks to capitalism I’m gonna have to be a generation that has to put down the Nazis like a rabid dog lol You have more faith then me in Nazi's being put down rather then them just being allowed to walk all over everything/one and destroying America along the way. Nothing from the last few generations has shown me that they will fight (and yes that includes me) You might be right, but I know some of us will wind up at least trying to do what needs to be done. I’d hope Europe and some number of Americans and Canadians and Mexicans would band together and kill all Nazis in GTA if it comes down to it, but I also acknowledge it might not work that way. I take some heart in remembering that Nazism was popular in a lot of places that turned on Nazi Germany in WW2 though, and I think the current US Nazis are actually fucking dumber than the 1940s ones and places like Europe can probably be very aggressively aware of how imperialistic US Nazis are feeling and how far they’re willing to go. Hope and cope, but I’d rather retain some of that than simply pull a Democrat and declare preemptive failure and give up. LibHorizons: liberals and Democrats (and socialists for that matter) ain't what they used to be either unfortunately. It's not even remotely up for debate who the Democratic party should rally around right now and they STILL refuse to do it. People are so desperately hungry for the anti-oligarchy message, it's political malpractice how the Democratic party leadership is wasting this moment https://twitter.com/fshakir/status/1893098136001753529 I’d love to see some polling on it, to my intuition it checks out but hey, been wrong plenty of times. The Dems appear allergic to free wins though, or relatively cheap ones. I’ve said it for forever, perhaps the totality of Sander’s isn’t palatable enough for American sensibilities, but you sure as fuck could have stuck him in some cabinet role where his stances are overwhelmingly popular within that remit. Even sometimes somewhat across the aisle. Even on a more milquetoast liberal level, if Elizabeth Warren had a strong area (I think as a more ‘general’ politician she has failings), it was Wall Street and financial regulation (or at least the need for it), and she wasn’t used for that either. It’s not even a particularly radical strategy, it’s borderline the bare minimum. It’s business as usual but throw a few bones, they seemingly can’t even countenance that
The polling would just make things more frustrating.
We already know the Dems strategy is to know that everything they say and do is right of course, and wait for the population to come to them whenever that happens.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 08:04 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 07:43 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 07:18 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:04 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. Have you tried being me? Joking aside, I’d rather have my teeth being pulled most of the time, although if I was a fish I imagine I wouldn’t last long given a pathological inability to avoid biting. Way I look at it, it’s not really for either of our benefits, it’s for pushing back on the high/low chance someone else comes along and goes ‘oh hey X is making a good point, nobody has any response’ or whatever. Look I gotta say teen WombaT did not envisage having to engage on such seemingly settled, or ridiculous new territory 20 years later, and for the most part does not enjoy the process. Hence why as Ifrequently say I basically only chat politics etc on TL. As much as general toxicity sucks I gotta say it’s debate lords and perpetual devil’s advocates who broke me there. I’m certainly not alone in this world in occasionally enjoying a bit of smug time, but I kinda gotta do something worth getting smug about. Throwing down a bet on Pavel Nedved winning European Footballer of the Year like 8 months out, I enjoy basking in such things for a period. Rambling aside, I think it’s something that’s just gotta be done, unfortunately. There’s not really a huge downside provided you’re not an absolute cretin in how you do so. Best (and almost unicorn) scenario you flip someone around, middle outcome you might convince someone lurking and reading, worst you do nothing but can be a bit smug temporarily. Like yeah if it’s all you spend your time doing then you’ve got a problem! I think I fundamentally disagree with you here, I actually think you have it backwards, arguing with fascists and fascist sympathizers does nothing but embolden and recruit more fascists and fascist sympathizers, these scumbags need to be thoroughly and completely locked out of public life from all angles, arguing with a brick wall doesn’t do anything but draw a lot of attention to that brick wall people keep talking to. The only time a Nazi should have their mouth open in public is when someone is pushing their boot down on it It depends how you argue. 1. You’re full of shit and here’s why. 2. ‘Ok yeah you’ve got some legitimate points here but…’ It also depends how you’re engaging and where 1. ‘A wild Fashy appears!’ 2. I’m going to invite you on my podcast so we can debate bro I think it’s perfectly fine provided you’re doing column 1 most of the time, column 2 you’re exposing some cracks that yeah I think can legitimise such things. Way I see it these things aren’t mutually incompatible. Fascists or fash-adjacent types don’t spring from the ether, on whatever level of you can direct people away from that pipeline it’s worth a shot. For those who do enter their ‘final form’ so to speak, ostracise the fuck out of them. Violence is a potentially effective tool, but it’s crude and it takes a fuckload of buy-in. Buy in I just don’t think is there. Jello Biafra can go ‘Nazi punks fuck off’ and fans and his gigs can turf them out. But on a nation-state level? It’s an understandable sentiment, equally if ballpark half the population are either Fashy types, or are not but hate my politics more, you’re kinda in a rough spot. Even option 1 doesnt accomplish anything that simply not engaging with them doesnt also accomplish without any of the risk of a Nazi spreading their ideas to stupid people listening in the vicinity. Like, the goal of debatelord fascists isn't to prove that their world view is right on any moral or factual grounds, their goal is just to spread their world view, the farther it spreads the more stupid people will latch onto it, engaging with them is how they do this. It used to be very very taboo to fuckin' seig heil, now its becoming notably less so, this happened because people tried to compete with Nazis in that capitalist ass marketplace of ideas bullshit, all it did was spread Nazism to stupid people, everyone who already hated the Nazis already agreed with the Not-A-Nazi, all it did was make people who may not have hated the Nazis feel like maybe the Nazis have something to say thats worth listening to. Arguing with Nazis is just an absolute lose-lose, there is simply nothing to be gained other than whatever personal satisfaction one derives from that, frankly, isnt any different from the owning the libs mindset. Serves no purpose, nothing to gain, everything to lose.
I half agree, I think it’s been a colossal mistake to platform such types thinking they’ll lose in the Marketplace of IdeasTM
In other spheres or interactions I think less so, if you don’t push back then people who may otherwise be on the fence are just left with pondering propaganda and intentionally misleading actors, and many don’t necessarily have the requisite knowledge to resist that.
Perhaps there’s some of my personal biases coming into play. I’ve folks in my life, especially those who emigrated for periods who came back with insane worldviews. A process I just don’t think would have happened if they had been over here and we’d chatted the odd bit of politics over a pint on a semi-regular basis.
Not because I’m remotely the world’s greatest orator and purveyor of knowledge, merely that untethered from pushback and at the whims of outrage algorithms well, folks go down that rabbit hole.
Of actual close friends in my life the only ones who went down various rabbit holes were those who had prolonged periods of little contact with me or others in our group. Which I don’t think is coincidental and as I said may be a bias of mine but somewhat informs my position here.
Brass tacks would I rather folks be listening to me or some alt-right loon? Ideally just me, but even if they’re giving the other a fair crack of the whip at least I’m there to challenge the bullshit. How I look at it anyway.
For me the central problem is we’ve too many Fascists or fash-adjacent full stop. That’s what worries me and influences my approach. Gotta get those numbers down.
You can collectively suppress it when that number is relatively low, which has (generally) what’s been what we’ve seen for much of the post-WW2 period.
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Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On February 23 2025 08:28 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 08:15 WombaT wrote:On February 23 2025 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 23 2025 07:15 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 07:05 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2025 07:00 Zambrah wrote:On February 23 2025 05:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 23 2025 05:56 Zambrah wrote:
I wish I had the ability to so easily feel smug and superior, my interactions with debatelord conservatives have only been irritating at best. I'm enjoying mocking the ridiculousness of it. Maybe it’s just that I’m American and its happening very intensely here, but I mostly find it dismaying at how ridiculous and intense the mental gymnastics are to defend fascism, like I’m seeing brown shirts, always reminds me that thanks to capitalism I’m gonna have to be a generation that has to put down the Nazis like a rabid dog lol You have more faith then me in Nazi's being put down rather then them just being allowed to walk all over everything/one and destroying America along the way. Nothing from the last few generations has shown me that they will fight (and yes that includes me) You might be right, but I know some of us will wind up at least trying to do what needs to be done. I’d hope Europe and some number of Americans and Canadians and Mexicans would band together and kill all Nazis in GTA if it comes down to it, but I also acknowledge it might not work that way. I take some heart in remembering that Nazism was popular in a lot of places that turned on Nazi Germany in WW2 though, and I think the current US Nazis are actually fucking dumber than the 1940s ones and places like Europe can probably be very aggressively aware of how imperialistic US Nazis are feeling and how far they’re willing to go. Hope and cope, but I’d rather retain some of that than simply pull a Democrat and declare preemptive failure and give up. LibHorizons: liberals and Democrats (and socialists for that matter) ain't what they used to be either unfortunately. It's not even remotely up for debate who the Democratic party should rally around right now and they STILL refuse to do it. People are so desperately hungry for the anti-oligarchy message, it's political malpractice how the Democratic party leadership is wasting this moment https://twitter.com/fshakir/status/1893098136001753529 I’d love to see some polling on it, to my intuition it checks out but hey, been wrong plenty of times. The Dems appear allergic to free wins though, or relatively cheap ones. I’ve said it for forever, perhaps the totality of Sander’s isn’t palatable enough for American sensibilities, but you sure as fuck could have stuck him in some cabinet role where his stances are overwhelmingly popular within that remit. Even sometimes somewhat across the aisle. Even on a more milquetoast liberal level, if Elizabeth Warren had a strong area (I think as a more ‘general’ politician she has failings), it was Wall Street and financial regulation (or at least the need for it), and she wasn’t used for that either. It’s not even a particularly radical strategy, it’s borderline the bare minimum. It’s business as usual but throw a few bones, they seemingly can’t even countenance that The polling would just make things more frustrating. We already know the Dems strategy is to know that everything they say and do is right of course, and wait for the population to come to them whenever that happens.
The Dems aren’t always wrong with their calculus, just often.
I personally disagree with their Israel policy for one, but they’re a political party operating in that state’s biggest external cheerleader.
I mean as per my own politics yeah I’d love to see certain things, but it’s not really down to me at the end of the day.
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On February 23 2025 06:57 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2025 06:52 micronesia wrote:Check out this brilliant tweet from Elon: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1893386883444437415Consistent with President @realDonaldTrump’s instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week.
Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. Yeah, I don't think you can force people to resign for refusing to urgently respond to a ludicrous e-mail (if you even have access to your e-mail to begin with). This is the type of bullshit federal organizations have been grappling with instead of focusing on their actual mission to support Americans. "Nothing because you and your brown shirted gooners have properly fucked up every system and administrative machination that we use to do our jobs. We are now in the process of undoing your fuckups and trying to do our actual job without your fucking input and screwups." Or something along those lines.
Too long. How about: "Your momma"
E: actually wombat has a point. Somebody has to read those emails, so I'd ask chatgpt to write me a 5000 word essay of what it thinks someone in my position should get done in a week, in excruciating detail and lots of jargon. Oh, and make sure fucking the reader's momma is listed somewhere around word 2700.
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EPT
