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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4693

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10496 Posts
January 14 2025 02:36 GMT
#93841
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1015 Posts
January 14 2025 03:10 GMT
#93842
On January 14 2025 09:00 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 07:03 Billyboy wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:24 Billyboy wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:08 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 04:07 WombaT wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

You aren’t forced to abandon the reasonable skepticism you employ to all sorts of other forms of topics just because your personal bugbear of wokeness is attached.

You just choose to do so and get pissy when people point it out. While also doing the ‘you can’t say anything about DEI without being called an …ist’ shtick despite on this and many other occasions nobody in here calling you that.



Can you elaborate on what skepticism I’m abandoning here?

Also there’s plenty of examples of calling people racists or sexists for opposing DEI initiatives. Nobody calls me an -ist here purely out of a matter of decorum. There’s plenty of examples such as “you must not think black women are qualified to be SCOTUS justices if you disagree with Biden declaring he will select a black woman.” Then it’s simply a matter of reading between the lines.

I'm not sure why you bring this up over and over and over again. It is not remotely the dunk you think it is. When Dana White says that he is picking an exchampion for the next Main event, does that mean that he only considered ex Champions? Nope he is teasing the result and building suspense by teasing the answer.

It dunks the opposite way that you seem to have never considered the possibility that a black women was simply the best choice.


Except that’s not the same as what happened. Biden didn’t have KBJ pre-picked before declaring he would nominate a black woman. Instead he said he would nominate a black woman and then went out looking for a black woman to pick.

Can you source that claim? Because it sounds awfully naïve to me to think that this is not looked at consistently. It is you belief that Trump has no one lined up right now if one of them drops dead?

And then also, why no anger about Trumps identity politics? He boasted that he picked his two based on age first qualification second. But that kind of identity is OK, no tears for all the older, more qualified people passed over?



Sure

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-nears-supreme-court-pick-interviews-short-list/story?id=83047608

If you already have your pick selected you don’t have to interview a bunch of candidates, all whom happen to be black women.

How completely uncynical of you. Strange though to in this specific situation all the sudden trust that the Democrats are doing exactly what they say they are and doing a completely fair process, while you main argument is that the democrats did not do a fair process.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
January 14 2025 03:57 GMT
#93843
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.

Christ, dude, at least Horst Wessel was an actual guy that was killed.

A couple years ago the CEO of my company made a couple comments during a town hall meeting about not liking work from home because he thinks women just want to be home to take care of their kids instead of working or something. A bunch of women complained to HR so he made a big apology email and the company announced that everyone, including the management team, was going to be assigned a mandatory training on sexism in the workplace as a response. Stupid, but whatever, we already do like 20 of these trainings a year on anti-phishing or ladder safety or GDPR compliance or whatever, one more didn’t really matter.

I don’t remember if that was the one, but I think one of these trainings made the argument that the organization is more effective with diverse teams because, for example, women are better at multitasking so they’ll bring unique strengths. Now this obviously isn’t my area but if I’m not mistaken that multitasking thing is totally unsupported by the research. Everybody seems to think it’s true but it mostly functions to justify women taking more of the domestic labor even though they work full time just like their husbands, there’s no good evidence for it.

It’s a stupid argument they’re making, in other words, but it doesn’t actually matter at all. I don’t go into HR’s anti-sexism training expecting to read a well-crafted meta-analysis of the latest research, or hear sharp and incisive arguments that cut straight to the heart of the issue. I expect to have a bunch of mealy-mouthed sentiments vaguely gesturing at an ethic of professionalism and then I’ll take an extremely obvious quiz I only have to get 80% correct to pass.

None of this shit actually matters. The only significance of this story is as a propaganda tool for anti-woke grifters to tie the LA fires to DEI for clicks.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4091 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-14 12:06:38
January 14 2025 12:05 GMT
#93844
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.


When Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, Elon Musk or Trump lie or say dumb shit, it's the boy who cried wolf. It's a pattern of behavior by one single person. Not just a person, but an abusive person in some instances such as AJ, Trump and Elon. Only JR is not known to be abusive, however he knowingly hosts harmful people on his podcast. They create an entire culture of harm.

Meanwhile right-wingers find one person making one inflammatory statement. One. And that receives attention why exactly? Is that one person relevant in the grand scheme of things? Where's the comparable culture of harm?
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9618 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-14 13:36:18
January 14 2025 13:28 GMT
#93845
On January 14 2025 12:57 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.

Christ, dude, at least Horst Wessel was an actual guy that was killed.

A couple years ago the CEO of my company made a couple comments during a town hall meeting about not liking work from home because he thinks women just want to be home to take care of their kids instead of working or something. A bunch of women complained to HR so he made a big apology email and the company announced that everyone, including the management team, was going to be assigned a mandatory training on sexism in the workplace as a response. Stupid, but whatever, we already do like 20 of these trainings a year on anti-phishing or ladder safety or GDPR compliance or whatever, one more didn’t really matter.

I don’t remember if that was the one, but I think one of these trainings made the argument that the organization is more effective with diverse teams because, for example, women are better at multitasking so they’ll bring unique strengths. Now this obviously isn’t my area but if I’m not mistaken that multitasking thing is totally unsupported by the research. Everybody seems to think it’s true but it mostly functions to justify women taking more of the domestic labor even though they work full time just like their husbands, there’s no good evidence for it.

It’s a stupid argument they’re making, in other words, but it doesn’t actually matter at all. I don’t go into HR’s anti-sexism training expecting to read a well-crafted meta-analysis of the latest research, or hear sharp and incisive arguments that cut straight to the heart of the issue. I expect to have a bunch of mealy-mouthed sentiments vaguely gesturing at an ethic of professionalism and then I’ll take an extremely obvious quiz I only have to get 80% correct to pass.

None of this shit actually matters. The only significance of this story is as a propaganda tool for anti-woke grifters to tie the LA fires to DEI for clicks.


while i won’t present an argument on the multitasking front it is true that an organization is more effective AND more profitable as a result of diversity in their workforce and there are numerous studies on it. things i was forced to read in uni courses to be credentialed for a management position in my company. 😑 though as unsolicited now as it was then, it was enlightening. could just be the woke liberal education cabal brainwashing me.

sounds like we’ve attended the same HR classes though.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44316 Posts
January 14 2025 15:08 GMT
#93846
On January 14 2025 22:28 brian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 12:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.

Christ, dude, at least Horst Wessel was an actual guy that was killed.

A couple years ago the CEO of my company made a couple comments during a town hall meeting about not liking work from home because he thinks women just want to be home to take care of their kids instead of working or something. A bunch of women complained to HR so he made a big apology email and the company announced that everyone, including the management team, was going to be assigned a mandatory training on sexism in the workplace as a response. Stupid, but whatever, we already do like 20 of these trainings a year on anti-phishing or ladder safety or GDPR compliance or whatever, one more didn’t really matter.

I don’t remember if that was the one, but I think one of these trainings made the argument that the organization is more effective with diverse teams because, for example, women are better at multitasking so they’ll bring unique strengths. Now this obviously isn’t my area but if I’m not mistaken that multitasking thing is totally unsupported by the research. Everybody seems to think it’s true but it mostly functions to justify women taking more of the domestic labor even though they work full time just like their husbands, there’s no good evidence for it.

It’s a stupid argument they’re making, in other words, but it doesn’t actually matter at all. I don’t go into HR’s anti-sexism training expecting to read a well-crafted meta-analysis of the latest research, or hear sharp and incisive arguments that cut straight to the heart of the issue. I expect to have a bunch of mealy-mouthed sentiments vaguely gesturing at an ethic of professionalism and then I’ll take an extremely obvious quiz I only have to get 80% correct to pass.

None of this shit actually matters. The only significance of this story is as a propaganda tool for anti-woke grifters to tie the LA fires to DEI for clicks.


while i won’t present an argument on the multitasking front it is true that an organization is more effective AND more profitable as a result of diversity in their workforce and there are numerous studies on it. things i was forced to read in uni courses to be credentialed for a management position in my company. 😑 though as unsolicited now as it was then, it was enlightening. could just be the woke liberal education cabal brainwashing me.

sounds like we’ve attended the same HR classes though.


This is absolutely true.

There tends to be increased success when diversity, equity, and inclusion are also considered as additional criteria, no matter how much Republicans detest the concept of DEI or pretend that other non-identity qualifications aren't still being used. Republicans think this is just a bunch of liberals hating on white men, and they ignore all the studies supporting DEI because Republicans are not interested in learning anything that might affect their preconceived notions. If women or people of color or the LGBTQ+ community are perceived as competent and competitive in certain industries, then it'd be harder for Republicans to rationalize removing their rights, criminalizing people based on race, or calling groups *inferior* and *pedophiles* and *ungodly*.

It's why Joe Biden picking an "eminently qualified" black woman (representing diversity, equity, and inclusion) with "impressive experience in roles at all levels of the justice system, her character and her legal brilliance" - to directly quote BlackJack's own ABC article - matters, and is a good thing. KBJ is not just some random, arbitrary person being gifted the seat.

"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

This idea goes against many people’s intuitions. There’s a common bias that psychologists call the fluency heuristic: We prefer information that is processed more easily, or fluently, judging it to be truer or more beautiful. The effect partially explains that we gain greater appreciation of songs or paintings when they become familiar because they’re more easily processed. The fluency heuristic leads many people to study incorrectly; they often simply reread the material. The information becomes more familiar without much effort, and so they feel that they’re learning. But in a 2011 study students performed better on a test after studying the text once and then trying to recall as much as they could, a strenuous task, than they did by repeatedly going over the text, even though they predicted that rereading was the key to learning. Similarly, confronting opinions you disagree with might not seem like the quickest path to getting things done, but working in groups can be like studying (or exercising): no pain, no gain."

https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10496 Posts
January 14 2025 17:27 GMT
#93847
On January 14 2025 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.


When Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, Elon Musk or Trump lie or say dumb shit, it's the boy who cried wolf. It's a pattern of behavior by one single person. Not just a person, but an abusive person in some instances such as AJ, Trump and Elon. Only JR is not known to be abusive, however he knowingly hosts harmful people on his podcast. They create an entire culture of harm.

Meanwhile right-wingers find one person making one inflammatory statement. One. And that receives attention why exactly? Is that one person relevant in the grand scheme of things? Where's the comparable culture of harm?


Over the years I've posted hundreds of examples of things becoming shittier because of wokeism run amok. It's easy to zoom in on any one example and say "That's one little thing, what's the big deal."

If you want to talk about harm it's when the only supermarket in a historically black neighborhood closes down after 4 decades in business due to rampant theft and safety concerns ushered in by soft on crime policies that give shoplifters carte blanche to take what they want. Or the only pharmacy in a historically black district in Oakland closing for similar reasons creating a pharmacy desert for vulnerable seniors. Of course among the hardcore woke it's impossible that their soft-on-crime progressive politics led to these store closures. It's easier to just blame greedy corporations that don't want their merchandise walking out the door and then propose common sense solutions like allowing people to sue grocery stores for closing lol

Grocery deserts, pharmacy deserts, rampant crime and car break-ins, prolonged school closures from COVID lockdowns, homeless encampments, fentanyl overdoses, the decimation of small businesses. No. No, no no. The real harm is the controversial thing that Joe Rogan said. It's why Trump gained black and hispanic voters in 2024. The Democrat stronghold is becoming the white college educated liberal that has the privilege to care more about what Joe Rogan says than all the shit around them that's making their life harder.

+ Show Spoiler +
Credit where credit is due, California voters overwhelmingly passed a proposition to crackdown on shoplifting by making stiffer penalties, Gavin Newsom has ordered cities to clean up their homeless encampments, Newsom has used the California Highway Patrol to surge into cities dealing with high levels of crime and refused to offer the CHP surge to another city unless they hire more local police. Newsom has also advocated changing pursuit policies that prohibit police from chasing bad guys. Of course I don't credit any of this to wokeists seeing the light, more like Newsom gearing up for a 2028 Presidential run as a moderate.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44316 Posts
January 14 2025 17:37 GMT
#93848
On January 15 2025 02:27 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.


When Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, Elon Musk or Trump lie or say dumb shit, it's the boy who cried wolf. It's a pattern of behavior by one single person. Not just a person, but an abusive person in some instances such as AJ, Trump and Elon. Only JR is not known to be abusive, however he knowingly hosts harmful people on his podcast. They create an entire culture of harm.

Meanwhile right-wingers find one person making one inflammatory statement. One. And that receives attention why exactly? Is that one person relevant in the grand scheme of things? Where's the comparable culture of harm?


Over the years I've posted hundreds of examples of things becoming shittier because of wokeism run amok. It's easy to zoom in on any one example and say "That's one little thing, what's the big deal."

If you want to talk about harm it's when the only supermarket in a historically black neighborhood closes down after 4 decades in business due to rampant theft and safety concerns ushered in by soft on crime policies that give shoplifters carte blanche to take what they want. Or the only pharmacy in a historically black district in Oakland closing for similar reasons creating a pharmacy desert for vulnerable seniors. Of course among the hardcore woke it's impossible that their soft-on-crime progressive politics led to these store closures. It's easier to just blame greedy corporations that don't want their merchandise walking out the door and then propose common sense solutions like allowing people to sue grocery stores for closing lol

Grocery deserts, pharmacy deserts, rampant crime and car break-ins, prolonged school closures from COVID lockdowns, homeless encampments, fentanyl overdoses, the decimation of small businesses. No. No, no no. The real harm is the controversial thing that Joe Rogan said. It's why Trump gained black and hispanic voters in 2024. The Democrat stronghold is becoming the white college educated liberal that has the privilege to care more about what Joe Rogan says than all the shit around them that's making their life harder.

+ Show Spoiler +
Credit where credit is due, California voters overwhelmingly passed a proposition to crackdown on shoplifting by making stiffer penalties, Gavin Newsom has ordered cities to clean up their homeless encampments, Newsom has used the California Highway Patrol to surge into cities dealing with high levels of crime and refused to offer the CHP surge to another city unless they hire more local police. Newsom has also advocated changing pursuit policies that prohibit police from chasing bad guys. Of course I don't credit any of this to wokeists seeing the light, more like Newsom gearing up for a 2028 Presidential run as a moderate.


The subject is now being changed from your original anti-DEI posts (firefighters and SCJs) to a general anti-wokeness / we-shouldn't-go-easy-on-shoplifters position. Do you acknowledge that DEI is generally good and smart and tends to be beneficial for businesses that implement it?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4091 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-14 19:02:56
January 14 2025 19:02 GMT
#93849
On January 15 2025 02:27 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2025 21:05 Magic Powers wrote:
On January 14 2025 11:36 BlackJack wrote:
On January 14 2025 06:37 ChristianS wrote:
On January 14 2025 02:38 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:50 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 07:03 BlackJack wrote:
On January 13 2025 05:57 ChristianS wrote:
On January 13 2025 02:16 BlackJack wrote:
RIP to the LA fire victims but let’s be honest, if they need to be rescued from a fire they got themselves in the wrong place

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1877458240050446339

In all seriousness, imagine smugly blaming a fire victim for being in the wrong place. An experienced firefighter should know that not everyone has the capability to flee a fire. Is she unaware of people with mobility issues and disabilities? The audacity to say something on a prerecorded interview and not edit that out is astounding. Nevermind if you will rescue me from the fire, what’s the gender of the person you sleep with? I’ll feel better dying from smoke inhalation if I know my first responder is LGBTQIA+.

I think the right-wing media ecosystem crawling through public statements and messaging to find any way to blame the tragedies on DEI is fucking vile, and frankly dude, I’m pretty disappointed to see you trading in it.

Wrt the specific quote, I imagine the person’s point is something like “carrying fire victims out of burning buildings is a very small percentage of a firefighter’s job, we strive to keep people out of situations where that would be necessary in the first place,” and meanwhile, presumably, “in the extreme circumstance a victim needed to be carried to safety and was too heavy for me (as could also happen to a male firefighter), I would get another firefighter to help me do it.” Probably stupidly phrased, definitely defensive because the person is responding to an imagined sexist who says they’re not biologically qualified to do their job, but whatever, you anti-woke activists think everybody needs to chill out and stop getting offended so easily anyway.

The only reason we’re talking about this is because right-wing influencers saw a bunch of death and destruction in LA as a result of a natural disaster and thought “saying this is their fault because DEI will probably get a bunch of clicks.” And they were right! I think they’re fucking ghouls, though, and I’d hoped you’d have more decency than that. Instead you thought a flippant “RIP to the victims but…” prefix was sufficient.

Sorry to everyone for coming out of months of silence to scold someone’s tone before probably disappearing again but, well, here we are.


I think if you want to get on the high horse and scold the DEI critics then at a bare minimum you shouldn’t have the person who heads DEI for the department blaming people that die in a fire for finding themselves in that situation.

I don’t “have the person who heads DEI for the department” doing anything, I know you know I’m not in charge of that. I also don’t know where that clip is even from, because accounts like @EndWokeness generally won’t cite sources, because they are, fundamentally, propagandists. But I assume it’s from some video or commercial the FD put together for recruitment or something, presumably *not* to be put out in the midst of a massive humanitarian disaster. If you tell me your motivation here is that you just feel strongly that fire departments need to be more sensitive to the feelings of victims in their public messaging, I won’t believe you.
Rescuing people from fires is a pretty core competency to being a firefighter.
Stated as broadly as that, sure, that’s the mission statement. In the context of wildfires, though, you’re mostly talking about tracking fires, evacuating people in the path of danger, and containing the fire when you can. For someone to be inside a burning building they’d probably have to have ignored an evacuation warning, which is stubborn but, of course, I still hope the fire department will be able to save them. Again, I don’t think it’s a very good response to a sexist saying “women shouldn’t be firefighters because they won’t be able to carry a 250-lb man out of a burning building” to say “well he shouldn’t be in that burning building anyway” but fundamentally, the sexist is still wrong. It’s pretty rare for that to be what the job demands, and there’s no reason every member of the department needs to be able to do it (and indeed, many white men also can’t).
If you want to smugly scoff at people that need rescuing like they are personally inconveniencing you then you shouldn’t be immune to criticism.
Not insisting anyone be immune to criticism, but I think a post like the tweet you linked is exploiting news about a humanitarian disaster to grind an axe about DEI, despite there being absolutely no reason to think it has any relevance to the ongoing disaster. I think that’s ghoulish and vile. I’m half-inclined to pull “I know people in LA I’m worried about” for rhetorical weight but honestly I shouldn’t have to. Last I’ve heard my LA friends are fine (thank God) but you don’t need to know I have a personal connection to know the people losing their homes are human beings and this is probably not a great time to make what I think you’re thinking of as “jokes” about it.

The “jokes” are bad, the political point they’re making is bad, and the motivation behind it is fundamentally craven. I know you’re inclined to follow those kinds of accounts but I thought you might have a little more common sense and decency than they do. This shit sucks, dude.


You’re right that the video wouldn’t have came in front of me if not for right-wing activists with a political axe to grind using the spotlight light of the LA fires to dig stuff up. I just don’t really care about stuff like that. What’s the response I’m supposed to have? “Well that’s a really deplorable defense of DEI but I wouldn’t have heard it if not for the likes of Breitbart so I’ll let it slide”? Faulting victims for dying in a fire is a shitty thing to say and right-wing grifters didn’t make anyone say it.

I think my post does a good job at addressing a recurrent theme offered here that the only reason to oppose DEI is because you are against Diversity or Equity or Inclusion, ergo you’re a racist or sexist or homophobe or whatever. If the response to someone’s concern about DEI lowering standards/competency for firefighters is “if you need to be rescued from a fire then it’s probably your fault” then you can’t really blame them for their concern.

Lol at “deplorable.” I mean, “how should I react when I know I’m being propagandized” is an interesting and difficult question but right now you seem to be at “I should like, share, and subscribe” so it might be more useful to first focus on whether that’s the right response, and why/why not. I mean, I honestly feel like if anti-cancel culture BJ has been at the wheel instead of anti-woke BJ you would already have started from “we need the full context”/“has the accused had a chance to respond”/“isn’t everybody being oversensitive/jumping to conclusions” by default. But because the propagandists’ axe to grind happens to also be an axe you’re always looking to grind, we bypassed all those cautious/contrarian impulses and went straight to valueless mockery.

I think the statement sucks but is of absolutely no importance. You think the statement sucks but also seem to think it’s important and relevant to the fires somehow. If I wrote down a list of the top 100 skills I think an assistant chief of the fire brigade should have, I don’t think “make smart statements about the importance of DEI” would have made my list. But weirdly, I don’t think it would make your list either, which is why it seems strange that you think this person’s apparent lack of that skill is of grave public import.

Possibly you’re taking all this at face value and you really believe that the assistant chief of the LAFD thinks married men trapped in burning buildings deserve to die. That would be troubling, I suppose. “Big if true” as they say. But to me that just doesn’t pass a basic plausibility test. Maybe when she’s done fighting some of the worst fires in LA’s history we could ask her to clarify if she really believes that before erecting the gallows?


I dont think it has any relevance to the fires actually. I also don’t think she should be fired or “cancelled” for that comment. I think it’s a deplorable thing to say and the audacity of saying that out loud is what I find most outrageous. Also not sure how this counts as propaganda simply because the right-wing outrage machine drummed it up. Most of this thread is just shit that has come through someone’s algorithm to be outraged over. It’s just most of the time it’s about Joe Rogan or Alex Jones or whoever.


When Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, Elon Musk or Trump lie or say dumb shit, it's the boy who cried wolf. It's a pattern of behavior by one single person. Not just a person, but an abusive person in some instances such as AJ, Trump and Elon. Only JR is not known to be abusive, however he knowingly hosts harmful people on his podcast. They create an entire culture of harm.

Meanwhile right-wingers find one person making one inflammatory statement. One. And that receives attention why exactly? Is that one person relevant in the grand scheme of things? Where's the comparable culture of harm?


Over the years I've posted hundreds of examples of things becoming shittier because of wokeism run amok. It's easy to zoom in on any one example and say "That's one little thing, what's the big deal."

If you want to talk about harm it's when the only supermarket in a historically black neighborhood closes down after 4 decades in business due to rampant theft and safety concerns ushered in by soft on crime policies that give shoplifters carte blanche to take what they want. Or the only pharmacy in a historically black district in Oakland closing for similar reasons creating a pharmacy desert for vulnerable seniors. Of course among the hardcore woke it's impossible that their soft-on-crime progressive politics led to these store closures. It's easier to just blame greedy corporations that don't want their merchandise walking out the door and then propose common sense solutions like allowing people to sue grocery stores for closing lol

Grocery deserts, pharmacy deserts, rampant crime and car break-ins, prolonged school closures from COVID lockdowns, homeless encampments, fentanyl overdoses, the decimation of small businesses. No. No, no no. The real harm is the controversial thing that Joe Rogan said. It's why Trump gained black and hispanic voters in 2024. The Democrat stronghold is becoming the white college educated liberal that has the privilege to care more about what Joe Rogan says than all the shit around them that's making their life harder.

+ Show Spoiler +
Credit where credit is due, California voters overwhelmingly passed a proposition to crackdown on shoplifting by making stiffer penalties, Gavin Newsom has ordered cities to clean up their homeless encampments, Newsom has used the California Highway Patrol to surge into cities dealing with high levels of crime and refused to offer the CHP surge to another city unless they hire more local police. Newsom has also advocated changing pursuit policies that prohibit police from chasing bad guys. Of course I don't credit any of this to wokeists seeing the light, more like Newsom gearing up for a 2028 Presidential run as a moderate.


I have the same question as DPB. How exactly is DEI causing a spike in crime or a reduction in arrests?

DEI is also not inherently good or bad, it depends on how it's done. Right-wingers want to make us believe that it's bad in every instance, but in reality it has mostly brought improvements. Furthermore if the Republican party wasn't so obviously anti-representation, there would be far less need for DEI practices. They're one of the main groups that's responsible for the large inequity to begin with. DEI is a countermeasure intended to balance things out. Pointing out examples of poorly done DEI doesn't change the overall positive impact.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5583 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-14 20:19:07
January 14 2025 20:18 GMT
#93850
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

The first question posed in that Forbes report is "What does it mean to be diverse?" and having perused the various testimonials I didn't get any clear answer.

Companies could "agree" the Earth is flat. That doesn't get legitimized just because someone adds a number like oh 78% of companies believe the Earth is flat, look at me I'm doing social science. That part was really the least substantive but it's fair enough to know their public stances, unspecific and wishywashy as they may be.

On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

This doesn't even have post hoc ergo propter hoc going for it. It's pure global temperature vs. number of pirates hocus pocus.

The truth is large things are more diverse as a fact of nature, science, and frankly math. The world is more diverse than a random country. A country is more diverse than a random city in it. This is not causative.

"EBIT" is a gross metric. It is roughly a measure related to how large a company is because of how much business they're doing. Bank of America is larger than Mom and Pop's Laundromat and has higher earnings and profits. Bank of America also owns their own office building in a downtown area. If Mom and Pop were to enter the commercial real estate market and purchase their own office building, it would engender no further success to their laundromat. The office building is not making Bank of America better than the laundromat. They're different size organizations doing different things in different fields, with different goals and measures of success. The downtown office building could even potentially be a liability to the laundromat if Mom and Pop purchased it, depending on their cashflow. This is again not causative.

Next let's look at "quartiles." Percentiles are great because whatever your distribution, you can cut them into percents. If you give a multiple choice final exam with resulting scores between 90 and 100, there will still be a bottom percentile and a top percentile. That doesn't mean the bottom percentile is bad, objectively or even subjectively. It doesn't mean anything by itself. Now if it doesn't mean anything when you have something clearly objective which is a numerical test score from questions with right and wrong answers - imagine how little it must mean when it's a matter of social construct diversity (I again have no idea what it means to be diverse in race and ethnicity and gender, which is fine, but I would at least like to know what the researchers think, which I didn't find, so I don't know whether for example Italians and Irish are considered the same social construct race or not, etc).

For a second I'm going to make a mean=median assumption out of both laziness and necessity. If you want to correlate gender diversity to success, I would assume it should go thuslywise: The top 50% of your companies by gender diversity should have a more than 50% chance of being above average in your earnings/profits/whatever performance metric. If everyone above average in gender diversity has a 50% chance to be above or below, that would be random, and completely uncorrelated. Now forget the bottom half of the top half. So the top quartile, the top 25%. They're only 15% "more likely" to be above average? More than random, which is a coinflip? Meaning the top 25% of companies in gender diversity are 50+0.15*50 = have a 57.5% chance to be above average in... earnings? There is nothing here that isn't totally explainable by big things are usually less homogeneous, and that big companies follow trends.

And that's for a symmetric case, in a skew case it might be even more vanishing if I sit and think about it.

On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better


Is there a peak diversity to optimize for or is the goal pure maximization? Does there come a peak which after you reach, increased diversity becomes a negative drawback? In other words among a jury of 12 peers, do you want each one from a different social construct, or do you want half from one and half from another, or...? What are the ballpark ratios of social constructs we should shoot for?

If juries and races are hard because there's so many, how about doing gender since it's simpler to compare something binary. What should the ratio of men to women be on tech company boards? (Approximately.) Shoot for 50/50?

On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

This idea goes against many people’s intuitions. There’s a common bias that psychologists call the fluency heuristic: We prefer information that is processed more easily, or fluently, judging it to be truer or more beautiful. The effect partially explains that we gain greater appreciation of songs or paintings when they become familiar because they’re more easily processed. The fluency heuristic leads many people to study incorrectly; they often simply reread the material. The information becomes more familiar without much effort, and so they feel that they’re learning. But in a 2011 study students performed better on a test after studying the text once and then trying to recall as much as they could, a strenuous task, than they did by repeatedly going over the text, even though they predicted that rereading was the key to learning. Similarly, confronting opinions you disagree with might not seem like the quickest path to getting things done, but working in groups can be like studying (or exercising): no pain, no gain."

https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Note to self: When forming a police department, hire everyone who graduated in a 4 year range from the same university but different fraternities and sororities.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5554 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-14 21:52:28
January 14 2025 21:25 GMT
#93851
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2610 Posts
January 14 2025 22:23 GMT
#93852
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

Show nested quote +
"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

Show nested quote +
"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

Show nested quote +
"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44316 Posts
January 14 2025 23:00 GMT
#93853
On January 15 2025 05:18 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

The first question posed in that Forbes report is "What does it mean to be diverse?" and having perused the various testimonials I didn't get any clear answer.


It was in the quote, and it's the first line of text in the Key Findings of the article: "a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds". The last sentence / bullet point additionally mentions gender diversity, disability, and age. Page 5 also mentions that companies are looking to "foster inclusion among women and other minorities". Et cetera.

Companies could "agree" the Earth is flat. That doesn't get legitimized just because someone adds a number like oh 78% of companies believe the Earth is flat


Sure. I think the "legitimizing" part is that companies who invest in DEI are generally doing better than companies who aren't. That may not always be completely causal, and it may not be the most important factor when assessing a company's success, but there certainly does seem to be something there. If companies tried out DEI and found it was unhelpful and a waste of time and money, then they would have ditched it. Instead, they seem to be finding value in considering diversity, equity, and inclusion alongside all the other job-specific qualifications and credentials.

Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

This doesn't even have post hoc ergo propter hoc going for it. It's pure global temperature vs. number of pirates hocus pocus.

The truth is large things are more diverse as a fact of nature, science, and frankly math. The world is more diverse than a random country. A country is more diverse than a random city in it. This is not causative.

"EBIT" is a gross metric. It is roughly a measure related to how large a company is because of how much business they're doing. Bank of America is larger than Mom and Pop's Laundromat and has higher earnings and profits. Bank of America also owns their own office building in a downtown area. If Mom and Pop were to enter the commercial real estate market and purchase their own office building, it would engender no further success to their laundromat. The office building is not making Bank of America better than the laundromat. They're different size organizations doing different things in different fields, with different goals and measures of success. The downtown office building could even potentially be a liability to the laundromat if Mom and Pop purchased it, depending on their cashflow. This is again not causative.


I don't think you read the cited study in that article. They didn't compare large companies to small companies. They compared large companies to other large companies. "Mom and Pop's Laundromat" is not part of this conversation. From the very first paragraph in the Executive Summary:
"Our “Diversity Matters” research looked at the relationship between the level of diversity (defined as a greater share
of women and a more mixed ethnic/racial composition in the leadership of large companies) and company financial
performance (measured as average EBIT 2010–2013). The research is based on financial data and leadership
demographics compiled for this purpose from hundreds of organisations and thousands of executives in the
United Kingdom, Canada, Latin America, and the United States.
The size of the dataset allows for results that are
statistically significant and the analysis is the first that we are aware of that measures how much the relationship
between diversity and performance is worth in terms of increased profitability."
https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/business functions/people and organizational performance/our insights/why diversity matters/diversity matters.pdf

Next let's look at "quartiles." Percentiles are great because whatever your distribution, you can cut them into percents. If you give a multiple choice final exam with resulting scores between 90 and 100, there will still be a bottom percentile and a top percentile. That doesn't mean the bottom percentile is bad, objectively or even subjectively. It doesn't mean anything by itself. Now if it doesn't mean anything when you have something clearly objective which is a numerical test score from questions with right and wrong answers - imagine how little it must mean when it's a matter of social construct diversity (I again have no idea what it means to be diverse in race and ethnicity and gender, which is fine, but I would at least like to know what the researchers think, which I didn't find, so I don't know whether for example Italians and Irish are considered the same social construct race or not, etc).

For a second I'm going to make a mean=median assumption out of both laziness and necessity. If you want to correlate gender diversity to success, I would assume it should go thuslywise: The top 50% of your companies by gender diversity should have a more than 50% chance of being above average in your earnings/profits/whatever performance metric. If everyone above average in gender diversity has a 50% chance to be above or below, that would be random, and completely uncorrelated. Now forget the bottom half of the top half. So the top quartile, the top 25%. They're only 15% "more likely" to be above average? More than random, which is a coinflip? Meaning the top 25% of companies in gender diversity are 50+0.15*50 = have a 57.5% chance to be above average in... earnings? There is nothing here that isn't totally explainable by big things are usually less homogeneous, and that big companies follow trends.

And that's for a symmetric case, in a skew case it might be even more vanishing if I sit and think about it.


I agree with you that falling into the bottom quartile/percentile isn't inherently bad and reaching the top quartile/percentile isn't inherently good if there's no context at all... but there is context! To repeat the above quote, they assessed "performance in terms of increased profitability". I'm not sure if you want to actually argue that that's a bad thing, but certainly companies consider that to be a good thing. Top quartile/percentile (higher performance, increased profitability) is considered to be valuable and important for businesses.

Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better


Is there a peak diversity to optimize for or is the goal pure maximization? Does there come a peak which after you reach, increased diversity becomes a negative drawback? In other words among a jury of 12 peers, do you want each one from a different social construct, or do you want half from one and half from another, or...? What are the ballpark ratios of social constructs we should shoot for?

If juries and races are hard because there's so many, how about doing gender since it's simpler to compare something binary. What should the ratio of men to women be on tech company boards? (Approximately.) Shoot for 50/50?


I don't think there is a perfect way to diversify these sorts of scenarios, and I'm sure every context is a little different. The "ideal" diversification for your jury situation, for example, might depend on who the defendant is.

Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

This idea goes against many people’s intuitions. There’s a common bias that psychologists call the fluency heuristic: We prefer information that is processed more easily, or fluently, judging it to be truer or more beautiful. The effect partially explains that we gain greater appreciation of songs or paintings when they become familiar because they’re more easily processed. The fluency heuristic leads many people to study incorrectly; they often simply reread the material. The information becomes more familiar without much effort, and so they feel that they’re learning. But in a 2011 study students performed better on a test after studying the text once and then trying to recall as much as they could, a strenuous task, than they did by repeatedly going over the text, even though they predicted that rereading was the key to learning. Similarly, confronting opinions you disagree with might not seem like the quickest path to getting things done, but working in groups can be like studying (or exercising): no pain, no gain."

https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Note to self: When forming a police department, hire everyone who graduated in a 4 year range from the same university but different fraternities and sororities.


Very funny.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5554 Posts
January 14 2025 23:09 GMT
#93854
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8983 Posts
January 14 2025 23:13 GMT
#93855
On January 15 2025 08:09 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.

Ever think there might be a problem that needs solving? How a white guy problem solves vs an indian or black guy might be one of those things. They might have a more elegant solution instead of brute forcing it. Or maybe the brute force works. But you wouldn't know if there wasn't someone to offer that perspective. There are a myriad of reasons why you want diversity.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5554 Posts
January 14 2025 23:38 GMT
#93856
On January 15 2025 08:13 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 08:09 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.

Ever think there might be a problem that needs solving? How a white guy problem solves vs an indian or black guy might be one of those things. They might have a more elegant solution instead of brute forcing it. Or maybe the brute force works. But you wouldn't know if there wasn't someone to offer that perspective. There are a myriad of reasons why you want diversity.

I have yet to see people approach technical problems differently due to their ethnicity or gender. As I said, those top companies hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools. Pick ten random white dudes from Poland and I'm pretty sure you'll end up with a much more diverse range of opinions and life experiences than ten random people at some Apple or General Electric.
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4765 Posts
January 14 2025 23:38 GMT
#93857
I think I've read somewhere that people who have different native language literally think differently. Or perhaps that's embedded through the culture that's expressed in that language - doesn't really matter. In any case, it's one of the easiest ways of providing more potential problem solving strategies that can then hybridize and innovate in new strategies.

If you never bother to understand how hydras and mutas can help with your comps, when they're there in the tech tree without needing to put that many resources into it, you're just going to be stuck doing zergling all ins for the rest of your life.
Taxes are for Terrans
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17983 Posts
January 14 2025 23:46 GMT
#93858
On January 15 2025 08:09 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.

Culture is about a lot more than just what food you eat. For instance, if there were more black people working in AI, maybe the racist bias of many AI applications would've been detected and worked on more: technical work is only for a small part about how you do it, and a lot is about what you choose to do with your time. And what you spend it on is for a large part dependent on who is funding the work. If all the decision makers are white males, you'll predominantly build products that work for white males and that they are interested in buying. Very few white males will conceive things that they themselves would not be interested in buying; not out of malice, but just because you usually see use for others in things you yourself find useful. E.g. as a white male my chance of having sickle cell anemia is tiny and that goes for my entire family and most of my friends. So it's not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. A black person will generally be far more exposed to the disease and the harm it does, so they'll be more likely to push for working on it.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8983 Posts
January 15 2025 00:19 GMT
#93859
On January 15 2025 08:38 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 08:13 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On January 15 2025 08:09 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.

Ever think there might be a problem that needs solving? How a white guy problem solves vs an indian or black guy might be one of those things. They might have a more elegant solution instead of brute forcing it. Or maybe the brute force works. But you wouldn't know if there wasn't someone to offer that perspective. There are a myriad of reasons why you want diversity.

I have yet to see people approach technical problems differently due to their ethnicity or gender. As I said, those top companies hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools. Pick ten random white dudes from Poland and I'm pretty sure you'll end up with a much more diverse range of opinions and life experiences than ten random people at some Apple or General Electric.

If you stay in a bubble and don't get out and mingle with other cultures/ethnicities/genders, then sure, you're right. But I'll put 1000USD that if you take those 10 random Poles and 10 random people ask them to make something architecture, the diversity will be greater amongst the random people and not the Poles. Same goes for other technical fields. Your cultural identity and history makes up part of your problem solving.

Also what the two above me said.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9618 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-01-15 01:19:43
January 15 2025 00:26 GMT
#93860
On January 15 2025 08:38 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2025 08:13 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On January 15 2025 08:09 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 07:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On January 15 2025 06:25 maybenexttime wrote:
On January 15 2025 00:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"Diversity is a key driver of innovation and is a critical component of being successful on a global scale. Senior executives are recognizing that a diverse set of experiences, perspectives, and backgrounds is crucial to innovation and the development of new ideas. ...
A diverse and inclusive workforce is crucial for companies that want to attract and retain top talent. ...
The business case for diversity and inclusion is intrinsically linked to a company’s innovation strategy. Multiple and varied voices have a wide range of experiences, and this can help generate new ideas about products and practices. ...
This is particularly true for the largest companies. Among companies with more than $10 billion in annual revenues, 56% strongly agreed that diversity helps drive innovation. “Because of our diverse workforce, we’ve experienced a boost in productivity. When you can move people to contribute to their fullest, it has a tremendous impact,” noted Rosalind Hudnell, director of global diversity and inclusion at chip maker Intel. ...
Respondents in Asia also were more likely to see a link between diversity and innovation. In the APAC region, 56% “strongly agreed” with this notion, compared to 48% in the Americas and 41% in EMEA. “In Asia Pacific, we’re focused on leveraging diverse skills in growth markets and getting better gender representation in senior management,” explained Niki Kesglou, head of diversity and inclusion, Asia Pacific, for financial services firm Credit Suisse. ...
In the fight for global talent, diversity and inclusion policies are being designed specifically as recruiting and retention tools, helping to broaden the pool of talent a company can recruit from, while also helping to build an employment brand that is seen as fully inclusive. “If you want to attract the best talent, you need to be reflective of the talent in that market,” said Eileen Taylor, Deutsche Bank’s global head of diversity. ...
“The recruitment of diverse talent for our organization is critical to our ability to build our business and drive future growth,” said Sumita Banerjee, vice president, talent recruitment at L’Oréal USA.
https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Innovation_Through_Diversity.pdf

These are opinions, not evidence.

"Companies in the top quartile for racial and ethnic diversity are 35 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. Companies in the top quartile for gender diversity are 15 percent more likely to have financial returns above their respective national industry medians. ...
Companies in the bottom quartile both for gender and for ethnicity and race are statistically less likely to achieve above-average financial returns than the average companies in the data set (that is, bottom-quartile companies are lagging rather than merely not leading).
In the United States, there is a linear relationship between racial and ethnic diversity and better financial performance: for every 10 percent increase in racial and ethnic diversity on the senior-executive team, earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) rise 0.8 percent.
In the United Kingdom, greater gender diversity on the senior-executive team corresponded to the highest performance uplift in our data set: for every 10 percent increase in gender diversity, EBIT rose by 3.5 percent."
https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters

Correlation =/= causation. It might be that those better performing companies can afford to have DEI-based hiring policy. Would be interesting if they studied how change in diversity was correlated with change in EBIT (while accounting for other factors).

"In numerous studies, diversity — both inherent (e.g., race, gender) and acquired (experience, cultural background) — is associated with business success. For example, a 2009 analysis of 506 companies found that firms with more racial or gender diversity had more sales revenue, more customers, and greater profits. A 2016 analysis of more than 20,000 firms in 91 countries found that companies with more female executives were more profitable. In a 2011 study management teams exhibiting a wider range of educational and work backgrounds produced more-innovative products. These are mere correlations, but laboratory experiments have also shown the direct effect of diversity on team performance. In a 2006 study of mock juries, for example, when black people were added to the jury, white jurors processed the case facts more carefully and deliberated more effectively."
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better

Again, correlation =/= causation.

"Homogenous Teams Feel Easier — but Easy Is Bad for Performance

A revealing 2009 study of fraternity and sorority members published in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin offers a remarkable window into the workings of diverse and homogenous teams. Fraternity and sorority membership conveys a powerful group identity, much like political or religious affiliation, and consequently can create a strong sense of similarity (or dissimilarity) with others. In the experiment, teams were asked to solve a murder mystery. First, students were individually given 20 minutes to study the clues and pinpoint the likely suspect. Next, they were placed into teams of three with fellow members from the same Greek house and given 20 minutes to discuss the case together and provide a joint answer. Five minutes into the discussion, however, they were joined by a fourth team member, someone from either their own house or another one.

After collectively naming their suspect, members individually rated aspects of the discussion. More diverse groups — those joined by someone from outside their own fraternity or sorority — judged the team interactions to be less effective than did groups joined by insiders. They were also less confident in their final decisions.

Intuitively, this makes sense: On a homogenous team, people readily understand each other and collaboration flows smoothly, giving the sensation of progress. Dealing with outsiders causes friction, which feels counterproductive.

But in this case their judgments were starkly wrong. Among groups where all three original members didn’t already know the correct answer, adding an outsider versus an insider actually doubled their chance of arriving at the correct solution, from 29% to 60%. The work felt harder, but the outcomes were better.

In fact, working on diverse teams produces better outcomes precisely because it’s harder.

How is this study even relevant? It did not investigate the influence of diversity as defined by the proponents of DEI policies, which is based entirely on superficial characteristics like gender or ethnicity. They studied something entirely unrelated, just gave it the same name. I bet that the groups they tested were all diverse in terms of gender and ethnicity. Would be interesting if they compared homogeneous groups against diverse ones instead. Would be a bit embarrassing if they found no difference, though.

I still can't quite grasp how this whole diversity would have any impact in technical fields. They hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools and they expect a team with more varied skin colors to perform better. Like, how exactly does that affect how you write code or design a chemical process or whatever?


The general reasoning for diversity being good for companies is quite simple.

Companies try to make "things" that people want to "buy". The world is diverse and men/women/different cultures/age and countries like different things. Having people from different backgrounds helps you understand more people better, thus making it easier to make things more people like.
An obvious example would be having a marketing or sales department of only white men in their 30s if you are trying to sell products for women or in another country.
It could be more or a lot less important but even in technical fields I've seen examples (like making a medical device that is to heavy or big for prolonged use by people with generally smaller hands, like women. When 70% of your target market are women...).

As we have seen recently (not fires, more like beer commercials) it can also go the wrong way if you are diverse for diversity's sake and start applying it everywhere.

So in general diversity is a good thing because it helps companies see things from different angles which can help them avoid problems with different consumer groups or identify opportunities in other. But it's probably not that important for all parts of the company.

Sure, you can make a reasonable case for things like marketing or sales. I was talking mostly about technical fields. I fail to see how whether someone eats curry or schnitzel has any bearing on how they do their job.

Ever think there might be a problem that needs solving? How a white guy problem solves vs an indian or black guy might be one of those things. They might have a more elegant solution instead of brute forcing it. Or maybe the brute force works. But you wouldn't know if there wasn't someone to offer that perspective. There are a myriad of reasons why you want diversity.

I have yet to see people approach technical problems differently due to their ethnicity or gender. As I said, those top companies hire intelligent people who graduated from the same universities, studied from the same textbooks, were taught the same analytical methods, and learned the same tools. Pick ten random white dudes from Poland and I'm pretty sure you'll end up with a much more diverse range of opinions and life experiences than ten random people at some Apple or General Electric.


that you haven’t seen it only betrays a lack of experience on your part. it is painfully clear to those who have. people with different life experiences bring different perspectives, attitudes, methodologies, to problem solving.

your pickem is obviously wrong. you will not. it’s silly that you would believe otherwise, but this is that very evident lack of experience at work. you ever hear the phrase ‘if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail’?

at the end of the day it’s not my job to educate you, and i’m not going to. the research is out there feel free to look at it or don’t.
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