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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 26 2024 01:16 Gorsameth wrote: oBlade isn't dim, he knows what he's doing. Yeah, now the conversation is about whether the origin of a word determines what it can mean, which it doesn't, instead of it being about Trump repeating right-wing, white nationalist talking points in regards to migrants, which is what he's doing. Non-Trumpers: holds up a mirror Trumpers: "the radical left's hyperbolic rhetoric is destroying America!" | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22983 Posts
On September 26 2024 00:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: To anyone who wants to make the USA a better place I have a message. Please, donate whatever $$$ you can to the Innocence Project. Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld only defend innocent men via the Innocence Project. Their reputation is impeccable. Marcellus Williams was executed last night. Marcellus Williams was innocent. https://innocenceproject.org/cases/marcellus-williams/ This is a sad tragedy. Once again, corrupted lab evidence was a major factor. My mother runs a lab. My grandma ran a hospital medical lab and a univeristy medical lab for 30 years. I come from a medical family. I've got stories for days. I could tell you stuff about Wade Lawson, Muriel Holland, and Paul Bernarndo that will never see the light of day. My mom and grandma worked in the labs that processed these cases. Just a brief google of these names and you can tell something is fishy happened. You can tell the cops are comprised in some way in these cases. Prosecutors turn lab science into a religion. The Innocence Project fights this evil with every $ you donate. Donate if you can. In Democrats effort to turn into 80's Republicans, they recently dropped their opposition to the death penalty from their platform (and the Harris campaign has been refusing to answer questions about whether she still supports abolishing the death penalty for about a month). In the 2024 party platform, there is no mention of police brutality. “We need to fund the police, not defund the police,” the text reads—a marked shift from previous progressive messaging. Though the platform calls for things like restricting state and local practices such as solitary confinement, it simultaneously argues that there needs to be more police on the streets in order to protect communities. Democrats also do not have opposition to the death penalty on their platform for the first time since 2012. By comparison, in the Democratic Party’s 2020 platform, they dedicated an entire section to “reforming our criminal justice system,” explicitly calling out mass incarceration, saying the criminal justice system is “failing” the nation, calling for an “overhaul [of] the criminal justice system from top to bottom” and stating that “police brutality is a stain on the soul of our nation.” It also focused heavily on community-oriented policing. There’s no mention of “mass incarceration” in the 2024 platform time.com | ||
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oBlade
United States5404 Posts
On September 26 2024 01:40 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, now the conversation is about whether the origin of a word determines what it can mean, which it doesn't, instead of it being about Trump repeating right-wing, You know, you got me. Fair and square. Okay. Drumpf is right-wing. I will graciously stipulate. As of 2024, that's still not a crime. But as long as you feel this way, please do me a favor and start an email campaign telling all the Republicans who believe he's actually not a conservative, and he's a Democrat in disguise, that he's right wing. I'll furnish you their contact info if you like. It would be most helpful if you got around to this little task before November. On September 26 2024 01:40 NewSunshine wrote: white nationalist talking points in regards to migrants, which is what he's doing. Please be kind enough to help us understand what these specific white nationalist talking points in regards to migrants are, because I don't think you recently have, although you keep alluding. This thread started with a 15 post account saying a single word was "...(insert deplorable synonyms)" and it's hard to understand a single word as "rhetoric" or a "talking point." Actually, before that, would you just remind us by elaborating what non-white nationalist rhetoric against immigration looks like? So we know what the rules are ahead of time? Or if there's no such set of acceptable rhetoric, we'd need to know that before going any further. Because I've heard the same things for 10 years and if this is a case where the concept of deporting illegal immigrants from a country must inherently be "white nationalist," then we're at an impasse where only half of us even agrees with the idea of the existence of countries. Here's all I found. We will... return Kamala's illegal immigrants to their home countries (also known as remigration) It doesn't sound particularly white nationalist, or indeed controversial at all, to me, maybe had he said "illegal immigrants except the proud Aryan ones" I'd find issue. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On September 26 2024 00:32 BlackJack wrote: Is “death squads” hyperbolic? He was pondering Trump signing a bill to give ICE authority to “shoot to kill” anyone that resists them. Is there a better name for teams of people employed by the government authorized to carry out extrajudicial killings to achieve their mission? To your main point, it sounds impossible to deport millions of people in days. I don’t know how barbaric something that won’t happen would look if it could happen. Probably very? If some state signed a bill authorizing cops to shoot to kill someone’s resisting arrest, would you consider all police in that state “death squads” from that point forward? I tend to doubt it. Not that I’m worried specifically about such a bill, I think most of Trump’s ambitions are intended to be done purely with executive authority. If (let’s say hypothetically) amoral, questionably competent men were asking you to give them a huge amount of power, and promising to use it to perpetrate enormous, impossibly ambitious cruelties, I suppose I’d agree with you that if given power, they’re unlikely to accomplish exactly what they’re promising. More likely they’ll try and fail in various bizarre ways, accomplishing merely large but ordinary cruelty along the way. Still, I’d understand their opposition choosing the rhetorical approach of essentially quoting their promises verbatim and arguing “That would be really bad, yeah?” And I would, um, question the priorities of someone whose first impulse in such a situation was to accuse the opposition of hyperbole. | ||
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Billyboy
679 Posts
On September 25 2024 23:44 oBlade wrote: Anyone familiar with English immediately knows and understands the concepts and distinctions covered by the words migration, emigration, immigration, and remigration. Same with expatriation and repatriation. The interesting part is when you google all the words you have listed except remigration you get definitions. With remigration you get either white nationalists tweets or articles explaining why white nationalists use the word. I'm not sure if English is your first language but remigration is just not used outside of those circles, as far as I can tell it is a dead word. I did find a Webster's definition but it talked about how it was used about the Irish and Jews, which given the time period also tells you something about it even when it was common. And then Kwark's post really takes all the guess work out, if you are reposting from nazis there is no mystery left. I think people mistakenly think that this somehow means all Trump supporters are white nationalists, which it does not. What it means is that Trump is actively courting white nationalists. You can decide if that is OK with you or not but it simply fact. | ||
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Sadist
United States7205 Posts
On September 26 2024 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: In Democrats effort to turn into 80's Republicans, they recently dropped their opposition to the death penalty from their platform (and the Harris campaign has been refusing to answer questions about whether she still supports abolishing the death penalty for about a month). time.com With mass shooters and the like who are 100% certainly guilty, caught red handed in the act and no possibility that you get the wrong person, i would imagine the opposition to the death penalty would be near zero in this instance. Those people deserve to go. Its why we shouldnt have blanket statements/policies. | ||
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brian
United States9616 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:31 Sadist wrote: With mass shooters and the like who are 100% certainly guilty, caught red handed in the act and no possibility that you get the wrong person, i would imagine the opposition to the death penalty would be near zero in this instance. Those people deserve to go. Its why we shouldnt have blanket statements/policies. i don’t think you’re right. i think there are many, many people who still think a mass killer who is guaranteed (hypothetically) to have done it should live the rest of his life in prison. i think abolishing the death penalty with the upside of not murdering innocent people and the downside of allowing guilty people to serve a life sentence is a very easy call for me, personally, to make with 100% certainty of all possible hypotheticals you could toss at me. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11402 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:19 Billyboy wrote: The interesting part is when you google all the words you have listed except remigration you get definitions. With remigration you get either white nationalists tweets or articles explaining why white nationalists use the word. I'm not sure if English is your first language but remigration is just not used outside of those circles, as far as I can tell it is a dead word. I did find a Webster's definition but it talked about how it was used about the Irish and Jews, which given the time period also tells you something about it even when it was common. And then Kwark's post really takes all the guess work out, if you are reposting from nazis there is no mystery left. I think people mistakenly think that this somehow means all Trump supporters are white nationalists, which it does not. What it means is that Trump is actively courting white nationalists. You can decide if that is OK with you or not but it simply fact. Funnily enough, the word "remigration" has also become very popular with our current German hard-right assholes. | ||
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Billyboy
679 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:31 Sadist wrote: With mass shooters and the like who are 100% certainly guilty, caught red handed in the act and no possibility that you get the wrong person, i would imagine the opposition to the death penalty would be near zero in this instance. Those people deserve to go. Its why we shouldnt have blanket statements/policies. I'm for the abolishment for the death penalty and not because I do not think the world would be better off with some people dead, and also not only because I'm worried about innocent people killed (though I very much am worried). One of the main reasons is the logistics of it. To make it safe from mistakes you need to have a incredible amount of checks and balances, ones that currently do not exist in the US to a point that stops mistakes. And even with the current US level it is more expensive to put someone to death that it is to put them in prison for life. For me personally life in prison without the chance at parole is close enough to death as a punishment that the extra cost to society is not worth it. And then when you consider all the mistakes that are made it just becomes a slam dunk to get rid of. Now that the Dems took it off their list wouldn't change my voting one tiny bit, most obviously because the Republicans want more death penalty so for someone with my beliefs they are worse. Next it seems to be more of a state issue and the blue states do a much better job (imo) than the red ones so regardless of what their official list is their actions fall closer to my beliefs. A bigger issue for me is how pedophiles are punished. Pedophiles are in my book much worse than murderers, they often are "serial" offenders and there is no documented successful rehabilitation. That it is not life without parole disturbs me. I don't know if it is just because you do not hear about it, so this part I could be wrong on, but it also appears that far less people are wrongly convicted of pedophilia than murder. | ||
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Billyboy
679 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:58 Simberto wrote: Funnily enough, the word "remigration" has also become very popular with our current German hard-right assholes. I was reading that when it came up, that it is more commonly used across Europe but massively in Germany, (paraphrase incoming) even that there was some semi secret meeting about getting all non German blood out of the country , and that Frances far right even thought it was too far. Is this a term you hear fairly regularly in Germany? Like would an average German know what it meant or does it go over most peoples heads if they are not part of the pure German blood crowd? And does it sound as awkward in German as English? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10335 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:12 ChristianS wrote: If some state signed a bill authorizing cops to shoot to kill someone’s resisting arrest, would you consider all police in that state “death squads” from that point forward? I tend to doubt it. Not that I’m worried specifically about such a bill, I think most of Trump’s ambitions are intended to be done purely with executive authority. If (let’s say hypothetically) amoral, questionably competent men were asking you to give them a huge amount of power, and promising to use it to perpetrate enormous, impossibly ambitious cruelties, I suppose I’d agree with you that if given power, they’re unlikely to accomplish exactly what they’re promising. More likely they’ll try and fail in various bizarre ways, accomplishing merely large but ordinary cruelty along the way. Still, I’d understand their opposition choosing the rhetorical approach of essentially quoting their promises verbatim and arguing “That would be really bad, yeah?” And I would, um, question the priorities of someone whose first impulse in such a situation was to accuse the opposition of hyperbole. Just to be clear, if Trump got reelected and gave ICE or some paramilitary group directive to round up all the immigrants and shoot to kill anyone that resisted you would object to people in the thread calling them “Trump’s death squads” on grounds of hyperbole? I find that hard to believe. | ||
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Introvert
United States4682 Posts
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oBlade
United States5404 Posts
On September 26 2024 02:19 Billyboy wrote: The interesting part is when you google all the words you have listed except remigration you get definitions. With remigration you get either white nationalists tweets or articles explaining why white nationalists use the word. That shows nothing more than despicable ideological capture of media in the Anglosphere. It's imperative for them to head off at the pass any development that suggests leftist policy about immigration is wrong, and simply lambast any opposition to it by whatever pejorative means available. The reason you can find more white nationalists using it in Europe is European countries are also ethnicities, so first of all they have more of those movements (Europe is more racist than the US, although I don't want to get into the race realist details of whether those from Hispania count as white supremacists or whatever else is important in modern leftist discourse), but also it's more plausible to label any old sap who still believes in the idea of their country's border as a whatever-supremacist when they use the completely innocuous term "remigration." Which even the Swedish government has adopted, by offering money for people to return home. It's that special kind of white supremacist, you know, the one that pays money to "minorities" (I use scare quotes because immigrants always are, and always should be, a minority, in every single country ever, because that's what differentiates countries). However, when for example Koreans have been, and are, repatriated to the DPRK from China, it's not because China is white supremacist. It's not even because China is Chinese supremacist, which it is. When Japan had remigration of foreigners in the wake of Fukushima, it's not because Japan is white supremacist. It's not even because Japan is Japanese supremacist, which it is. It's because they were picking up after a national tragedy. It's because they're countries and that's a policy that exists. Could anyone update me whether the word "deport" is inherently racist or not. I want to know whether kicking someone out of a country by force is less racist than Sweden paying them to leave voluntarily. On September 26 2024 02:19 Billyboy wrote: I did find a Webster's definition but it talked about how it was used about the Irish and Jews, which given the time period also tells you something about it even when it was common. What something does that tell us? "Re" has two meanings, roughly "again" and "back." In the case of Jews, they had been analogous to gypsies, essentially wandering without a home for many years, so my guess is "remigration" in that context referred to repeated migration a la nomadism. As prior to 20th century Zionism there wasn't really a "home" to be sent back to? But please reveal your tacit conclusions, inquiring minds want to know. + Show Spoiler + I'll be honest, I don't think you were really told anything by the use of Irish and Jews in whatever definition you read, you just briefly glanced the mention of what can be categorized as groups that were persecuted at some point or other and thought that was an insight - although Irish are nearly uncontroversially white. But the other half of me is legitimately curious. Please edify us. On September 26 2024 02:19 Billyboy wrote: And then Kwark's post really takes all the guess work out, if you are reposting from nazis there is no mystery left. The 9 year old retweet of a made-up infographic about black crime looks to me like a red herring for Drumpf saying to return illegal immigrants to their homes. On September 26 2024 02:19 Billyboy wrote: I think people mistakenly think that this somehow means all Trump supporters are white nationalists, which it does not. What it means is that Trump is actively courting white nationalists. You can decide if that is OK with you or not but it simply fact. Maybe it actually means that Drumpf is courting people who believe in borders, and it's embarrassing that even white nationalists manage to be smart enough to be in this group - which by opinion polling now reads as a majority of Americans, thanks to years of Drumpf using immigration as one of his flagship issues - while so many of our comrades regrettably fall outside of this seemingly obvious group. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:19 Introvert wrote: A silly debate, Biden abused (putting it mildly) the law to allow tens or hundreds or thousands of people in who shouldn't never have been allowed to cross the border, but it's Hitlarian to say they have to go home. The progressive rachet. I have less sympathy for people taking advantage of our laws and a president more concerned with making himself look good without offending his insane base. I should hope it's not that hard to understand that while people can enter this country illegally, it can also be true that it's inhumane to just kick them out. It's similar to someone stealing bread so they can eat. Yes, they're committing a crime, but the alternative is they starve. Would-be migrants don't have the means to be convenient for everyone else, that's part of the reason so many people migrate, and the reason the USA used to have a reputation as a country that welcomed people in with the promise of a better life. Now, even if you're legal, you get blasted as a dog eater and people hate you for existing. However, saying all that, I'm happy to start saying we should enforce the law and hold people accountable for crimes they've committed. Why don't we start with convicted of 34 counts Trump? I'd be much more willing to sit down and have this discussion if Republicans could hold their guy accountable. If we want to pretend we care about what's legal, and all... | ||
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BlackJack
United States10335 Posts
On September 25 2024 20:44 Acrofales wrote: Trump is going to start world war 3. Who said that? This looks like a right-wing talking point that you are confusing. It's not that Trump will start world war 3. It's that he claims he's the one who will stop it (in other words: Biden/Harris will cause it): https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-issues-world-war-iii-warning-isnt-president-1931064 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-warns-us-approaching-world-war-iii-territory-under-biden-harris-admin-clowns The actual criticism regarding war and Trump is that he will let Russia walk all over Ukraine, which seems to be his policy proposal, from his own words. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/trump-praises-russias-military-record-argument-stop-funding-114048372 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/17/whats-donald-trumps-plan-to-end-russias-war-on-ukraine The most I see regarding Trump causing WW3 is Zelenskyy's take on it. While I personally sympathize with that latter more than with Trump's own take, I wouldn't call Zelenskyy representative of "the left", let alone the people in this thread. https://www.foxnews.com/world/zelenskyy-warns-vances-plan-ukrainian-lands-seized-russia-result-global-showdown Here’s a quote from yourself you said in September 2016 pondering that a stupid Trump may lead us to WW3 Trump advocates actively bullying other countries to "get what he wants". Which tends not to be taken very well on the world stage. I not only think it won't achieve its goals, but will actually backfire quite badly. As long as Trump isn't completely stupid, that only means a tariff war. If he is, it means ww3. You’re right that it’s been dropped this go around after it turned out that Trump wasn’t as much of a chicken hawk as people thought he would be but it was definitely something that was said in the run up to the 2016 elections | ||
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Billyboy
679 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:22 oBlade wrote: That shows nothing more than despicable ideological capture of media in the Anglosphere. It's imperative for them to head off at the pass any development that suggests leftist policy about immigration is wrong, and simply lambast any opposition to it by whatever pejorative means available. The reason you can find more white nationalists using it in Europe is European countries are also ethnicities, so first of all they have more of those movements (Europe is more racist than the US, although I don't want to get into the race realist details of whether those from Hispania count as white supremacists or whatever else is important in modern leftist discourse), but also it's more plausible to label any old sap who still believes in the idea of their country's border as a whatever-supremacist when they use the completely innocuous term "remigration." Which even the Swedish government has adopted, by offering money for people to return home. It's that special kind of white supremacist, you know, the one that pays money to "minorities" (I use scare quotes because immigrants always are, and always should be, a minority, in every single country ever, because that's what differentiates countries). However, when for example Koreans have been, and are, repatriated to the DPRK from China, it's not because China is white supremacist. It's not even because China is Chinese supremacist, which it is. It's because it's a country and that's a policy that exists. Could anyone update me whether the word "deport" is inherently racist or not. I want to know whether kicking someone out of a country by force is less racist than Sweden paying them to leave voluntarily. What something does that tell us? "Re" has two meanings, roughly "again" and "back." In the case of Jews, they had been analogous to gypsies, essentially wandering without a home for many years, so my guess is "remigration" in that context referred to repeated migration a la nomadism. As prior to 20th century Zionism there wasn't really a "home" to be sent back to? But please reveal your tacit conclusions, inquiring minds want to know. + Show Spoiler + I'll be honest, I don't think you were really told anything by the use of Irish and Jews in whatever definition you read, you just briefly glanced the mention of what can be categorized as groups that were persecuted at some point or other and thought that was an insight - although Irish are nearly uncontroversially white. But the other half of me is legitimately curious. Please edify us. The 9 year old retweet of a made-up infographic about black crime looks to me like a red herring for Drumpf saying to return illegal immigrants to their homes. Maybe it actually means that Drumpf is courting people who believe in borders, and it's embarrassing that even white nationalists manage to be smart enough to be in this group - which by opinion polling now reads as a majority of Americans, thanks to years of Drumpf using immigration as one of his flagship issues - while so many of our comrades regrettably fall outside of this seemingly obvious group. I don't think any word is inherently racist, and I think other people were trying to point this out by pointing how words like N****R at one point were not. It involves context, so if some random person used it I wouldn't instantly point at them and yell racist. Now if someone was talking about how immigrants were taking black jobs or calling all the Mexicans rapists, and so on I would. And if they were a politician I would have more scrutiny because they're being thoughtful about their message. Remigration is not a term you ever hear used in regular conversation, if you are reading or hearing out it in 2024 it is either supremist groups or people complaining about supremist groups using it. The Irish, well white, were actually the others back in the day along with the Jews and the Italians. There is a lot of interesting things you can read about how this impacted crime as many Irish and Italians as they had struggling finding regular jobs. It is a strange thing how who people are racist towards have changed but the "others" being bad is fairly consistent. I mean sure it could be another Trump screw up, that is entirely plausible considering his track record. But is that really better? Like I mean morally yes but I'm talking when you are picking the man to lead the most powerful military in the world. Do you really want someone so incompetent that they keep making the same mistake over and over again of retweeting racist material and saying words attached to racists movements? A big draw for Trump initially was that he was going to hire the best, by his own admission he keeps hiring idiots and terrible people. So you could also blame his staff for not stopping this but that just further proves what a terrible pick is for the job. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5588 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:12 Billyboy wrote: I was reading that when it came up, that it is more commonly used across Europe but massively in Germany, (paraphrase incoming) even that there was some semi secret meeting about getting all non German blood out of the country , and that Frances far right even thought it was too far. Is this a term you hear fairly regularly in Germany? Like would an average German know what it meant or does it go over most peoples heads if they are not part of the pure German blood crowd? And does it sound as awkward in German as English? Re-migration is a very common word in Sweden too. The government plans to offer up to 35 000 bucks per person who re-migrates from 2026 and the opposition parties aren't even particularly critical about it. Most of the people here are clear about the absurd amount of damage our migration policies have caused over the last 15 years. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:36 BlackJack wrote: Here’s a quote from yourself you said in September 2016 pondering that a stupid Trump may lead us to WW3 That was also a conditional statement, wherein the more likely outcome was a tariff war. Which is exactly what Trump did, and is still doing, promising that tariffs will somehow pay for everything he's promising to do. But congratulations, you found a quote from 8 years ago where someone considered Trump starting WW3 as a remote possibility. Anything to avoid being wrong on the internet, eh? | ||
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Billyboy
679 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:19 Introvert wrote: A silly debate, Biden abused (putting it mildly) the law to allow tens or hundreds or thousands of people in who shouldn't never have been allowed to cross the border, but it's Hitlarian to say they have to go home. The progressive rachet. I have less sympathy for people taking advantage of our laws and a president more concerned with making himself look good without offending his insane base. Why is there no talk from the Republican party about going after all the businesses who are hiring illegals? By the rhetoric these people should be considered traitors who are hurting America by lining their pockets by paying people who shouldn't be there much less than Americans (especially when you consider total compensation). How knowing that the vast majority of illegals in the US get into the US legally and just staying would you put such a massive amount of money into a giant wall that even if effective (which is not since everyone since medieval times knows you need to guard a wall or they are super easy to pass), will barely stop a trickle of the problem? As shown by Trumps actions (blocking the Republican immigration bill) he does not want to solve anything, he wants more problems so he can blame others for them | ||
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Simberto
Germany11402 Posts
On September 26 2024 03:12 Billyboy wrote: I was reading that when it came up, that it is more commonly used across Europe but massively in Germany, (paraphrase incoming) even that there was some semi secret meeting about getting all non German blood out of the country , and that Frances far right even thought it was too far. Is this a term you hear fairly regularly in Germany? Like would an average German know what it meant or does it go over most peoples heads if they are not part of the pure German blood crowd? And does it sound as awkward in German as English? As far as i know, it was completely unknown and unused about a year ago. I haven't heard it used ever before the whole hubbub you mention. Our main hard-right party loves it, and as you mention, had this semi-secret meeting about that topic, which is when the word became commonly known. It is currently known by most politically interested people, but only in the context of being a rightwing propaganda term. No one who is not hard-right uses it except when talking about stuff the hard-right said. | ||
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