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On August 23 2024 22:00 WombaT wrote:Ya love to see it That said, things feel a bit more positive than before Biden dropped/Harris delivered some solid performances, I’m still not sure how much that’s moved the needle I’m still very much in the clutches of the cautious part of ‘cautious optimism’ haha. That looming spectre of a Trump second term hasn’t quite faded out yet for me
I think that's the right approach. We can't ever be complacent when the stakes are this high.
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DNC Day 4
Gabby Giffords managing to give a speech was amazing. Mark Kelly’s speech was fine in substance, but he came across as pretty stiff… definitely reinforces the notion that Walz (and Shapiro and others) are more charismatic and sensible runningmate options.
Republican Adam Kinzinger speaking was another nice defection from the Trump party. The more, the merrier. To his fellow Republicans, Kinzinger said, “The Democrats are as patriotic as us. They love this country just as much as we do.”
Maya Harris’s speech and references to her family were nice to hear. So many relatives and friends and neighbors have legitimately loving memories of growing up with Kamala and Tim, whereas that simply doesn’t exist for Donald and JD.
Roy Cooper’s speech generated a lot more energy from the crowd than I expected, which is always a good thing.
Day 4 probably had the weakest roster of speeches, given how electrifying the previous three days were, but the final speech – from Kamala Harris – was amazing. From the moment she got on stage, her standing ovation was several minutes long, to the point where she joked about needing to actually get down to business and give her speech, just to pause the audience’s overwhelming cheers and support. Harris had a great blend of sentimental anecdotes and her vision for America. She reminisced about her family, explained her motivations for becoming a prosecutor and politician, and contrasted what she and Trump each value. She also made some pledges that have appeal across the aisle, such as border security and a strong military. And finally, Harris repeated her belief that we need a ceasefire in Gaza. She elaborated on this stance, saying that she believes in Israel’s right to exist and be free from persecution and attacks, but also recognizes that the devastation of the Palestinian people needs to end: “The scale of suffering is heart-breaking. President Biden and I are working to end this war, such that Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the suffering in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self-determination.” Harris’s perspective is far more fair and nuanced than Trump’s, and anyone who even dreams of seeing peace between Israel and Palestine should be voting for Harris over Trump.
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I didn't watch the speeches, but I watched Obama and Harris give their speeches. Very powerful and well articulated. I think the deciding factor will be the "uncommitted" group who thinks they can take the DNC/Harris hostage. While not large, they could swing the vote either way in the battleground states. So Harris needs to address them and get them on her side.
But all of this is mute even if she wins and the Dems don't take back the House and Senate. If she wants to get half of what she talked about done, she needs those chambers. I also hope she stacks the courts again and enacts term limits to be retroactive. Probably not happening, but would be great.
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Overall the DNC was pretty great. Just gotta keep the hype rolling through November.
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Northern Ireland26341 Posts
On August 22 2024 05:22 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 04:51 NewSunshine wrote:On August 22 2024 04:37 oBlade wrote:On August 22 2024 04:05 NewSunshine wrote:On August 22 2024 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
There are a lot of rumors circulating that RFK Jr. will drop out, so that Trump has a better chance of beating Harris. RFK Jr. might even formally endorse Trump. Yeah, this isn't surprising at all, considering how excited conservatives were at the prospect of RFK in the 2020 Democratic primary. They wanted a right wing conspiracy theorist on the Democratic ticket, but now that he's independent, he only stands to split votes off of Trump. Putting aside him being a Kennedy, lifelong Democrat and environmental lawyer, were conservatives more interested in having Biden or Kennedy on the Democratic ticket? You can say you're either party with essentially 0 consequences. Kwark is a Republican. This is an empty appeal to things that don't make a candidate appealing. If you're trying to argue that RFK is still somehow a liberal, show me how his policy aligns with Democratic voters. Go ahead. In the meantime, folks can watch this: You didn't answer the question because I think you see the paradox you drew for yourself, if "conservatives" are equally happy with both the deranged leftist Biden or the "right wing" (give me a break) RFK as the Democratic nominee, it means conservatives are happy no matter who the Democratic nominee is so there was never any difference. Unless your point was that true conservatives would vote for an actual right winger like Kennedy, rather than the wolf in sheep's clothing Democrat that is Drumpf, but that would suggest Democrats should vote for Drumpf which I doubt was your intended implication, so I'm at a loss here. Invoking Kwark also, I don't see the point. Are you trying to say people would vote for Kwark if he ran as a Republican rather than RFK if he had been able to run as a Democrat as an example? If "folks" want to learn about candidates, they're better off reading or listening to the actual candidates and their life's work, and not getting fed from a talking head who probably didn't even know who the fuck Kennedy was a year ago. For example, Drumpf just went on Theo Von's podcast (he's on something of a podcast tour inspired by Barron that no other major candidate has done or is capable of, except Kennedy, but people will object to the label "major" in that context - basically only Obama would have been capable of this in recent memory but the space just wasn't near as big even in 2012), said a lot of interesting things 1) Should have a lifetime ban on government/lobbyist pipeline 2) Need to enforce healthcare price transparency (says his administration enacted it, Biden's wouldn't enforce it) 3) Biggest lobbies are lawyers, then teachers - need universal rule of loser paying lawyer fees to reduce 80% of frivolous lawsuits
Didn’t Bernie pull in big numbers of eyes on multiple appearances on Joe Rogan’s podcast in some of his runs? Hell AOC was bringing the numbers on Twitch playing Among Us with a bunch of left YouTubers and streamers. OK we’re getting into ‘what is major?’ territory again, but I don’t think it’s land all sorts of other Dems are incapable of ploughing, if they so chose to go down that route. Although yes, Trump probably does have more pulling power in these kind of domains.
Hey, he makes interesting points. What are the odds on him following through on such observations?
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Holy fuck, this man is unhinging in real time. This man is having an existential crisis over the fact that his opponent is a woman, a black and Indian child of immigrants, and that that only seems to make her stronger, not weaker like he thinks it should. He wants to make sexist and racist appeals all the way to the White House, but his hands are tied, and he is devastated that it isn't working.
She isn't even giving them the gender or race "card" ammo they want. She mentioned her family, her upbringing, her community, in ways that seem to shrug off the "race card" criticism. It was perfect.
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On August 23 2024 22:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I didn't watch the speeches, but I watched Obama and Harris give their speeches. Very powerful and well articulated. I think the deciding factor will be the "uncommitted" group who thinks they can take the DNC/Harris hostage. While not large, they could swing the vote either way in the battleground states. So Harris needs to address them and get them on her side.
But all of this is mute even if she wins and the Dems don't take back the House and Senate. If she wants to get half of what she talked about done, she needs those chambers. I also hope she stacks the courts again and enacts term limits to be retroactive. Probably not happening, but would be great.
Even if they take both they gotta beat that pesky parliamentarian.
Most of what Harris was promising she and the party know she won't do, Democrats just needed her to say it in order to willfully suspend their disbelief.
That's ignoring giving a uniformed cop and a Sec of Def prime slots without finding time for a Palestinian to speak. Democrats are lost. It feels impossible to work with them toward progress when "don't support genocide" is too high a bar for them clear. If they can rationalize their support for genocide and arming neonazis, what can't they rationalize to themselves? It's only a matter of time until those sorts of rationalizations come home to roost.
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People might get pissed at me for saying this but I would not give the protestors or a rep from the protestors any platform to speak at the DNC. That is a huge wildcard that you dont need. You would need someone heavily vetted and to know they have something to lose and not go way off script.
Why didnt they speak at the RNC?
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United States43667 Posts
Why would a Palestinian be speaking at the DNC?
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On August 23 2024 23:07 WombaT wrote:
Didn’t Bernie pull in big numbers of eyes on multiple appearances on Joe Rogan’s podcast in some of his runs? Hell AOC was bringing the numbers on Twitch playing Among Us with a bunch of left YouTubers and streamers. OK we’re getting into ‘what is major?’ territory again, but I don’t think it’s land all sorts of other Dems are incapable of ploughing, if they so chose to go down that route. Although yes, Trump probably does have more pulling power in these kind of domains.
Hey, he makes interesting points. What are the odds on him following through on such observations?
The regulations on price transparency he already followed through with. The others would probably need to get passed as laws, as not everything is something a single person can just do even if they're president, so let's nobody make the mistake of thinking that's how the world works.
For podcast viability I meant of the 4 major candidates in this cycle which is the relevant one. There's not a total lack of people among Democrats who can actually communicate and have a human conversation for 1-2 hours. Bernie is one as we've seen yes. AOC playing a video game for zoomers, I don't know. But there are plenty. You almost have to be better at communication in order to sell people on ideas that are self-contradictory or just utterly regressive or bald faced lies. This is what we're seeing in real time as Harris attempts to run as an opposition candidate to herself, who pledges she will do the same things Drumpf promises to do but only after he has promised to do them, even though she has done the exact opposite.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Bill Clinton + Nancy Pelosi was a solid pairing of the old guard, even though they weren’t particularly energizing, especially back-to-back. Their words for Biden and Harris and Walz were very kind
It's nice to know despite ousting him that there's no hard feelings between them.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Clinton had a few good jabs at Trump too, like how Trump actually thought Hannibal Lecter was a good guy and… literally a *real* person. Yikes.
This is fine people hoax level Tiktok gossip. But it wouldn't be the DNC without a lie or two from good old Hillary.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Kamala Harris, to Brett Kavanaugh: “Can you think of any laws that give government the power to make decisions about the *male* body?” BK: “I can’t think of any.”
Kamala not understanding that men can get pregnant and Kavanaugh not knowing about the Selective Service Act isn't a great look on either of them.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Oprah Winfrey’s existence all brought some serious back-to-back-to-back energy to the crowd. Oprah Winfrey, in particular, was electrifying.
Tear-jerking, almost reminds me of her existence years ago when she was writing letters to Drumpf saying they should run together.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“I’m Pete Buttigieg and you might recognize me from Fox News” lol. He absolutely tore Trump and Vance to shreds in his speech, for the assholes that they are. “At least Pence was… polite” lmao. He also spoke very eloquently on inclusion and gay rights.
Reminds me of all the gay weddings Pence held at Mar-a-Lago. Oh fuck, that was actually Drumpf and all we heard for 4 years is Pence wanted to convert gays - "polite." In 4 years when Desantis runs we will be hearing from the same propaganda machines about how moderate Drumpf was compared to him. Infinitely renewable outrage cycle of fake fascism - defeat the evil Romney and McCain and they're consigned to the past as being moderate losers. But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The montages and speeches by Tim Walz’s students and football team players and fellow military veterans and neighbors and wife were touching. That just doesn’t exist on the Republican side.
Did they have a speech from his chaplain too? I must have missed it.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“Never underestimate a public school teacher.” Fuck yeah.
He led Minnesota to dropping below the national average in education, below national average in elementary school reading assessments. He closed schools and paintballed moms on their porches.
On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“While other states were banning books from their schools, we were banishing hunger from ours.” Double fuck yeah. When Walz talked about his family and fertility treatments, the camera cut to his kids… his daughter is trying not to cry, and his son is standing and clapping and crying and you can see him saying “That’s my dad”. Literally the proudest kid in the entire world. That was raw, incredibly emotional. There’s such a stark contrast between Walz and Vance, almost as big as the contrast between Harris and Trump.
Think we've amply proven Vance a fan of fertility already. Drumpf, the proof is in the pudding.
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On August 24 2024 02:32 KwarK wrote:
Why would a Palestinian be speaking at the DNC?
To give the DNC's empty rhetoric on not supporting Israel's genocide against Palestinians the slightest aura of credibility to people with a conscience.
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On August 24 2024 02:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
arming neonazis
Not this bullshit again. Take any policy you support that applies to a large group of people, let's say cancelling all student debt. Surely some of the people that have student debt have the odd SS tattoo. Therefore cancelling student debt = financially supporting neonazis. Reducing helping Ukraine survive to "arming neonazis" is no less disingenuous.
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Northern Ireland26341 Posts
On August 24 2024 02:41 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 23:07 WombaT wrote:
Didn’t Bernie pull in big numbers of eyes on multiple appearances on Joe Rogan’s podcast in some of his runs? Hell AOC was bringing the numbers on Twitch playing Among Us with a bunch of left YouTubers and streamers. OK we’re getting into ‘what is major?’ territory again, but I don’t think it’s land all sorts of other Dems are incapable of ploughing, if they so chose to go down that route. Although yes, Trump probably does have more pulling power in these kind of domains.
Hey, he makes interesting points. What are the odds on him following through on such observations? The regulations on price transparency he already followed through with. The others would probably need to get passed as laws, as not everything is something a single person can just do even if they're president, so let's nobody make the mistake of thinking that's how the world works. For podcast viability I meant of the 4 major candidates in this cycle which is the relevant one. There's not a total lack of people among Democrats who can actually communicate and have a human conversation for 1-2 hours. Bernie is one as we've seen yes. AOC playing a video game for zoomers, I don't know. But there are plenty. You almost have to be better at communication in order to sell people on ideas that are self-contradictory or just utterly regressive or bald faced lies. This is what we're seeing in real time as Harris attempts to run as an opposition candidate to herself, who pledges she will do the same things Drumpf promises to do but only after he has promised to do them, even though she has done the exact opposite. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Bill Clinton + Nancy Pelosi was a solid pairing of the old guard, even though they weren’t particularly energizing, especially back-to-back. Their words for Biden and Harris and Walz were very kind It's nice to know despite ousting him that there's no hard feelings between them. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Clinton had a few good jabs at Trump too, like how Trump actually thought Hannibal Lecter was a good guy and… literally a *real* person. Yikes. This is fine people hoax level Tiktok gossip. But it wouldn't be the DNC without a lie or two from good old Hillary. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Kamala Harris, to Brett Kavanaugh: “Can you think of any laws that give government the power to make decisions about the *male* body?” BK: “I can’t think of any.” Kamala not understanding that men can get pregnant and Kavanaugh not knowing about the Selective Service Act isn't a great look on either of them. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Oprah Winfrey’s existence all brought some serious back-to-back-to-back energy to the crowd. Oprah Winfrey, in particular, was electrifying. Tear-jerking, almost reminds me of her existence years ago when she was writing letters to Drumpf saying they should run together. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“I’m Pete Buttigieg and you might recognize me from Fox News” lol. He absolutely tore Trump and Vance to shreds in his speech, for the assholes that they are. “At least Pence was… polite” lmao. He also spoke very eloquently on inclusion and gay rights. Reminds me of all the gay weddings Pence held at Mar-a-Lago. Oh fuck, that was actually Drumpf and all we heard for 4 years is Pence wanted to convert gays - "polite." In 4 years when Desantis runs we will be hearing from the same propaganda machines about how moderate Drumpf was compared to him. Infinitely renewable outrage cycle of fake fascism - defeat the evil Romney and McCain and they're consigned to the past as being moderate losers. But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The montages and speeches by Tim Walz’s students and football team players and fellow military veterans and neighbors and wife were touching. That just doesn’t exist on the Republican side. Did they have a speech from his chaplain too? I must have missed it. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“Never underestimate a public school teacher.” Fuck yeah. He led Minnesota to dropping below the national average in education, below national average in elementary school reading assessments. He closed schools and paintballed moms on their porches. Show nested quote +On August 22 2024 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
“While other states were banning books from their schools, we were banishing hunger from ours.” Double fuck yeah. When Walz talked about his family and fertility treatments, the camera cut to his kids… his daughter is trying not to cry, and his son is standing and clapping and crying and you can see him saying “That’s my dad”. Literally the proudest kid in the entire world. That was raw, incredibly emotional. There’s such a stark contrast between Walz and Vance, almost as big as the contrast between Harris and Trump.
Think we've amply proven Vance a fan of fertility already. Drumpf, the proof is in the pudding.
I don’t question it’s a difficult task and not one that can simply be done unilaterally, I very much question that there’s any earnest intent there on reforming the governance/lobbyist pipeline from Donald Trump
He’s had a term already, where was that there? Indeed he’s so committed to maintaining the culture of cronyism and backscratching he stuck family members in influential positions.
He’s just throwing the odd bone to appeal to unconvinced moderates, I highly doubt he’s got any real commitment here
Speaking of how the world works, if a perennially proven bullshitter with a track record of self-aggrandisement tries to pivot to present themselves as some anti-corruption reformer, until they actually make a concerted effort to do that, believing them is a fool’s errand
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United States43667 Posts
On August 24 2024 02:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 02:32 KwarK wrote:
Why would a Palestinian be speaking at the DNC? To give the DNC's empty rhetoric on not supporting Israel's genocide against Palestinians the slightest aura of credibility to people with a conscience.
Palestinians aren’t especially relevant to national politics or the DNC and in foreign politics they’re an extremely anti American group. It’d be profoundly weird if they put one on stage. They’d either find the least representative Palestinian in the world to stand up and endorse the bombing of Palestine which would make you extremely unhappy or they’d find a “death to America” guy which would make everyone but you unhappy. And since you and people like you literally don’t vote there’s really no upside to trying to please you. You’re irrelevant.
But why Palestinian? Why not a Russian who could complain about American bombs getting in the way of their extermination of Ukraine? Why not an Iranian or a Yemeni? Why are you fetishizing their struggle in such a weird way? And why do you have this need for the DNC to be involved in your kink despite their disinterest in it and your proclaimed disinterest in them?
Why can’t you just have a revolution in a room by yourself and let the DNC do its thing?
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On August 24 2024 02:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 02:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 24 2024 02:32 KwarK wrote:
Why would a Palestinian be speaking at the DNC? To give the DNC's empty rhetoric on not supporting Israel's genocide against Palestinians the slightest aura of credibility to people with a conscience. Palestinians aren’t especially relevant to national politics or the DNC...
Not supporting genocide used to be, but Democrats (and their allies) are doing their best to normalize supporting genocide. That's bad for everyone.
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People dont agree that its a genocide. This goes in circles every time  . Time truly is a flat disc.
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On August 24 2024 02:41 oBlade wrote:
But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler.
Just Trump. I don't know of anyone who called McCain or Romney "Hitler", but even JD Vance thought Trump was Hitler. McCain and Romney weren't fascists; Trump is.
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On August 24 2024 03:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 02:41 oBlade wrote:
But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler. Just Trump. I don't know of anyone who called McCain or Romney "Hitler", but even JD Vance thought Trump was Hitler. McCain and Romney weren't fascists; Trump is.
Those Republicans are gone. I don't think you can or will assume anyone remaining in Trump's Republican party doesn't carry the same fascist threats with them going forward, regardless of their rhetoric.
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On August 24 2024 03:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 02:41 oBlade wrote:
But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler. Just Trump. I don't know of anyone who called McCain or Romney "Hitler", but even JD Vance thought Trump was Hitler. McCain and Romney weren't fascists; Trump is.
I can't remember "Hitler" being thrown at McCain and Romney, but they were certainly attacked as if they were going to be the worst presidents ever... somehow worse than GW Bush. Since Trump, attacks both ways have ramped up significantly and have gotten a lot more personal. However, McCain and Romney both had to suffer through a lot of bullshit attacks on their character on the way to losing the presidency. The democrats were certainly not above the fray.
Even going back to the 2000s primary, McCain had to suffer a lot of total bullshit from the Bush camp (Republican friendly fire). But that stuff was more along of the lines of political operatives calling people and asking "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain if you knew that he fathered an illegitimate black child?" They just wanted to get that idea in voters heads without ever actually saying that he did it.
It's always been dirty and no side is above it.
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On August 24 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 03:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 24 2024 02:41 oBlade wrote:
But the next Republican is always the one that's actually Hitler. Just Trump. I don't know of anyone who called McCain or Romney "Hitler", but even JD Vance thought Trump was Hitler. McCain and Romney weren't fascists; Trump is. Those Republicans are gone. I don't think you can or will assume anyone remaining in Trump's Republican party doesn't carry the same fascist threats with them going forward, regardless of their rhetoric.
oBlade wrote "Infinitely renewable outrage cycle of fake fascism - defeat the evil Romney and McCain and they're consigned to the past as being moderate losers." In other words, he's (incorrectly) asserting that Democrats labeled McCain as Hitler until McCain became irrelevant, and then (incorrectly) asserting that Democrats labeled Romney as Hitler too, until Romney became irrelevant, and so apparently Democrats continue to label everyone as Hitler just because they're Republican. But that's false, and oBlade is purposely trying to handwave the accurate labeling of Trump as fascist, by pretending like we call everyone fascist. Neither McCain nor Romney was labeled as fascist, because they weren't fascist, but Trump is correctly being labeled as fascist.
As for whoever comes next, we'll have to evaluate that candidate on their merits. If the next Republican candidate for president (after Trump) is a crazy fascist lunatic, then he'll likely have earned the same label as Trump.
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EPT
