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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On August 05 2024 22:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 22:18 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 22:06 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:On August 05 2024 20:38 KT_Elwood wrote:
I don't get why WWII shouldn't be the example. Nazi brass knew the continuation of the war was the only way to literally prolong their existence. They needed others.. even kids.. to take up arms to gain another week or month.
This is exactly how hamas is operating. Commit acts of terrorism - hide behind civilians .. rinse and repeat.
Gaza is a hopeless shithole because it's only purpose is to stay an open wound to israel.. it's people are replaceable livestock to the leaders who live in security.
Edit:
So yes.. I don't want palestinians to die.. I want Hamas to die. I want the islamic ideology to die, preferebly to be overthrown from withing...a islamic "Aufklärung".
97% of the war has been fought exclusively on Gaza's soil. Resulting in nearly 40 000 dead Palestinians, the clear majority being civilians. The majority of Gaza destroyed. More land being grabbed in the West bank. Strict rejection of a state for Palestinians. This is a genocide. Whether or not all Palestinians will be genocided is irrelevant. The intent, the method and the outcome, it's all very clear to us. It's not genocide. Except people who devote their lives to study and prevention of genocides think it is, or at least is well on the way to becoming such. https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gazahttps://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/12/18/it-is-clear-that-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza-un-panel-concludes/ The government of Palestine declared war on its neighbour, invaded them, went on a killing spree, but is now subsequently losing the war they started. Their people are dying in the war they started. That does not make it a genocide. War is a perfectly good word to describe how horrifying and awful this situation is. We don't need to start degrading language to get people to notice.
If the war started on Oct 7, 2023, what were the IDF airstrikes and helicopter raids in January about? If Hamas is the sovereign government of Palestine, why has Israel controlled their borders including sea and airspace for decades? If it is a war against Hamas in Gaza, why are there Israeli settlers, military checkpoints, and surveillance systems in West Bank? Why has IDF been detaining hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians every year, in the Palestinian territories -- not Israel? Why do Israeli authorities make decisions about building permits and demolishment of structures in Gaza & West bank?
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United States43649 Posts
On August 05 2024 22:46 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 22:37 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 22:18 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 22:06 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:On August 05 2024 20:38 KT_Elwood wrote:
I don't get why WWII shouldn't be the example. Nazi brass knew the continuation of the war was the only way to literally prolong their existence. They needed others.. even kids.. to take up arms to gain another week or month.
This is exactly how hamas is operating. Commit acts of terrorism - hide behind civilians .. rinse and repeat.
Gaza is a hopeless shithole because it's only purpose is to stay an open wound to israel.. it's people are replaceable livestock to the leaders who live in security.
Edit:
So yes.. I don't want palestinians to die.. I want Hamas to die. I want the islamic ideology to die, preferebly to be overthrown from withing...a islamic "Aufklärung".
97% of the war has been fought exclusively on Gaza's soil. Resulting in nearly 40 000 dead Palestinians, the clear majority being civilians. The majority of Gaza destroyed. More land being grabbed in the West bank. Strict rejection of a state for Palestinians. This is a genocide. Whether or not all Palestinians will be genocided is irrelevant. The intent, the method and the outcome, it's all very clear to us. It's not genocide. Except people who devote their lives to study and prevention of genocides think it is, or at least is well on the way to becoming such. https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gazahttps://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/12/18/it-is-clear-that-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza-un-panel-concludes/ The government of Palestine declared war on its neighbour, invaded them, went on a killing spree, but is now subsequently losing the war they started. Their people are dying in the war they started. That does not make it a genocide. War is a perfectly good word to describe how horrifying and awful this situation is. We don't need to start degrading language to get people to notice. If the war started on Oct 7, 2023, what were the IDF airstrikes and helicopter raids in January about? If Hamas is the sovereign government of Palestine, why has Israel controlled their borders including sea and airspace for decades? If it is a war against Hamas in Gaza, why are there Israeli settlers, military checkpoints, and surveillance systems in West Bank? Why has IDF been detaining hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians every year, in the Palestinian territories -- not Israel? Why do Israeli authorities make decisions about building permits and demolishment of structures in Gaza & West bank?
Yes, the war predates this flare up. We all know that.
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On August 05 2024 22:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 22:46 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 22:37 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 22:18 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 22:06 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:On August 05 2024 20:38 KT_Elwood wrote:
I don't get why WWII shouldn't be the example. Nazi brass knew the continuation of the war was the only way to literally prolong their existence. They needed others.. even kids.. to take up arms to gain another week or month.
This is exactly how hamas is operating. Commit acts of terrorism - hide behind civilians .. rinse and repeat.
Gaza is a hopeless shithole because it's only purpose is to stay an open wound to israel.. it's people are replaceable livestock to the leaders who live in security.
Edit:
So yes.. I don't want palestinians to die.. I want Hamas to die. I want the islamic ideology to die, preferebly to be overthrown from withing...a islamic "Aufklärung".
97% of the war has been fought exclusively on Gaza's soil. Resulting in nearly 40 000 dead Palestinians, the clear majority being civilians. The majority of Gaza destroyed. More land being grabbed in the West bank. Strict rejection of a state for Palestinians. This is a genocide. Whether or not all Palestinians will be genocided is irrelevant. The intent, the method and the outcome, it's all very clear to us. It's not genocide. Except people who devote their lives to study and prevention of genocides think it is, or at least is well on the way to becoming such. https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gazahttps://peoplesdispatch.org/2023/12/18/it-is-clear-that-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza-un-panel-concludes/ The government of Palestine declared war on its neighbour, invaded them, went on a killing spree, but is now subsequently losing the war they started. Their people are dying in the war they started. That does not make it a genocide. War is a perfectly good word to describe how horrifying and awful this situation is. We don't need to start degrading language to get people to notice. If the war started on Oct 7, 2023, what were the IDF airstrikes and helicopter raids in January about? If Hamas is the sovereign government of Palestine, why has Israel controlled their borders including sea and airspace for decades? If it is a war against Hamas in Gaza, why are there Israeli settlers, military checkpoints, and surveillance systems in West Bank? Why has IDF been detaining hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians every year, in the Palestinian territories -- not Israel? Why do Israeli authorities make decisions about building permits and demolishment of structures in Gaza & West bank? Yes, the war predates this flare up. We all know that.
The guy I replied to doesn't seem to know that, since he claimed that the war was started by Hamas going on a killing spree.
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On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands.
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On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands.
But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..!
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United States43649 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands.
There is a good alternative to throwing Trump voters in jail. There is no good alternative to war with Palestine as the Palestinian government refuses to lay down arms. For a long time Israel opted to ignore acts of war like rocket attacks because they preferred not to kill Palestinians. Unfortunately Hamas decided to force their hand with a mass rape and child murder atrocity. At that point there were no good options left.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..!
But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise.
It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest.
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It would be helpful instead of drop links to walls of text, just give the arguments in your own words.
To me the "genocide" label is mostly PR. You can't score higher in victimhood summer games then claim to be on the bad end of a genocide.
And also I can't stand the damn hypocracy. People all over the world show flags, wail and protest - but they don't want the war of hamas to stop, they want IDF to stop retaliating.
And tha'ts about the same mentality as people saying you should just leave ukraine to putin, so war will be over quicker.
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On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest.
When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? There hasn't been a single year in at least 3 decades without 4-5 digit number of Palestinians killed or maimed by IDF, or without expansion of settlements in the West Bank, etc.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'?
Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back.
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On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back.
Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of fighting? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine.
You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers.
Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation.
You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right.
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On August 06 2024 00:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine. You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers. Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation. You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right.
I guess Western analysts are deranged and analysis pieces on the subject are absurd, then, since the general consensus on that strike was that it was a show of force meant to send a message rather than cause any significant damage to targets on the ground.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/20/world/israel-iran-gaza-war-news#iran-israel-strike-tensions
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/04/irans-attack-israel-was-not-failure-many-claim-it-has-ended-israels-isolation
So good to have your rationality here weighing in with logic and reason.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 06 2024 00:34 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:22 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine. You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers. Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation. You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right. I guess Western analysts are deranged and analysis pieces on the subject are absurd, then, since the general consensus on that strike was that it was a show of force meant to send a message rather than cause any significant damage to targets on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/20/world/israel-iran-gaza-war-news#iran-israel-strike-tensionshttps://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/04/irans-attack-israel-was-not-failure-many-claim-it-has-ended-israels-isolationSo good to have your rationality here weighing in with logic and reason.
Do you realize you’re now arguing that missiles aren’t dangerous?
What those analysts were saying was that Iran believed that they would likely be within the capabilities of Israeli air defence. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t an attack. It’s not like the missiles were loaded with confetti. If I set fire to your house while your family were sleeping and you put it out with a fire extinguisher I can’t subsequently excuse my actions by saying that I was pretty sure you’d have an extinguisher so it wasn’t really an attack.
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Northern Ireland26326 Posts
On August 06 2024 00:34 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:22 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine. You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers. Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation. You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right. I guess Western analysts are deranged and analysis pieces on the subject are absurd, then, since the general consensus on that strike was that it was a show of force meant to send a message rather than cause any significant damage to targets on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/20/world/israel-iran-gaza-war-news#iran-israel-strike-tensionshttps://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/04/irans-attack-israel-was-not-failure-many-claim-it-has-ended-israels-isolationSo good to have your rationality here weighing in with logic and reason.
I mean it wouldn’t be advisable but I couldn’t just walk up and try to punch Mike Tyson with the rationale ‘well it’s not a threat because he’s used to dodging punches’
That said I don’t think it’s a great look if you can be restrained and de-escalate with a power vaguely in your ballpark and instead beat up the defenceless kid in the playground every day.
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Well the argument here is that the attack was telegraphed and everyone was aware that is coming. Iran needed a show of force for a domestic audience after the strike on the consulate and at the same time, they didn't want to cause too much damage because that would force Israel to retaliate stronger, and we would have war.
So they come up with:
"We hate You. We are going to attack You. You don't know when and how we are going to hit You. It 100% won't be on Friday next week on 6pm with missiles and drones".
It not about that missiles are not dangerous. It's about the fact that Iran gave warning about how and when it's going to retaliate with the goal that everyone will be prepared for this and damage will be minimal. And guess what, it worked. Damage was minimal, noone died (I think) 4 or 5 countries participated in Israels defense. The defense was very costly (several billion dollars I think) but we ended up without full scale Iran-Isreal war, which everyone (with exception of Bibi maybe) wanted to avoid.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 06 2024 00:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:34 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:22 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2024 19:10 KT_Elwood wrote:
The only analogy I can find is the allied bombardment of german cities in WW2.
Only Nazis accuse the allies of "Genocide" .. and so is my view on Hamas. Hamas needs to be purged from gaza, as Nazis needed to be purged from germany.
Jerusalem and other cities can be completely flattened I don't give a crap. The best ways to use all the "holy" places there would be to store radioactive waste.
Both to deter people from fighting over it, and as an analogy to what "Religion" can be at it's worst... a load of crap that's dangerous forever.
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine. You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers. Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation. You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right. I guess Western analysts are deranged and analysis pieces on the subject are absurd, then, since the general consensus on that strike was that it was a show of force meant to send a message rather than cause any significant damage to targets on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/20/world/israel-iran-gaza-war-news#iran-israel-strike-tensionshttps://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/04/irans-attack-israel-was-not-failure-many-claim-it-has-ended-israels-isolationSo good to have your rationality here weighing in with logic and reason. I mean it wouldn’t be advisable but I couldn’t just walk up and try to punch Mike Tyson with the rationale ‘well it’s not a threat because he’s used to dodging punches’ That said I don’t think it’s a great look if you can be restrained and de-escalate with a power vaguely in your ballpark and instead beat up the defenceless kid in the playground every day.
Iran is not in Israel’s ballpark. Israel could, at will, break the nuclear taboo. One could reasonably argue that they should do it for the purpose of hitting Iran’s nuclear program bunkers with tactical nukes.
Israel shows restraint with both for the same reason, the victory isn’t worth the humanitarian crisis. It has hopes of Iran aging out of this edgy antisemitic phase and redeeming itself as a member of the international community. And while there is little hope for Palestine due to structural issues there it still prefers not to destroy it.
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United States43649 Posts
On August 06 2024 01:02 Silvanel wrote:
Well the argument here is that the attack was telegraphed and everyone was aware that is coming. Iran needed a show of force for a domestic audience after the strike on the consulate and at the same time, they didn't want to cause too much damage because that would force Israel to retaliate stronger, and we would have war.
So they come up with:
"We hate You. We are going to attack You. You don't know when and how we are going to hit You. It 100% won't be on Friday next week on 6pm with missiles and drones".
It not about that missiles are not dangerous. It's about the fact that Iran gave warning about how and when it's going to retaliate with the goal that everyone will be prepared for this and damage will be minimal. And guess what, it worked. Damage was minimal, noone died (I think) 4 or 5 countries participated in Israels defense. The defense was very costly (several billion dollars I think) but we ended up without full scale Iran-Isreal war, which everyone (with exception of Bibi maybe) wanted to aviod.
If you don’t really want to do damage then you load the missiles with confetti. If you load them with warheads you don’t get to make that excuse.
And presumably it would have been fine if Israel had let Iran know that it would be sending back a missile volley of its own? But it chose not to. It chose to turn the other cheek.
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The whole discussion is basically moot because I'm talking about Democrats that believe it is genocide and voting for the people supporting it. That Kwark argues it isn't genocide is gross, but mostly irrelevant.
On August 05 2024 03:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2024 02:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 05 2024 02:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 05 2024 02:18 Slydie wrote:On August 05 2024 01:19 Gorsameth wrote:
Trump has nothing to gain by having another debate, and I question if he has anything to lose either. With how little the polls moved after the first debate, nor the assassination attempt you can question if there are any actual swing voters left.
This election will be decided by turnout and I doubt Republicans will stay home because Trump is a coward, all they will hear in the Fox bubble is how Harris is refusing to debate Trump on Fox. Most politicians would love a debate if they have any faith in what they stand for. Trump is no politician, but still! Not showing up is a sign of weakness, and it is used against him a lot already. I don't think it is a given that he has more to lose than to gain from a debate, but after seeing Biden pull out after seeming old, I can understand it. Worth remembering the plan for Democrats was not to have debates (like they didn't for their pseudo-primary) and Biden only called for Trump to have them out of desperation. It makes sense for Democrats to rip on Trump if he doesn't debate, it's just insincere as shit and anyone even considering voting for Trump recognizes that. The only way Trump takes a hit for skipping debating Harris, is if she agrees to do it on Fox (maybe paired with a commitment for an MSNBC debate or something), and he bails out of the Fox debate he's proposing. There's nothing sincere about this election, and anything that says otherwise is just spin. This is a cut throat mud throwing dirty political as it gets presidential election. There's no point trying to argue about semantics and moral high ground anymore. Just do what it takes to win, and get it over with already. Yeah, there's just also not a clear path out of this race to the bottom either. Despite this being a turnout election Harris is already running to the right of herself in 2020, while poised to pick a pro-police, anti-corporate tax, Zionist for VP. People fixate on Trump, but the parties are positioned so that there is no Republican-Democrat contest where the same "I'd vote for anything with a D next to its name over the Republican" doesn't apply or won't apply going forward. Democrats are already overlooking what they themselves identify as genocide, so it seems there is nothing preventing the US from descending to rock bottom.
Most Democrats believe Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza
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On August 06 2024 01:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2024 00:49 WombaT wrote:On August 06 2024 00:34 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:22 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:14 Salazarz wrote:On August 06 2024 00:11 KwarK wrote:On August 06 2024 00:06 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:30 KwarK wrote:On August 05 2024 23:15 Salazarz wrote:On August 05 2024 23:10 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
Hamas was not an especially popular political faction within Palestine, so saying that everyone in Palestine is synonymous with Hamas is problematic on several levels. There's also other issues, would I have Trump voters thrown in jail just because the person they vote for is a known criminal? It's very conveniently dehumanizing to say every single political operative and civilian alike all deserve to be destroyed because some of them did something awful. Many Palestinians are not on board with what Hamas did in the first place, but it doesn't matter because now they're dying in the thousands. But if Israel just kills them a little harder, that'll definitely show them how misguided Hamas' hate of Jews is and turn things around..! But if Israel turns the other cheek a little harder that’ll definitely not lead to escalation from Hamas again this time, just because it did all the other times. If there’s one thing that genocidal death cults are good at it’s civility and compromise. It’s almost like there aren’t any good options here and that pointing out the negatives of one option without discussing the broader context is intellectually dishonest. When has Israel ever 'turned the other cheek'? Iran launched a missile salvo at them last month. Israel declined to launch one back. Iran retaliated with a pointless fireworks show to Israel's deadly hit on a consulate, and Israel not escalating further on Iran is your best example of 'turning the other cheek' in their conflict with Hamas after decades of conflict? Sure, that definitely proves that not slaughtering Palestinians left and right would never serve to reduce radicalism or help pave the way to peace in Palestine. You asked for an example, I gave one. Characterizing 120 ballistic missiles, 30 cruise missiles, and 170 Shaheds as a fireworks show is absurd to the point of deranged. If someone fired those at your city you’d not call it a fireworks show. It failed to do more damage because of the exertions of Israel and her allies, not out of any benevolent intent on behalf of the attackers. Israel could have sent its own salvo back. It would have been entirely within its rights to do so. However after the success of the air defence mission it chose to turn the other cheek in the name of deescalation. You’re clearly not capable of being rational on this subject. I offer a simple example in response to your demand for one and you start gibbering about slaughtering Palestinians left and right. I guess Western analysts are deranged and analysis pieces on the subject are absurd, then, since the general consensus on that strike was that it was a show of force meant to send a message rather than cause any significant damage to targets on the ground. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/20/world/israel-iran-gaza-war-news#iran-israel-strike-tensionshttps://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/04/irans-attack-israel-was-not-failure-many-claim-it-has-ended-israels-isolationSo good to have your rationality here weighing in with logic and reason. I mean it wouldn’t be advisable but I couldn’t just walk up and try to punch Mike Tyson with the rationale ‘well it’s not a threat because he’s used to dodging punches’ That said I don’t think it’s a great look if you can be restrained and de-escalate with a power vaguely in your ballpark and instead beat up the defenceless kid in the playground every day. Iran is not in Israel’s ballpark. Israel could, at will, break the nuclear taboo. One could reasonably argue that they should do it for the purpose of hitting Iran’s nuclear program bunkers with tactical nukes.
If Israel nukes Iran they will respond with cruise/ballistic missiles loaded with nuclear waste and enriched uranium. Not to mention that radioactive dust from Israels strike might very well end up in bordering countries. One of which has more nukes than Isreal. Now they might dont like Iran very much, but they sure as hell won't be thrilled by nuclear fallout.
That really isn't a can of worms ANYONE wants to open.
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EPT
