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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 05:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I used to be in right-wing circles. Let me assure you all in this thread that, yes, black people are definitely a target of American fascists. They hate them and ideally they want to round them up and deport them all. Or at the very least segregate them.
And that's just the fascists. Even less extreme racists are very anti-black, and they will support plenty of anti-black policies. The only difference between these two groups is that the fascists are full-blown extremists, while the more common racists have a "look away" type of approach where they let loose the actual fascists and trod along with them, even if they don't like their methods.
The fascists will deport, possibly even kill black people. Fascists are extremely dangerous, and to say black people aren't on their list is absolutely opposite to reality.
While I don't believe American fascism stands a realistic chance, IF it were to happen, black people would absolutely get rounded up, deported, some even murdered. If you don't believe me, you've never spoken to a real fascist before. That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda. It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow.
I can promise Kwark does not give a fuck about you leaving the site, and may I suggest this is taken to website feedback or something? I think some of your grievances with Kwark are valid.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 05:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I used to be in right-wing circles. Let me assure you all in this thread that, yes, black people are definitely a target of American fascists. They hate them and ideally they want to round them up and deport them all. Or at the very least segregate them.
And that's just the fascists. Even less extreme racists are very anti-black, and they will support plenty of anti-black policies. The only difference between these two groups is that the fascists are full-blown extremists, while the more common racists have a "look away" type of approach where they let loose the actual fascists and trod along with them, even if they don't like their methods.
The fascists will deport, possibly even kill black people. Fascists are extremely dangerous, and to say black people aren't on their list is absolutely opposite to reality.
While I don't believe American fascism stands a realistic chance, IF it were to happen, black people would absolutely get rounded up, deported, some even murdered. If you don't believe me, you've never spoken to a real fascist before. That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda. It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow.
Few things here.
Regarding your failure to read and understand the discussion you inserted yourself into before joining it, that’s on you. Nobody asked you for your input, the courteous thing to do would have been to read the exchange before joining it so that your post related to it.
Regarding grudges, I have more “grudges” against tl posters than I can reasonably keep track of because I make no effort to record them. The insane PBU who keeps spamming this thread also insists I have a grudge against him despite me having no clue who he is. The only one that comes to mind right now though is when BlackJack blamed his car theft on liberals defunding the police and then stuck by the claim of defunding after it turned out that the council considered reducing funding before increasing it. I hold a grudge against BlackJack for the day he spent on that shit. But I don’t call him a Nazi (I may at some point have called him a Nazi, I’ve been on TL many years) because I don’t think he is one. I’m not in the habit of calling random people Nazis.
I don’t have a grudge against you. I don’t make any effort to engage you in discussion or moderate you or interact with you at all. What I do have with you is an increasing set of concerning datapoints. You seem to follow me around from topic to topic responding to my posts by bringing up concerning things and when I charitably ignore your posts you keep going.
I don’t know why you keep threatening to stop posting here. I don’t know why you think I’d care whether you stop or keep going. I don’t know why you keep making that threat and not following through with it. But I also don’t especially care. It’s your life and I doubt the TL forums are much like the online spaces you apparently prefer.
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On July 10 2024 09:11 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 05:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I used to be in right-wing circles. Let me assure you all in this thread that, yes, black people are definitely a target of American fascists. They hate them and ideally they want to round them up and deport them all. Or at the very least segregate them.
And that's just the fascists. Even less extreme racists are very anti-black, and they will support plenty of anti-black policies. The only difference between these two groups is that the fascists are full-blown extremists, while the more common racists have a "look away" type of approach where they let loose the actual fascists and trod along with them, even if they don't like their methods.
The fascists will deport, possibly even kill black people. Fascists are extremely dangerous, and to say black people aren't on their list is absolutely opposite to reality.
While I don't believe American fascism stands a realistic chance, IF it were to happen, black people would absolutely get rounded up, deported, some even murdered. If you don't believe me, you've never spoken to a real fascist before. That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda. It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow. I can promise Kwark does not give a fuck about you leaving the site, and may I suggest this is taken to website feedback or something? I think some of your grievances with Kwark are valid.
I want the other mods to talk sense into KwarK, because he's not exclusively targeting me with his outrageously abusive behavior. He's doing the exact same thing to GH as we speak.
I know KwarK doesn't care, that's not the reason why I promise to leave. The reason is that I don't want to be on a website that tolerates this kind of targeted abusive behavior by a mod. He openly says how much he dislikes GH. That alone should be a red flag to everyone. He berates people constantly. He thinks he's literally perfect and can never say anything wrong (he hasn't admitted to any fault in YEARS).
If nothing is being done about this, then KwarK's attitude reflects the general attitude of the forum. And that means I'm leaving if nothing changes.
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On July 10 2024 09:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 05:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I used to be in right-wing circles. Let me assure you all in this thread that, yes, black people are definitely a target of American fascists. They hate them and ideally they want to round them up and deport them all. Or at the very least segregate them.
And that's just the fascists. Even less extreme racists are very anti-black, and they will support plenty of anti-black policies. The only difference between these two groups is that the fascists are full-blown extremists, while the more common racists have a "look away" type of approach where they let loose the actual fascists and trod along with them, even if they don't like their methods.
The fascists will deport, possibly even kill black people. Fascists are extremely dangerous, and to say black people aren't on their list is absolutely opposite to reality.
While I don't believe American fascism stands a realistic chance, IF it were to happen, black people would absolutely get rounded up, deported, some even murdered. If you don't believe me, you've never spoken to a real fascist before. That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda. It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow. Few things here. Regarding your failure to read and understand the discussion you inserted yourself into before joining it, that’s on you. Nobody asked you for your input, the courteous thing to do would have been to read the exchange before joining it so that your post related to it. Regarding grudges, I have more “grudges” against tl posters than I can reasonably keep track of because I make no effort to record them. The insane PBU who keeps spamming this thread also insists I have a grudge against him despite me having no clue who he is. The only one that comes to mind right now though is when BlackJack blamed his car theft on liberals defunding the police and then stuck by the claim of defunding after it turned out that the council considered reducing funding before increasing it. I hold a grudge against BlackJack for the day he spent on that shit. But I don’t call him a Nazi (I may at some point have called him a Nazi, I’ve been on TL many years) because I don’t think he is one. I’m not in the habit of calling random people Nazis. I don’t have a grudge against you. I don’t make any effort to engage you in discussion or moderate you or interact with you at all. What I do have with you is an increasing set of concerning datapoints. You seem to follow me around from topic to topic responding to my posts by bringing up concerning things and when I charitably ignore your posts you keep going. I don’t know why you keep threatening to stop posting here. I don’t know why you think I’d care whether you stop or keep going. I don’t know why you keep making that threat and not following through with it. But I also don’t especially care. It’s your life and I doubt the TL forums are much like the online spaces you apparently prefer.
I'm not threatening anything, I'm telling you I will be gone. The end of the line is right here right now, so if you don't stop immediately I will be done here. This is your last chance to change yourself as a person, you don't get another chance. That's not me being dramatic, that's me hoping that other mods talk sense into you because your behavior is getting absolutely out of control, especially as of late.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 08:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 07:53 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:51 GreenHorizons wrote:What you guys missed/are missing is that this is all really just an elaborate way for Kwark to attack my socialist-ness in a silly effort to berate me. On July 10 2024 07:39 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 06:56 Gorsameth wrote:
not interested in a song and dance with you, your not an idiot. you can put 2 and 2 together yourself. I can, and it doesn't add up to anything you people are saying. GH, while balls deep in his Lenin roleplay, decided that the man would be after him if Trump took power. I, in the mood to call out GH's delusions of being Lenin, told him he was indistinguishable from their supporters and that he would be safe from the man. ... That's why he's blathering on about this nonsense that fascism won't be a threat to me specifically. Exactly. I was literally just taking the piss out of the absurdity of GH's delusions of importance. That's all this was before Zambrah lost his fucking mind. You don’t have to be anyone of importance to do rather badly under authoritarian regimes of various kinds, be it by virtue of innate characteristics or belief systems one may hold. Of course what even worst case Trumpian America looks like probably isn’t the Fourth Reich, sure but I don’t think those are observations indicative of a delusion of grandeur
Sure, it’s part of his larger pattern of clowning. GH insists that he’s better than everyone who partakes in the political process in any way because involvement is complicity and only the hands of the revolutionary socialist are truly clean. Anything other than overthrowing the system makes you equal parts guilty of genocide and ecocide. His insistence of his own ideological purity as an enemy of the regime and a revolutionary are comical to me because there’s no real observable difference between him and the “apolitical” supporters of Putin’s fascist regime. Nonparticipation is ceding all power to the leaders, regardless of your motives.
The idea that he genuinely thinks the gestapo are going to smash down his door because they feel threatened by his revolutionary refusal to vote for either party is funny to me.
That said I will gladly eat my words if he actually does a revolution, I do want the imaginary revolution to succeed. I personally also identify as a member of the imaginary revolution. I don’t substantially disagree with his critiques which are mostly pointing out obvious systemic failures like global warming or political polarization. It’s just normal to take credit for the importance of one’s own role in that revolution after the revolution, not before. His strutting elitism over his revolutionary status seems somewhat decoupled from his success rate to date.
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On July 10 2024 09:20 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 09:11 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda.
It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH
GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow. I can promise Kwark does not give a fuck about you leaving the site, and may I suggest this is taken to website feedback or something? I think some of your grievances with Kwark are valid. I want the other mods to talk sense into KwarK, because he's not exclusively targeting me with his outrageously abusive behavior. He's doing the exact same thing to GH as we speak. I know KwarK doesn't care, that's not the reason why I promise to leave. The reason is that I don't want to be on a website that tolerates this kind of targeted abusive behavior by a mod. He openly says how much he dislikes GH. That alone should be a red flag to everyone. He berates people constantly. He thinks he's literally perfect and can never say anything wrong (he hasn't admitted to any fault in YEARS). If nothing is being done about this, then KwarK's attitude reflects the general attitude of the forum. And that means I'm leaving if nothing changes.
Replied in uspol feedback thread, let's all go shit on KwarK there. It'll be a party!
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On July 10 2024 09:20 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 09:11 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 10 2024 08:44 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:29 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:16 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 08:09 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 08:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 07:50 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 07:46 Magic Powers wrote:On July 10 2024 05:35 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
That’s total nonsense. You’re perhaps imagining neo Nazis when the conversation is about regular garden variety Republicans who will happily vote Trump in the hope that he’ll suspend habeus corpus and put drag queens in Gitmo. We’re not talking about the KKK taking over, we’re talking about Trump taking over. Deporting all African Americans is very much not on the agenda.
It was over Trump wins = they’re coming for GH
GH will not be getting deported during a Trump presidency. That’s not a sane take. You clearly don't know the first thing about this. You were specifically talking about American fascists, not "garden variety Republicans". You said they are not targeting black people. This is literally what you said. I don’t envision American fascism going in a hardline “kill all blacks” direction. American fascists are very clear on who their out groups are. ... African Americans aren’t on the list. Stop pretending you know so much better than everyone else what you're talking about. You clearly do not know anything about American fascists. I've talked to them for years, I was in some of the same discord groups they frequented daily. The MAIN concern of American fascists is their beloved ethno-state (that's why they love talking about Japan as the model state). Every time there's news of a black person getting killed, they celebrate. The term "nigger" is par for the course, they use it literally all the time, they wouldn't even consider saying "black people". They see black people as nothing but criminals born into criminality and creating criminality. They see black people as the parasites of American society. Getting rid of black people in America is the PRIMARY concern of American fascists. That's their ideology in ESSENCE. Everything else is secondary. They lament the days of whiteness, when America was as white as a fresh sheet of paper. You can't even begin to comprehend the level of racism they display constantly, it's absolutely mindboggling how they operate. They're racist to the bone. Stop talking like you know anything when it's so obvious you don't know anything. Stop pretending your knowledge about fascists supersedes that of people who've talked to actual fascists for years. You're literally not following the conversation bud. Buddy, if you misuse the term "fascists", don't blame others for correcting you. Admit when you're wrong, try it. It's a good thing to do every once in a while. If you see the word fascists and jump in to explain your lengthy history as a member of fascist groups then I am being charitable in the extreme by refusing to take the opportunity offered. In your position, and given your unusual posting history, I would probably just take the charity and walk away. There we go again with your wild accusations. I said I was in the same circles that fascists visit, not part of a fascist group. That means groups discussing a variety of politics all around the globe. But because you're being criticized and you have absolutely no valid response, your immediate reaction is an ad hominem. That's all you have. Are you ever going to face any consequences for your abusive behavior? Anyone in the moderator team interested in speaking sense into you or is that not of concern for anyone? What's going on? I'm going to leave this website if you continue to get away with abusing people like that. You're by far the worst of all the commentors in the forum. BY FAR! Super abusive AND mod privileges. It's unbelievable that you think this is acceptable. You’re the one jumping into a discussion you’re not understanding (it was about Trumpism, not Nazis, when GH talks about fascists he means the Democrats and everyone to the right of them, we’re accepting his nomenclature as the price to entry for his discussion) and bragging about how much time you’ve spent being in right wing circles and discords overrun with Nazis. Nobody made you do that. Just like nobody made you insist that the Wehrmacht weren’t involved in genocide or that Germany has no history of antisemitism (???) or nobody made you bring up your Nazi grandpa. You just keep sharing these gems. It’s weird though. The vast, vast majority of people on this site seem to go years without me drawing their attention to how many Nazi talking points they use. How strange that the one guy who I happened to randomly accuse of repeating Nazi talking points happened to be the one with the long history in far right wing circles. Just luck I guess. Personally I can’t wait for our next exchange. I’m curious to find out what weird thing you’ll bring up next. If I had to guess then a collection of Nazi memorabilia for “historical purposes” but you always surprise me. If GH misuses the term "fascism" and then you continue to misuse the term, is that your fault or is it GH's fault? It's your fault. And it's also his fault. Two wrongs don't make a right. Your Nazi accusations towards me are a consequence of your personal grudge. You attack people instead of attacking their arguments when you don't know what to say. This is your personal weakness, and it's unacceptable what you're doing. You need to learn a very important lesson, and that lesson has not been taught to you in recent times. Either you stop this behavior immediately or I'm gone by tomorrow. I can promise Kwark does not give a fuck about you leaving the site, and may I suggest this is taken to website feedback or something? I think some of your grievances with Kwark are valid. I want the other mods to talk sense into KwarK, because he's not exclusively targeting me with his outrageously abusive behavior. He's doing the exact same thing to GH as we speak. I know KwarK doesn't care, that's not the reason why I promise to leave. The reason is that I don't want to be on a website that tolerates this kind of targeted abusive behavior by a mod. He openly says how much he dislikes GH. That alone should be a red flag to everyone. He berates people constantly. He thinks he's literally perfect and can never say anything wrong (he hasn't admitted to any fault in YEARS). If nothing is being done about this, then KwarK's attitude reflects the general attitude of the forum. And that means I'm leaving if nothing changes.
If the website letting the mod get away with what he wants was such a huge problem you'd be getting banned for this kind of post.
Just pretend KwarK isn't a mod. He's not going to ban you.
Either way, yes, its irritating getting in an argument with KwarK. I've had that problem myself. I solved it by not getting involved. You know when someone posts something so annoying you HAVE to reply. You can get over that with a little patience.
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On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways.
Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists.
Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working.
Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves?
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On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. .... Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. .....
Hm.. Somehow that also sounds really similar to what happens in socialst/communist regimes (or any authoritarian regime for that matter).
But I'm sure your headcannon can explain that away somehow.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves?
The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc.
You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. They’ll come for everyone eventually and as a member of everyone that means you.
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On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally.
I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable.
But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it.
We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo.
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The new fascists don't know what a a socialist is. They won't grab you off the street and put you into a secret prison.
"Socialist" is a word you use to avoid any discussion and claim even the idea is just a fantasy that won't work out.
"The USSR had public transport, so public transport is socialist, and that doesn't work - we need another 18 lanes for that highway"
The new fascists that confuse freedom with "getting their will, all the time" are completely erratic, and don't even have a concept of socialism and capitalism.
Even the more moderate conservative all have forgotten that capitalism works very well with taxation and regulation. They have forgotten that capitalism NEEDS competition - not 2-3 big players so big, that they are happy with their 1/2 or 1/3 market share and just keep raising prices, while reducing service and quality.
Russia attacking Ukraine was such a boost for the shameless grab. Cut the package sizes in half, and up the prices by 100%... and people blame the government.
Yep. They are to blame.. for not enabeling windfall taxes and grab all that money back from corporations. IMF says that 80% of the inflation on everyday goods is straight going to profits.
Yet at least half the people want to avoid "trustbusting" and higher taxes.
"Don't anger big daddy Corpo, he has been drinking again, and if you make him lose profits, he gets out the belt.."
The capitalism the conservatives protect by yelling "SOCIALISM" at any slight idea of regulation, has fully turned into an aristocracy of wealth.
The wealth inequality of the US is similar to aristocratic europe. Very few people own basicly everything.
And now the Magats want to complete the cycle by getting King Trump.
No, Green Horizons.. there isn't a Gestapo out there that will grab you for being socialistDaddyStalin69 on Reddit.. they will run you over with their truck if don't do the trump salute in 2026
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 10 2024 06:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
RenSC2/Fleetfeet/Simberto/Wombat/PVJ - Recently, I've only been available to lurk, but I still wanted to tip my hat to you all for spending the time and energy to engage with oBlade's extreme religious premises, projections, overgeneralizations, semantics, and improper comparisons between the left and the right. I think your good-faith questions and responses are exposing a lot of weaknesses in oBlade's perspective.
Why thank you sir, a bit of inter-user positivity in USPol? :O Hopefully you can return from your lurkage sooner rather than later.
In fairness maybe there is the genesis of a point or two in there, but it’s impossible to get to if it’s buried in a sheen giant wall of conclusions made from barely-connected anecdotes.
Humans broadly share more than what separates them, but there are significant enough differences in actual core values, or indeed in base psychology between left and right-wing people that I think it’s flawed to express similarities in behaviour as merely being vectors for the same underlying phenomena.
I mean for one, religious folks kinda want their particular religion to be well, true. Supposed religious substitutes that the left adhere to are broadly things they rather weren’t true, otherwise they wouldn’t rail against them.
There used to be many a left-wing leader subject to the cult of personality, it’s not something leftists are somehow immune to. These days they feel very, very thin on the ground, whereas there’s more than you can shake a stick at on the right. Indeed I wonder why there’s such a paucity of the former.
Going back to Blade’s point earlier, to me what differentiates a cult of personality from merely being popular, is in the former people will bend their own ostensible values to maintain the infallibility of Dear Leader, someone who is merely popular can fall from grace pretty quickly if they start doing things that are unpopular to their fan base.
If I was being uncharitable it had crossed my mind that folks have a pretty internalised and repressed, but still existent comprehension that various charges made against them are pretty accurate, so seek to identify those same behaviours in the ‘other’.
Hey I think it’s an interesting enough broader subject to explore similarities in political psyche as well as differences, so long as it doesn’t take the form of a string of observations like ‘Rachel Maddow said something on her show once’ metastasising into a conclusion as far-reaching as ‘leftists act as a religious order’ or what have you.
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On July 10 2024 15:59 KT_Elwood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The new fascists don't know what a a socialist is. They won't grab you off the street and put you into a secret prison.
"Socialist" is a word you use to avoid any discussion and claim even the idea is just a fantasy that won't work out.
"The USSR had public transport, so public transport is socialist, and that doesn't work - we need another 18 lanes for that highway"
The new fascists that confuse freedom with "getting their will, all the time" are completely erratic, and don't even have a concept of socialism and capitalism.
Even the more moderate conservative all have forgotten that capitalism works very well with taxation and regulation. They have forgotten that capitalism NEEDS competition - not 2-3 big players so big, that they are happy with their 1/2 or 1/3 market share and just keep raising prices, while reducing service and quality.
Russia attacking Ukraine was such a boost for the shameless grab. Cut the package sizes in half, and up the prices by 100%... and people blame the government.
Yep. They are to blame.. for not enabeling windfall taxes and grab all that money back from corporations. IMF says that 80% of the inflation on everyday goods is straight going to profits.
Yet at least half the people want to avoid "trustbusting" and higher taxes.
"Don't anger big daddy Corpo, he has been drinking again, and if you make him lose profits, he gets out the belt.."
The capitalism the conservatives protect by yelling "SOCIALISM" at any slight idea of regulation, has fully turned into an aristocracy of wealth.
The wealth inequality of the US is similar to aristocratic europe. Very few people own basicly everything.
And now the Magats want to complete the cycle by getting King Trump.
No, Green Horizons.. there isn't a Gestapo out there that will grab you for being socialistDaddyStalin69 on Reddit.. they will run you over with their truck if don't do the trump salute in 2026
That's what I was trying to cover with being Black and not a sycophant.
That basically as a Black guy that spends a lot of time in rural areas driving past tons of Trump signs and flags (0 Biden stuff from 2024 fwiw) all I'll have to do in Trump's fascist US is exist in the wrong place at the wrong time and maybe not be obsequious enough and I could easily end up roadkill and written off as an unfortunate accident or some other bullshit. Hell I've had some close calls in the US as it is.
That's without even getting into how Trump's scheduled Juneteenth rally at the site of the Tulsa race massacre (something a lot of libs only learned about then) gives a very different impression of the animosity toward unassuming (let alone us uppity types lol) Black people among his supporters than Kwarks understanding does.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable. But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it. We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo.
It was about you because you made it about you with your assertion that you merited being on the list for political purges. But fair enough, maybe you are on a watchlist somewhere. I can respect direct action.
I’m also not in any way blind to the failures of the current political system and how they can’t be fixed within that system. Nor am I blind to how capitalism isn’t addressing the ecological catastrophe facing us or the concentration of wealth and power in a handful of elites. That’s why I’ve always included myself in the imaginary revolution, I’m an imaginary card carrying member. In a way the question answers itself, revolution is simply what it is called when you overturn a political system and socialist is what it is called when you redistribute the means of production. The description of the problem necessarily leads to that answer.
The reason I push so hard for also engaging in harm reduction is simply that I don’t think you’ll win. Also, if you do win, there’s an extremely bad track record for revolutions actually making things better. They’re almost always immediately co-opted by tyrants who turn on the masses. So you’ll not only need to win against the status quo, you’ll also need to win against the revolutionaries themselves.
These aren’t new questions though, you’ve been asked a great many times how your revolution will avoid the pitfalls that seem to be an inevitable product of human nature.
I’m not saying this to put you on the spot with any expectation of a simple answer, I don’t think there is one. The status quo will defend itself with violence and so the revolution will need more violence to succeed and yet more to suppress counterrevolutionary elements but it must do this without being tyrannical. The contradictions are unavoidable.
Socialist revolution is the solution by definition, it’s just the words that mean the opposite of the defined problem, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. If the problem was an unstoppable force then the answer “immovable object” would be the correct solution but I wouldn’t know how to make one. That’s why it’s the Pepsi solution, it’s the starting point, all the impossible work is still to be done. Proclaiming the need for a socialist revolution (implicitly a successful one that somehow avoids all the failures of every previous attempt) is stating the obvious, it’s not virtuous. It’s the identification of a problem that we’re all already aware of.
I don’t have confidence in the success of the project and certainly not enough confidence to oppose any efforts at harm reduction. I’m in the imaginary revolution but I’m going to vote Biden as well. If the revolution works, great, but if it doesn’t then at least we won’t have Trump again. Not ideal, but not the very worst timeline.
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On July 10 2024 16:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable. But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it. We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo. + Show Spoiler +It was about you because you made it about you with your assertion that you merited being on the list for political purges. But fair enough, maybe you are on a watchlist somewhere. I can respect direct action.
I’m also not in any way blind to the failures of the current political system and how they can’t be fixed within that system. Nor am I blind to how capitalism isn’t addressing the ecological catastrophe facing us or the concentration of wealth and power in a handful of elites. That’s why I’ve always included myself in the imaginary revolution, I’m an imaginary card carrying member. + Show Spoiler +In a way the question answers itself, revolution is simply what it is called when you overturn a political system and socialist is what it is called when you redistribute the means of production. The description of the problem necessarily leads to that answer.
The reason I push so hard for also engaging in harm reduction is simply that I don’t think you’ll win. Also, if you do win, there’s an extremely bad track record for revolutions actually making things better. They’re almost always immediately co-opted by tyrants who turn on the masses. So you’ll not only need to win against the status quo, you’ll also need to win against the revolutionaries themselves.
These aren’t new questions though, you’ve been asked a great many times how your revolution will avoid the pitfalls that seem to be an inevitable product of human nature.
I’m not saying this to put you on the spot with any expectation of a simple answer, I don’t think there is one. The status quo will defend itself with violence and so the revolution will need more violence to succeed and yet more to suppress counterrevolutionary elements but it must do this without being tyrannical. The contradictions are unavoidable.
Socialist revolution is the solution by definition, it’s just the words that mean the opposite of the defined problem, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. If the problem was an unstoppable force then the answer “immovable object” would be the correct solution but I wouldn’t know how to make one. That’s why it’s the Pepsi solution, it’s the starting point, all the impossible work is still to be done. Proclaiming the need for a socialist revolution (implicitly a successful one that somehow avoids all the failures of every previous attempt) is stating the obvious, it’s not virtuous.
I don’t have confidence in the success of the project and certainly not enough confidence to oppose any efforts at harm reduction. I’m in the imaginary revolution but I’m going to vote Biden as well.
You don't just lack confidence, you actively try to undermine those that do. You're not part of or supportive of socialist revolution (imagined or otherwise), you're clearly in opposition to it and instead support reformism that is contrary to socialist goals.
You can do that, just don't try to claim you're actually a socialist that is joining me in the streets.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 16:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 16:32 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable. But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it. We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo. + Show Spoiler +It was about you because you made it about you with your assertion that you merited being on the list for political purges. But fair enough, maybe you are on a watchlist somewhere. I can respect direct action.
I’m also not in any way blind to the failures of the current political system and how they can’t be fixed within that system. Nor am I blind to how capitalism isn’t addressing the ecological catastrophe facing us or the concentration of wealth and power in a handful of elites. That’s why I’ve always included myself in the imaginary revolution, I’m an imaginary card carrying member. + Show Spoiler +In a way the question answers itself, revolution is simply what it is called when you overturn a political system and socialist is what it is called when you redistribute the means of production. The description of the problem necessarily leads to that answer.
The reason I push so hard for also engaging in harm reduction is simply that I don’t think you’ll win. Also, if you do win, there’s an extremely bad track record for revolutions actually making things better. They’re almost always immediately co-opted by tyrants who turn on the masses. So you’ll not only need to win against the status quo, you’ll also need to win against the revolutionaries themselves.
These aren’t new questions though, you’ve been asked a great many times how your revolution will avoid the pitfalls that seem to be an inevitable product of human nature.
I’m not saying this to put you on the spot with any expectation of a simple answer, I don’t think there is one. The status quo will defend itself with violence and so the revolution will need more violence to succeed and yet more to suppress counterrevolutionary elements but it must do this without being tyrannical. The contradictions are unavoidable.
Socialist revolution is the solution by definition, it’s just the words that mean the opposite of the defined problem, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. If the problem was an unstoppable force then the answer “immovable object” would be the correct solution but I wouldn’t know how to make one. That’s why it’s the Pepsi solution, it’s the starting point, all the impossible work is still to be done. Proclaiming the need for a socialist revolution (implicitly a successful one that somehow avoids all the failures of every previous attempt) is stating the obvious, it’s not virtuous.
I don’t have confidence in the success of the project and certainly not enough confidence to oppose any efforts at harm reduction. I’m in the imaginary revolution but I’m going to vote Biden as well. You don't just lack confidence, you actively try to undermine those that do. You're not part of or supportive of socialist revolution (imagined or otherwise), you're clearly in opposition to it and instead support reformism that is contrary to socialist goals. You can do that, just don't try to claim you're actually a socialist that is joining me in the streets.
I’m not undermining your revolution. I have consistently exhorted you to greater revolutionary activities including numerous suggestions that you man up and bomb Federal buildings (edit for the FBI, the buildings in question are also imaginary). I just don’t think it’s wise to give up on everything else on the assumption that you’ll definitely win. You don’t have to choose, you can do both.
Honestly if you think our revolution can be derailed by my posts on teamliquid then I think you’re the one who lacks confidence in it. I think it’s a long shot either way but I’m not evangelizing that, I’m not out there at rallies telling people to go home or anything. I’m just posting on tl on the assumption that none of these posts have any impact on the imaginary revolution.
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On July 10 2024 16:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 16:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 16:32 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable. But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it. We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo. + Show Spoiler +It was about you because you made it about you with your assertion that you merited being on the list for political purges. But fair enough, maybe you are on a watchlist somewhere. I can respect direct action.
I’m also not in any way blind to the failures of the current political system and how they can’t be fixed within that system. Nor am I blind to how capitalism isn’t addressing the ecological catastrophe facing us or the concentration of wealth and power in a handful of elites. That’s why I’ve always included myself in the imaginary revolution, I’m an imaginary card carrying member. + Show Spoiler +In a way the question answers itself, revolution is simply what it is called when you overturn a political system and socialist is what it is called when you redistribute the means of production. The description of the problem necessarily leads to that answer.
The reason I push so hard for also engaging in harm reduction is simply that I don’t think you’ll win. Also, if you do win, there’s an extremely bad track record for revolutions actually making things better. They’re almost always immediately co-opted by tyrants who turn on the masses. So you’ll not only need to win against the status quo, you’ll also need to win against the revolutionaries themselves.
These aren’t new questions though, you’ve been asked a great many times how your revolution will avoid the pitfalls that seem to be an inevitable product of human nature.
I’m not saying this to put you on the spot with any expectation of a simple answer, I don’t think there is one. The status quo will defend itself with violence and so the revolution will need more violence to succeed and yet more to suppress counterrevolutionary elements but it must do this without being tyrannical. The contradictions are unavoidable.
Socialist revolution is the solution by definition, it’s just the words that mean the opposite of the defined problem, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. If the problem was an unstoppable force then the answer “immovable object” would be the correct solution but I wouldn’t know how to make one. That’s why it’s the Pepsi solution, it’s the starting point, all the impossible work is still to be done. Proclaiming the need for a socialist revolution (implicitly a successful one that somehow avoids all the failures of every previous attempt) is stating the obvious, it’s not virtuous.
I don’t have confidence in the success of the project and certainly not enough confidence to oppose any efforts at harm reduction. I’m in the imaginary revolution but I’m going to vote Biden as well. You don't just lack confidence, you actively try to undermine those that do. You're not part of or supportive of socialist revolution (imagined or otherwise), you're clearly in opposition to it and instead support reformism that is contrary to socialist goals. You can do that, just don't try to claim you're actually a socialist that is joining me in the streets. I’m not undermining your revolution. I have consistently exhorted you to greater revolutionary activities including numerous suggestions that you man up and bomb Federal buildings. I just don’t think it’s wise to give up on everything else on the assumption that you’ll definitely win. You most certainly are, and you trying to gaslight me while goading me with toxic masculinity to commit terrorist acts like a fed is absolutely absurd, so I'll leave it at that.
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United States43403 Posts
On July 10 2024 17:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2024 16:49 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 16:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 16:32 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:44 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 15:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 10 2024 15:16 KwarK wrote:On July 10 2024 14:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Not actually being a socialist outside of this website based on his imaginary caricature of me offline. If you want online credit for your offline achievements then you’re going to have to share them online. There’s no requirement that you share them online, you’re welcome to keep them to yourself. But if you make vague allusions to them online like suggesting that “they” will “come for” you due to your important offline political activities then you’re trying to have it both ways. I’ve been consistent in saying that I would be happy to be proven wrong. If it turns out you actually are Lenin offline then you can spend however much time you want saying that I was wrong and you’d be right to do that. But so far there’s just no evidence to support your online pomposity. Just as a point of clarity, it was never for my "important offline political activities" just that I would be dealt with along with other socialists. Part of my larger point was that no one is safe under fascism, even the fascists themselves. Because when fascism runs out of external targets, they don't arrive at their promised utopia, they just find new targets among themselves to blame for it not working. Perhaps this is just all about the tongue in cheek reference to liberal TL'ers pointing at me as the subversive they know of to avoid being randomly rounded up by Trump's fascist goon squads themselves? The socialists in Niemöller’s poem were fighting the Nazis in the streets. They were the organized resistance, they were armed, they broke up meetings, held violent strikes etc. + Show Spoiler +You wouldn’t be dealt with alongside them, you’re not one of them, you can’t even bring yourself to vote against fascists.
That said, it’s a fair point about the self devouring nature of fascism. While I continue to maintain that your suggestion that you’d make their list is pure pomposity and that you’re really one of the apolitical masses you’re technically correct that even they ultimately aren’t safe.
They’ll come for the resistance and then at a much later date after running out of ideas they’ll come for you and I. But technically that counts so sure, you can have that point, even if you got there accidentally. I've participated in various forms of organized resistance to date, including confrontations with police. I am and will continue to be in the streets putting my socialist studies into practice including the more disruptive methods you describe if/when they are necessary/advisable. But even if I wasn't, it's not about me and what I do or don't do. It's about what we as a society do and don't do and why we should or shouldn't do it. We should embrace socialism because our lives and liberty depend on us doing so imo. + Show Spoiler +It was about you because you made it about you with your assertion that you merited being on the list for political purges. But fair enough, maybe you are on a watchlist somewhere. I can respect direct action.
I’m also not in any way blind to the failures of the current political system and how they can’t be fixed within that system. Nor am I blind to how capitalism isn’t addressing the ecological catastrophe facing us or the concentration of wealth and power in a handful of elites. That’s why I’ve always included myself in the imaginary revolution, I’m an imaginary card carrying member. + Show Spoiler +In a way the question answers itself, revolution is simply what it is called when you overturn a political system and socialist is what it is called when you redistribute the means of production. The description of the problem necessarily leads to that answer.
The reason I push so hard for also engaging in harm reduction is simply that I don’t think you’ll win. Also, if you do win, there’s an extremely bad track record for revolutions actually making things better. They’re almost always immediately co-opted by tyrants who turn on the masses. So you’ll not only need to win against the status quo, you’ll also need to win against the revolutionaries themselves.
These aren’t new questions though, you’ve been asked a great many times how your revolution will avoid the pitfalls that seem to be an inevitable product of human nature.
I’m not saying this to put you on the spot with any expectation of a simple answer, I don’t think there is one. The status quo will defend itself with violence and so the revolution will need more violence to succeed and yet more to suppress counterrevolutionary elements but it must do this without being tyrannical. The contradictions are unavoidable.
Socialist revolution is the solution by definition, it’s just the words that mean the opposite of the defined problem, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. If the problem was an unstoppable force then the answer “immovable object” would be the correct solution but I wouldn’t know how to make one. That’s why it’s the Pepsi solution, it’s the starting point, all the impossible work is still to be done. Proclaiming the need for a socialist revolution (implicitly a successful one that somehow avoids all the failures of every previous attempt) is stating the obvious, it’s not virtuous.
I don’t have confidence in the success of the project and certainly not enough confidence to oppose any efforts at harm reduction. I’m in the imaginary revolution but I’m going to vote Biden as well. You don't just lack confidence, you actively try to undermine those that do. You're not part of or supportive of socialist revolution (imagined or otherwise), you're clearly in opposition to it and instead support reformism that is contrary to socialist goals. You can do that, just don't try to claim you're actually a socialist that is joining me in the streets. I’m not undermining your revolution. I have consistently exhorted you to greater revolutionary activities including numerous suggestions that you man up and bomb Federal buildings. I just don’t think it’s wise to give up on everything else on the assumption that you’ll definitely win. You most certainly are, and you trying to gaslight me while goading me with toxic masculinity to commit terrorist acts like a fed is absolutely absurd, so I'll leave it at that.
I believe our preferred revolutionary nomenclature is “revolutionary acts”. Calling them “terrorist acts” is undermining our revolution. Nobody wants to be a terrorist.
Fortunately you only slipped up on TL and, as I said, no reasonable person would think any TL post would undermine the imaginary revolution.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Has GH ever advocated for some armed revolution, whipping the guillotines out from storage and whatnot?
My memory isn’t what it was in my youth so perhaps I’m misremembering but I don’t recall advocacy of that particular course
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EPT
