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On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 19 2024 16:08 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
My point was that preference and discrimination were one in the same. Preference is just a prettier word.
I think there's a lot to your sentence about what is culturally and socially acceptable. We used to follow the MLK standard - strive for a color blind society where people don't treat people different on the color of the skin or other hereditary characteristics. Recently there's been a shift where instead we instead we should discriminate MORE so that we can equal the scales. Too many Asians at this university... let's make it a little harder for them to get in... not enough blacks over here... let's thumb the scale for them a little bit.
I don't really agree with that but whatever. The added layer of obnoxiousness for me is when the SJWs decide that unless you also want to discriminate in the arbitrary ways they see fit then you're the racist, misogynist, or any other -ist. It's madness. I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice. I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 19 2024 16:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 10:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 19 2024 09:31 BlackJack wrote:
Remember, it’s not just female vocalist. It’s also female football commentators. Anything else? Perhaps a female general is not going to inspire her troops the way a male general does? Is there some logical difference between commanding troops and calling football plays? Perhaps it only matters to football announcers and rock music because that’s the playground where we don’t want women invading that pertain to our interests? Not to mention female employees and female presidents! I agree with your general point about how hard it can be to distinguish between preference and prejudice. Is there a clear distinction that someone can make? Does it have to do with how much harm is being done? How conscious the discrimination is? Does preference become serious prejudice if it's a protected class (sex, race, etc.)? Does prejudice become a mere preference if there's some sort of special justification for it? I honestly have no idea. Random thought: Are heterosexuality and homosexuality inherently prejudicial? I'm attracted to women, but not men. Is that sexist? It's not like I can be educated out of my sexual preference, or that I have any control over it, but perhaps these definitions of prejudice and preference are too vague to pin down. Perhaps the difference is simply this: "If the perspective is socially, culturally acceptable, then it's merely preference. If it's considered taboo and unethical, then it's serious prejudice." My point was that preference and discrimination were one in the same. Preference is just a prettier word. I think there's a lot to your sentence about what is culturally and socially acceptable. We used to follow the MLK standard - strive for a color blind society where people don't treat people different on the color of the skin or other hereditary characteristics. Recently there's been a shift where instead we instead we should discriminate MORE so that we can equal the scales. Too many Asians at this university... let's make it a little harder for them to get in... not enough blacks over here... let's thumb the scale for them a little bit. I don't really agree with that but whatever. The added layer of obnoxiousness for me is when the SJWs decide that unless you also want to discriminate in the arbitrary ways they see fit then you're the racist, misogynist, or any other -ist. It's madness. I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice. I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients?
Because you're not getting naked in front of them?
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On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice.
I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 19 2024 16:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 10:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Not to mention female employees and female presidents!
I agree with your general point about how hard it can be to distinguish between preference and prejudice. Is there a clear distinction that someone can make? Does it have to do with how much harm is being done? How conscious the discrimination is? Does preference become serious prejudice if it's a protected class (sex, race, etc.)? Does prejudice become a mere preference if there's some sort of special justification for it? I honestly have no idea.
Random thought: Are heterosexuality and homosexuality inherently prejudicial? I'm attracted to women, but not men. Is that sexist? It's not like I can be educated out of my sexual preference, or that I have any control over it, but perhaps these definitions of prejudice and preference are too vague to pin down. Perhaps the difference is simply this: "If the perspective is socially, culturally acceptable, then it's merely preference. If it's considered taboo and unethical, then it's serious prejudice." My point was that preference and discrimination were one in the same. Preference is just a prettier word. I think there's a lot to your sentence about what is culturally and socially acceptable. We used to follow the MLK standard - strive for a color blind society where people don't treat people different on the color of the skin or other hereditary characteristics. Recently there's been a shift where instead we instead we should discriminate MORE so that we can equal the scales. Too many Asians at this university... let's make it a little harder for them to get in... not enough blacks over here... let's thumb the scale for them a little bit. I don't really agree with that but whatever. The added layer of obnoxiousness for me is when the SJWs decide that unless you also want to discriminate in the arbitrary ways they see fit then you're the racist, misogynist, or any other -ist. It's madness. I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice. I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them?
So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice?
So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced?
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On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele?
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 19 2024 16:08 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
My point was that preference and discrimination were one in the same. Preference is just a prettier word.
I think there's a lot to your sentence about what is culturally and socially acceptable. We used to follow the MLK standard - strive for a color blind society where people don't treat people different on the color of the skin or other hereditary characteristics. Recently there's been a shift where instead we instead we should discriminate MORE so that we can equal the scales. Too many Asians at this university... let's make it a little harder for them to get in... not enough blacks over here... let's thumb the scale for them a little bit.
I don't really agree with that but whatever. The added layer of obnoxiousness for me is when the SJWs decide that unless you also want to discriminate in the arbitrary ways they see fit then you're the racist, misogynist, or any other -ist. It's madness. I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice. I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced?
Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice?
I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced?
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On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele?
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 19 2024 16:08 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
My point was that preference and discrimination were one in the same. Preference is just a prettier word.
I think there's a lot to your sentence about what is culturally and socially acceptable. We used to follow the MLK standard - strive for a color blind society where people don't treat people different on the color of the skin or other hereditary characteristics. Recently there's been a shift where instead we instead we should discriminate MORE so that we can equal the scales. Too many Asians at this university... let's make it a little harder for them to get in... not enough blacks over here... let's thumb the scale for them a little bit.
I don't really agree with that but whatever. The added layer of obnoxiousness for me is when the SJWs decide that unless you also want to discriminate in the arbitrary ways they see fit then you're the racist, misogynist, or any other -ist. It's madness. I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice. I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced?
If you feel unsafe in the presence of other races you are indeed prejudiced. If you however always feel uncomfortable in front of random strangers then no. How about if a dude who doesn't like to be naked in front of strangers, but has no issue with a male doctor or female doctor, but doesn't want to change in front of men in a locker room would he be prejudiced against men? But he is a man? Does he hate himself?
I'm not saying that the scenarios you're talking about can't have instances where the result is due to prejudice, but prejudice is not a given when that result happens.
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On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor.
In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice.
I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice.
I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced?
Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone.
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On June 21 2024 16:10 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor.
In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice.
I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2024 17:59 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
I think there's a clear distinction between areas of our lives that are deeply personal, e.g. entertainment and dating, vs the non-personal ones, e.g. going to the doctor, getting food served, etc. You might prefer female metal singers over male ones, or south American commentators over Spanish ones, or you might be into men with big butts over skinny ones and I think that's perfectly okay. Preferring a male doctor over a female one is not preference, it's prejudice.
I think a clear line is crossed when people say statements like "X minority group has no place in Y because of Z(stereotypical characteristic of X group)", or "X minority group is always inferior because of Y". That's just plain racism/sexism/whatever-ism. Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele? Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? If you feel unsafe in the presence of other races you are indeed prejudiced. If you however always feel uncomfortable in front of random strangers then no. How about if a dude who doesn't like to be naked in front of strangers, but has no issue with a male doctor or female doctor, but doesn't want to change in front of men in a locker room would he be prejudiced against men? But he is a man? Does he hate himself? I'm not saying that the scenarios you're talking about can't have instances where the result is due to prejudice, but prejudice is not a given when that result happens.
This is why the 'why' is important. If the reason is "because I fear that I will be sexually assaulted", that's prejudice. It may be justified, and we, as a society, have decided that it is okay in this moment in time, but it's still prejudice.
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It's almost like prejudice is gradiated, not absolute. I'm prejudiced against cats, that doesn't make me a bad person in and of itself. If I'm prejudiced against cats in such a way that I actively pursue harming cats, that's bad and worse than if I just refuse to pet them and don't respect their spaces. They're both prejudice and bad, but they don't have the same value.
You can say something or someone is prejudiced without it automatically meaning they're horrible. Everyone has prejudices, all you should be doing is attempting to be aware and ahead of your own.
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On June 21 2024 16:52 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 02:46 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Entertainment is more personal than who your doctor is? I know plenty of women that wouldn’t want a male OB/GYN. Can you elaborate on why you think someone being up in your vagina is less personal than who is screaming GOOOOALLLL on the tele?
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor. In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice. I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced? Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone.
“should we hire a singer for our wedding honey”
“Sure as long as they aren’t black sweetheart.”
Perfectly ok according to you?
They’re not saying black people have no place as wedding singers, it just wouldn’t be the right feel for their wedding. It’s because of the genre of music they want to play. It’s a genre thing.
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On June 21 2024 17:23 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 16:52 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
@Salazarz I'd also prefer Rammstein to Nightwish for workout music (unless Marko is also providing vocals), I wouldn't call myself a misogynist either... I also prefer cats over dogs, but I don't know what that has to do with race.
You're missing my point. I'm not seeking to label people bigots. But preferring men over women (and vice versa) for certain jobs is sexist, period.
My point is to call out the fact that people want to make up their own rules, that are arbitrary and can change on a whim for what they think is or isn't acceptable forms of discrimination. This thread basically proves my point. People want to work backwards "Well I know I'm not a sexist and I prefer a male football commentator over a female commentator therefore there's nothing even slightly sexist about preferring a male football commentator over a female football commentator." The same logic could be applied endlessly to any other profession. People are just floundering around grasping at straws to make up these imaginary distinctions when they should instead acknowledge that they have prejudices just like everyone has prejudices. We should try having honest discussions about it instead of pretending like it's some binary thing where you're either a card carrying member of the KKK or you have no prejudices whatsoever.
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
Did I mistranslate that? Private as in it involves yourself Vs stuff that directly involves others? The most clear example I can think of is what I said, the entertainment you consume Vs going to the doctor.
In your example I'd say women that prefer female ob/gyn are doing what you said earlier, i.e. it's a different word for prejudice.
I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced? Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone. “should we hire a singer for our wedding honey” “Sure as long as they aren’t black sweetheart.” Perfectly ok according to you? They’re not saying black people have no place as wedding singers, it just wouldn’t be the right feel for their wedding. It’s because of the genre of music they want to play. It’s a genre thing.
The why is important. You're trying to reduce this to a simplistic binary choice. If you don't want to hire black musicians because you think black people are inferior, that's obviously problematic.
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There are two levels to this:
Does something fit the definition of prejudice?
That's binary.
Is it okay?
That's not binary.
It might be perfectly okay to prefer a female doctor over a male one in a climate where many male doctors have been found to abuse their position of power to commit a heinous crime. It's still prejudice to make that choice purely on the basis of gender.
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On June 21 2024 18:03 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 17:23 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 16:52 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 10:35 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Because men are far more likely to sexually assault women.
[quote] If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 20 2024 06:40 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
I don't think that classifys under prejudice. The reasoning behind that feeling or idea tells what it is. Simply being uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex isn't the same as being prejudiced against men or men doctors. The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced? Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone. “should we hire a singer for our wedding honey” “Sure as long as they aren’t black sweetheart.” Perfectly ok according to you? They’re not saying black people have no place as wedding singers, it just wouldn’t be the right feel for their wedding. It’s because of the genre of music they want to play. It’s a genre thing. The why is important. You're trying to reduce this to a simplistic binary choice. If you don't want to hire black musicians because you think black people are inferior, that's obviously problematic.
I think quoted is pretty horrible example as to "why" is important. I somewhat struggle to find any "why" which doesn't come across prejudiced.
Edit: sorry corrected double negation, which kinda changed entire meaning.
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On June 21 2024 19:43 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 18:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 17:23 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 16:52 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:On June 20 2024 16:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
If you're expecting your male healthcare professional to sexually assault you, then that does sound like prejudice to me. So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed? Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one? On June 20 2024 07:18 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
The question is why would they be uncomfortable with a doctor of the opposite sex? Presumably male and female OB/GYN are equally competent, as in, their gender has nothing to do with whether they're good at their jobs or not. But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced? Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone. “should we hire a singer for our wedding honey” “Sure as long as they aren’t black sweetheart.” Perfectly ok according to you? They’re not saying black people have no place as wedding singers, it just wouldn’t be the right feel for their wedding. It’s because of the genre of music they want to play. It’s a genre thing. The why is important. You're trying to reduce this to a simplistic binary choice. If you don't want to hire black musicians because you think black people are inferior, that's obviously problematic. I think quoted is pretty horrible example as to "why" is important. I somewhat struggle to find any "why" which doesn't come across prejudiced. Edit: sorry corrected double negation, which kinda changed entire meaning.
I don't disagree with the premise, no amount of justification turns prejudice into nonprejudice. The argument is more about under which circumstances it is acceptable. For instance, we all accept that bathrooms segregated by gender is okay, although it's predicated on prejudice.
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On June 21 2024 21:03 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 19:43 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2024 18:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 17:23 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 16:52 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On June 21 2024 15:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 08:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 21 2024 05:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On June 21 2024 04:30 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
So you think their prejudice revovles around specifically male healthcare professionals? Or is that you don't understand why they feel less comfortable around a specific gender while exposed?
Out of curiosity, would you feel more, less, or equal amount of awkward if you were getting a lap dance at a regular strip club vs homosexual one?
[quote]
But they're not questioning their competency based off their sex. This is about comfort and even if their discomfort to you makes no sense, it doesn't make it a prejudice. They're not saying that a specific gender isn't smart enough to or isn't capable of or shouldn't, they simply feel awkward in front of a stranger of a different sex. Some people feel uncomfortable in front of a person of a different race. Some people maximise their safety by not being around people of other races. I am sure you would have no qualms about calling that prejudice. Why make the exception for male doctors/female patients? Because you're not getting naked in front of them? So, if I understand this correctly, whether or not you're naked determines if something that is typically prejudice becomes not prejudice? So, if someone who feels unsafe in the presence of people of other races requests racially segregated changing rooms, are they being prejudiced? Weren't you also arguing that it's okay to prefer male singers over female singers because it's a personal choice? I could apply the same shift that you're applying and change it from gender to race. It's okay for you to prefer white singers over black singers and it's not prejudiced? Plenty of people prefer black singers over white ones, it can be quite genre-specific. I think saying that white men have no place as jazz singers is prejudiced, but I have no qualms with you if you tell me that you prefer Nina Simone. “should we hire a singer for our wedding honey” “Sure as long as they aren’t black sweetheart.” Perfectly ok according to you? They’re not saying black people have no place as wedding singers, it just wouldn’t be the right feel for their wedding. It’s because of the genre of music they want to play. It’s a genre thing. The why is important. You're trying to reduce this to a simplistic binary choice. If you don't want to hire black musicians because you think black people are inferior, that's obviously problematic. I think quoted is pretty horrible example as to "why" is important. I somewhat struggle to find any "why" which doesn't come across prejudiced. Edit: sorry corrected double negation, which kinda changed entire meaning. I don't disagree with the premise, no amount of justification turns prejudice into nonprejudice. The argument is more about under which circumstances it is acceptable. For instance, we all accept that bathrooms segregated by gender is okay, although it's predicated on prejudice.
Depends on the type of bathroom here. Often the female ones have a second bin for non-paper goods when they are all next to each other. When fully separated into different areas it is often because you have an urinal in the male section to save time, which is not shared based on a puritan view.
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On June 21 2024 18:33 EnDeR_ wrote:
There are two levels to this:
Does something fit the definition of prejudice?
That's binary.
Is it okay?
That's not binary.
It might be perfectly okay to prefer a female doctor over a male one in a climate where many male doctors have been found to abuse their position of power to commit a heinous crime. It's still prejudice to make that choice purely on the basis of gender.
That was essentially my point the entire time.
You were trying to argue that preferring males in certain professions was not prejudice while not wanting to be naked in front of males is prejudiced. Justifying it with these bizarrely arbitrary reasons like "it's personal." As if listening to music at a concert is more personal than exposing your genitals. I'm glad we came to agreement.
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On June 21 2024 18:33 EnDeR_ wrote:
There are two levels to this:
Does something fit the definition of prejudice?
That's binary.
Is it okay?
That's not binary.
It might be perfectly okay to prefer a female doctor over a male one in a climate where many male doctors have been found to abuse their position of power to commit a heinous crime. It's still prejudice to make that choice purely on the basis of gender.
As a person working in healthcare and having had classes on the subject.
Actually, that would not be fine because it's the same as saying you don't want a black doctor because of X reason. No way male doctors are involved in whatever crime you have conjured up enough to warrant that decision.
However it's perfectly fine to not choose a male doctor if it makes you feel uncomfortable for either personal, cultural or religious reasons.
Hell it's perfectly fine (honestly preferable) to chose another doctor if you don't mesh with their personality.
It's also fine to not want a doctor with an accent if you are old and have poor hearing and previous bad experience with not understanding them.
Healthcare is not just about treatment it's also about patient confort and practical, personal, cultural and religious reasons are all valid reasons for choosing your caregiver. However you need to accept that your treatment might suffer for it. If you can't be treated by a male doctor and no one else is avalible that's your choice and you might be fucked because of it.
But being racists or misogynistic is not a valid reason for picking a caregiver. In practice if you are not also dumb as fuck and say that part out loud it would never be an issue.
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This has to be the dumbest debate in this thread in a long time. So congrats on achieving that much I suppose.
In actual USPOL news, Supreme Court upheld ban on people convicted/having a restraining order due to DV owning weapons. So yay?
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This argument is strange. Look, every human being at its core has a little voice that is deeply racist and sexist. We are programmed to be afraid or at least aware of the uncommon. The real question is how we deal with that voice. If we quickly realize that this concept popping up in our head is problematic and don't act on it, we are good. If our brain constantly bombards us with lynching coloured people and we don't act on it, we are closeted bigots. If we prefer Rammstein over nightwish we are not sexist but maybe misogynist for looking at this band and thinking, they are not abhorrent assholes, I can continue to listen. And if my upbringing in Germany has led to having sexual fantasies mostly about white woman because during my adolescence I had no coloured girl to think about in that way, my behavior on dating sites will not include coloured women the same way as whites. Doesn't mean I am racist.
Society has come a great way to identify the difference between harmless bias, problematic prejudice and racism. Most people understand where the lines are and that not all decisions for or against a person are based on racism or sexism. Don't act as if you found the smoking gun on "sjw" because they prefer to be touched inside their body by a person they are not attracted to...
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On June 22 2024 07:03 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 18:33 EnDeR_ wrote:
There are two levels to this:
Does something fit the definition of prejudice?
That's binary.
Is it okay?
That's not binary.
It might be perfectly okay to prefer a female doctor over a male one in a climate where many male doctors have been found to abuse their position of power to commit a heinous crime. It's still prejudice to make that choice purely on the basis of gender. As a person working in healthcare and having had classes on the subject. Actually, that would not be fine because it's the same as saying you don't want a black doctor because of X reason. No way male doctors are involved in whatever crime you have conjured up enough to warrant that decision. However it's perfectly fine to not choose a male doctor if it makes you feel uncomfortable for either personal, cultural or religious reasons. Hell it's perfectly fine (honestly preferable) to chose another doctor if you don't mesh with their personality. It's also fine to not want a doctor with an accent if you are old and have poor hearing and previous bad experience with not understanding them. Healthcare is not just about treatment it's also about patient confort and practical, personal, cultural and religious reasons are all valid reasons for choosing your caregiver. However you need to accept that your treatment might suffer for it. If you can't be treated by a male doctor and no one else is avalible that's your choice and you might be fucked because of it. But being racists or misogynistic is not a valid reason for picking a caregiver. In practice if you are not also dumb as fuck and say that part out loud it would never be an issue.
“Practical, personal, cultural and religious reasons are all valid for choosing your caregiver”
“Being racist or misogynistic is not a valid reason”
Seeing as those two positions are incongruous, which of them do you actually advocate for?
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"I want a male doctor because I don't think a women can do the job" = bad
"I feel more comfortable with a male/female doctor looking at my reproductive organs" = ok
It really isn't difficult.
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On June 22 2024 18:56 Gorsameth wrote:
"I want a male doctor because I don't think a women can do the job" = bad
"I feel more comfortable with a male/female doctor looking at my reproductive organs" = ok
It really isn't difficult.
100% this.
If the patient has problem with their doctor because they think race, sex or sexuality makes them a worse doctor or person that's a problem.
If the patient have think that the doctor is fine but they themselves have an issue that makes them uncomfortable or unable to recive care because of an attribute that the doctor has it's fine.
Remember that medical care is offered and has to be accepted. There are religious people who will refuse blood transfusions even if it would kill them. There is no difference in refusing care from a doctor because your religion won't let you be treated by the opposite gender.
Or perhaps you are a rape victim and get panic attacks when a male doctor examine you.
It's not discrimination because the problem isn't how they view the doctor.
And while religion or cultural practices can certainly innately sexist the restrictions it places on people doesn't automatically make the decisions of the individual wrong because it's not against the caregiver.
This doesn't mean that healthcare has to accommodate a patients view. If there is only one doctor avalible your choice is to accept that or decline care.
But if there are several options available we do try to accommodate reasonable requests.
It's really no different from a patient calling in an asking for X because they have recommendations from a friend. You offer Y because X is on vacation but they prefer to wait. No one takes that personally.
I have had people decline care from me because I'm male and of course other more mundane things like not wanting to shake my hand. I don't care about it at all. Often they feel very bad about it and apologise for not wanting to shake your hand (pre-covid these days everyone are confused). 😀
I cared a little when I was younger and people wanted an older person (ie more experienced) because they honestly can't judge who is good or not.
And I got pissed when people disrespected friends because they were young and females or because of their skin colour. You can kindly fuck off to another clinic if you voice those kind of views.
Which happened from time to time but the receptionists were good at handling it since it's often when people call in.
TL;DR: It's not a problem and you don't get upset when it's about them and not about you.
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EPT
