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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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To clarify, in context of the attack on the aid helpers, thats most likely a war crime and they should get punished for it and imho, if true, is reason enough to delay/stop the sale.
Linking this to genocide to score some browny points is what hits my nerves.
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On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways  It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide.
What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be.
What exactly do you want us to do?
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Those were the same people supporting the US stand by and do nothing while letting Russia take Ukraine, and letting China take Taiwan, because "America should mind it's own business." By the same reasoning, they should have no problems letting Israel, another nuclear armed country, take Gaza right? It's no surprise their non-interventionist attitude (which proves North Korea was right all this time btw) completely evaporated once their own people are getting killed (or supporting whatever oppressed group that will earn them the most PR brownie points at the time).
Do you want America to have an interventionist foreign policy or not? Make up your fucking minds. You didn't care when other people, unrelated to you and on the other side of the planet, were being genocided on a much larger scale for just trying to live their lives, because "America should mind it's own business." Now you cry about America should do something because "your" people are getting killed, because a raging neighbor with too much power they have no business holding are bullying their victims into submission.
Doesn't feel good now that it's being done to your kind, does it? Where was your bleeding heart before all this? This is why a lot of people and I can't even take these fucking hypocrite clowns seriously lol
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@Velr: I typically use "ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign" personally, I mention genocide because that's what the majority of Biden 2020 voters think Israel is doing with Biden's help.
On April 03 2024 21:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2024 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:It's going to be far too little, far too late, but Biden/Democrats have gotta stop this deal. There is simply no excuse not to. The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.
The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.
The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.
...
But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections. www.cnn.comWhen I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel. That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. While I think it's absolutely preposterous to claim that Biden is as much of a fascist as Trump is, I definitely am not a fan of these fighter jets and munitions kits being given to Israel.
Not claiming he is. No one should be a fan of arming an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign.
What I'm saying is if people that ostensibly oppose Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign are sincere, they have to do something to stop it, not just point to "lesser evilism" wait until election day and claim they don't like that they are aiding and abetting what they themselves call genocide in the meantime.
Typically Democrats would say "oh we want to X, but the way our governments set up, Republicans won't let us!" but that doesn't apply here. Democrats have all the power they need to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but even 10's of thousands of dead women and children later, they refuse to stop.
On April 04 2024 00:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide. + Show Spoiler +What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be. What exactly do you want us to do?
Well...
When I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel.
That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. Do you need me to explain what organized civil disobedience means?
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On April 04 2024 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote:@Velr: I typically use "ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign" personally, I mention genocide because that's what the majority of Biden 2020 voters think Israel is doing with Biden's help. Show nested quote +On April 03 2024 21:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 03 2024 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:It's going to be far too little, far too late, but Biden/Democrats have gotta stop this deal. There is simply no excuse not to. The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.
The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.
The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.
...
But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections. www.cnn.comWhen I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel. That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. While I think it's absolutely preposterous to claim that Biden is as much of a fascist as Trump is, I definitely am not a fan of these fighter jets and munitions kits being given to Israel. Not claiming he is. No one should be a fan of arming an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. What I'm saying is if people that ostensibly oppose Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign are sincere, they have to do something to stop it, not just point to "lesser evilism" wait until election day and claim they don't like that they are aiding and abetting what they themselves call genocide in the meantime. Typically Democrats would say "oh we want to X, but the way our governments set up, Republicans won't let us!" but that doesn't apply here. Democrats have all the power they need to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but even 10's of thousands of dead women and children later, they refuse to stop. Show nested quote +On April 04 2024 00:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide. + Show Spoiler +What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be. What exactly do you want us to do? Well... Show nested quote +When I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel.
That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. Do you need me to explain what organized civil disobedience means?
I don't need to be explained what civil disobedience is, but I do need you to explain to me why you think talking about civil disobedience over Palestine is relevant in a conversation about the US Presidential elections. Those are separate conversations.
You being fatalistic about how the election doesn't matter since neither Presidential nominee is as against the war as you want them to be, isn't helpful to anybody.
From an election standpoint, the Palestine issue is VERY simple. Donald Trump is very PRO-Netanyahu. Joe Biden is much less so and only Biden is facing any kind of pressure from his party on this issue in the direction you want. That's the end of the conversation when it comes to Palestine in the Presidential elections.
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On April 04 2024 01:29 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2024 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote:@Velr: I typically use "ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign" personally, I mention genocide because that's what the majority of Biden 2020 voters think Israel is doing with Biden's help. On April 03 2024 21:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 03 2024 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:It's going to be far too little, far too late, but Biden/Democrats have gotta stop this deal. There is simply no excuse not to. The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.
The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.
The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.
...
But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections. www.cnn.comWhen I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel. That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. While I think it's absolutely preposterous to claim that Biden is as much of a fascist as Trump is, I definitely am not a fan of these fighter jets and munitions kits being given to Israel. Not claiming he is. No one should be a fan of arming an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. What I'm saying is if people that ostensibly oppose Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign are sincere, they have to do something to stop it, not just point to "lesser evilism" wait until election day and claim they don't like that they are aiding and abetting what they themselves call genocide in the meantime. Typically Democrats would say "oh we want to X, but the way our governments set up, Republicans won't let us!" but that doesn't apply here. Democrats have all the power they need to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but even 10's of thousands of dead women and children later, they refuse to stop. On April 04 2024 00:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide. + Show Spoiler +What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be. What exactly do you want us to do? Well... When I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel.
That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. Do you need me to explain what organized civil disobedience means? I don't need to be explained what civil disobedience is + Show Spoiler +
, but I do need you to explain to me why you think talking about civil disobedience over Palestine is relevant in a conversation about the US Presidential elections. Those are separate conversations.
You being fatalistic about how the election doesn't matter since neither Presidential nominee is as against the war as you want them to be, isn't helpful to anybody.
From an election standpoint, the Palestine issue is VERY simple. Donald Trump is very PRO-Netanyahu. Joe Biden is much less so and only Biden is facing any kind of pressure from his party on this issue in the direction you want. That's the end of the conversation when it comes to Palestine in the Presidential elections.
So you knew what I wanted you to do...?
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On April 04 2024 01:36 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2024 01:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 04 2024 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote:@Velr: I typically use "ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign" personally, I mention genocide because that's what the majority of Biden 2020 voters think Israel is doing with Biden's help. On April 03 2024 21:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 03 2024 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:It's going to be far too little, far too late, but Biden/Democrats have gotta stop this deal. There is simply no excuse not to. The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.
The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.
The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.
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But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections. www.cnn.comWhen I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel. That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. While I think it's absolutely preposterous to claim that Biden is as much of a fascist as Trump is, I definitely am not a fan of these fighter jets and munitions kits being given to Israel. Not claiming he is. No one should be a fan of arming an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. What I'm saying is if people that ostensibly oppose Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign are sincere, they have to do something to stop it, not just point to "lesser evilism" wait until election day and claim they don't like that they are aiding and abetting what they themselves call genocide in the meantime. Typically Democrats would say "oh we want to X, but the way our governments set up, Republicans won't let us!" but that doesn't apply here. Democrats have all the power they need to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but even 10's of thousands of dead women and children later, they refuse to stop. On April 04 2024 00:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide. + Show Spoiler +What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be. What exactly do you want us to do? Well... When I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel.
That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. Do you need me to explain what organized civil disobedience means? I don't need to be explained what civil disobedience is + Show Spoiler +
, but I do need you to explain to me why you think talking about civil disobedience over Palestine is relevant in a conversation about the US Presidential elections. Those are separate conversations.
You being fatalistic about how the election doesn't matter since neither Presidential nominee is as against the war as you want them to be, isn't helpful to anybody.
From an election standpoint, the Palestine issue is VERY simple. Donald Trump is very PRO-Netanyahu. Joe Biden is much less so and only Biden is facing any kind of pressure from his party on this issue in the direction you want. That's the end of the conversation when it comes to Palestine in the Presidential elections.
So you knew what I wanted you to do...?
No I didn't. You bounce around constantly so much that I don't know what you actually want people to do seriously, and what you are just ranting about from an idealistic point of view.
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On April 04 2024 01:58 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2024 01:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 04 2024 01:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 04 2024 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote:@Velr: I typically use "ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign" personally, I mention genocide because that's what the majority of Biden 2020 voters think Israel is doing with Biden's help. On April 03 2024 21:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 03 2024 11:25 GreenHorizons wrote:It's going to be far too little, far too late, but Biden/Democrats have gotta stop this deal. There is simply no excuse not to. The Biden administration is close to approving the sale of as many as 50 American-made F-15 fighter jets to Israel, in a deal expected to be worth more than $18 billion, according to three people familiar with the matter.
The transaction, which would amount to the largest US foreign military sale to Israel since the country went to war with Hamas on October 7, comes as the administration is also expected to notify Congress soon of a large new sale of precision-guided munitions kits to Israel, the people said.
The new sales of some of the US’ most sophisticated weaponry underscore the extent to which the US continues to support Israel militarily, even as Biden administration officials criticize Israel’s operations in Gaza, which have killed more than 32,000 Palestinians since October, according to the Gaza ministry of health.
...
But Sen. Ben Cardin, the Democratic chairman of the committee, as well as the Democratic ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, Rep. Greg Meeks, can still hold up the sale if they raise objections. www.cnn.comWhen I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel. That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. While I think it's absolutely preposterous to claim that Biden is as much of a fascist as Trump is, I definitely am not a fan of these fighter jets and munitions kits being given to Israel. Not claiming he is. No one should be a fan of arming an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. What I'm saying is if people that ostensibly oppose Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign are sincere, they have to do something to stop it, not just point to "lesser evilism" wait until election day and claim they don't like that they are aiding and abetting what they themselves call genocide in the meantime. Typically Democrats would say "oh we want to X, but the way our governments set up, Republicans won't let us!" but that doesn't apply here. Democrats have all the power they need to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but even 10's of thousands of dead women and children later, they refuse to stop. On April 04 2024 00:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 31 2024 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 06:19 Sadist wrote:On March 31 2024 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 31 2024 05:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 31 2024 05:18 Introvert wrote:Again we are guessing about who, exactly, he would pardon. I will give you this much though: Trump has said enough to assume he would pardon at least some of the people convicted of crimes in J6. All are entitled to take that information into account when they vote, though maybe not many will As for my definition, there is also nuance in how to define a position with the knowledge you may have to compromise which is important because it's something voters take it their calculations, I expect. But it's a good start! The insistence goes both ways It appears to matter because people keep telling me that's the party position and that i should acknowledge this. I don't know how many people are voting for him on that proposition though, I think most Republican voters are supporting him because they like the job he did as president. But that's haggling, I am happy to restate my disagreement and call it a day. + Show Spoiler +That’s all very lawyerly. “Introvert hereafter acknowledges that Donald Trump can be assumed to intend to pardon a nonzero number of defendants associated with the event commonly referred to as January 6th, although no assumptions can be made about the number or character of those pardoned, and the possibility that Mr. Trump would merely be attempting to rectify a miscarriage of justice cannot be eliminated.”
Sure, you can say that. Or you can factor in a single thing we’ve learned about this guy’s character in the last, well, I’ll just say 8 years to reduce the cognitive load. I don’t doubt he’ll exclude some of them from his pardon – many J6ers made “I was deceived by the president” central to their legal defenses. He’s all about loyalty, after all.
See what I mean about perpetually defending his flank even as you insist you’re not on his side? I simply don’t believe you would have the same extreme commitment to benefit of the doubt and blindness to dangerous precedents and slippery slopes if it were a Democrat. If Biden were pardoning, say, someone who rumors suggested might testify against Hunter Biden for immunity, Republicans would drown us all in conspiracy and innuendo, and I’m confident you wouldn’t leap to Biden’s defense. In all likelihood you’d join the chorus, maybe in some vague noncommittal way like “I don’t know whether to believe all the conspiracies but there’s certainly a lot of smoke.”
But anyway, I think I’ve got it. You would consider pardoning people that committed felonies on behalf of the president’s efforts to overthrow an election, you know, faux pas. Vaguely distasteful. But it’s certainly low salience, and you see no reason to think there’s any bad precedents or slippery slopes going on. And you certainly see no reason anybody should care enough to vote against him for it. Hopefully this exercise also helps people understand why I see Biden supporters and genocide (their word) in a similar way. Or as Sadist put it: Anyone voting for him, shilling for him, making bad faith arguments is complicit to his bullshit. Again, throwing stones from a reliably blue state. Not everyone is that lucky. I am not falling for the bait as the line always moves. There will be pikachu looks on all these peoples faces if Trump wins It's not "lucky" to have an electoral system that obviates your vote. Particularly when it means a guy supporting genocide wins regardless. But rest assured it's not bait or moving the goalposts. Just because genocide is especially poignant compared to the stuff they've done this with for decades doesn't mean people to their left have forgotten about all the other reasons they don't support someone like Biden. Genocide was just hopefully a line for Biden supporters with a conscience. That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue. Turns out nope, they'll go along to get along like Republicans, even in the face of genocide. + Show Spoiler +What exactly do you want US to do about this? Would I love it if the Democrats nominated someone other than Joe Biden? Hell yea I would, I only voted for him in the first place to keep Donald Trump from getting a second term, I'm voting for him again for the same reason. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2020 and Joe Biden won that primary because of states other than mine.
Nothing I can do in this election cycle will change the outcome that the Democrats are going to nominate Joe Biden. There is literally zero that I or anybody in this election can do to change that.
So my ONLY realistic options are to pick between Biden and Trump. If I vote for a third party candidate that's a wasted vote that will only end up helping Trump get elected. I don't like the fact that is true, but it IS a fact. It's how our election system is and there's literally nothing I can do to change that as a single voter in California.
So I ask again. What exactly do you want us to do about this right now? We can't change the outcome of the primary and get another Democrat as the nominee, we can't elect a third party candidate and the only other alternative from the Republicans will be worse on this issue than Biden will be. What exactly do you want us to do? Well... When I talk about organized civil disobedience and not reflexively relying on "lesser evilism" rationalizations, this is what I'm talking about. I mean Biden 2020 voters demanding Democrats and Biden do something like not approve more weapons for Israel to massacre civilians in what those same voters call a genocide as it appears they planned to do up until (and perhaps despite) this particular recent atrocity by Israel.
That Democrats are struggling to stop themselves from aiding and abetting what they themselves identify as genocide while it's completely within their power to do so, is just the kind of precedent setting that is ensuring the US will fall to fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out. Do you need me to explain what organized civil disobedience means? I don't need to be explained what civil disobedience is + Show Spoiler +
, but I do need you to explain to me why you think talking about civil disobedience over Palestine is relevant in a conversation about the US Presidential elections. Those are separate conversations.
You being fatalistic about how the election doesn't matter since neither Presidential nominee is as against the war as you want them to be, isn't helpful to anybody.
From an election standpoint, the Palestine issue is VERY simple. Donald Trump is very PRO-Netanyahu. Joe Biden is much less so and only Biden is facing any kind of pressure from his party on this issue in the direction you want. That's the end of the conversation when it comes to Palestine in the Presidential elections.
So you knew what I wanted you to do...? No I didn't. You bounce around constantly so much that I don't know what you actually want people to do seriously, and what you are just ranting about from an idealistic point of view.
It was literally in the post you were replying to
That they would demand he stop supporting genocide through organized acts of civil disobedience to disrupt his ability to continue.
So...?
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Americans can't be bothered with mass civil disobedience to stop kindergarden children from getting shot in school in their neighbourhood.
You expect them to give a shit about people dying half the world away?
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Northern Ireland26441 Posts
On April 04 2024 00:37 riotjune wrote:
Those were the same people supporting the US stand by and do nothing while letting Russia take Ukraine, and letting China take Taiwan, because "America should mind it's own business." By the same reasoning, they should have no problems letting Israel, another nuclear armed country, take Gaza right? It's no surprise their non-interventionist attitude (which proves North Korea was right all this time btw) completely evaporated once their own people are getting killed (or supporting whatever oppressed group that will earn them the most PR brownie points at the time).
Do you want America to have an interventionist foreign policy or not? Make up your fucking minds. You didn't care when other people, unrelated to you and on the other side of the planet, were being genocided on a much larger scale for just trying to live their lives, because "America should mind it's own business." Now you cry about America should do something because "your" people are getting killed, because a raging neighbor with too much power they have no business holding are bullying their victims into submission.
Doesn't feel good now that it's being done to your kind, does it? Where was your bleeding heart before all this? This is why a lot of people and I can't even take these fucking hypocrite clowns seriously lol
Everyone’s a hypocrite if they’re a straw man to start with.
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On April 04 2024 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:
Americans can't be bothered with mass civil disobedience to stop kindergarden children from getting shot in school in their neighbourhood.
You expect them to give a shit about people dying half the world away?
Americans generally? Of course not. Democrats, ostensible "progressives", "leftists" and so on? Damn right! Or they could at least drop the act and embrace your assertion that they don't care about Palestinians or aiding and abetting Israel's genocide of them, or kindergartners getting shot at school. Instead of those folks reflexively relying on inapplicable "lesser evilism" electoralism rationalizations to temper their cognitive dissonance.
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Northern Ireland26441 Posts
On April 05 2024 11:33 JimmiC wrote:Pretty darn big difference in the Republicans response to the aid workers deaths. Show nested quote +US House Speaker Mike Johnson criticized President Joe Biden following Biden's warning to Israel to take steps to address the humanitarian crisis in Gaza or face consequences.
"The president’s ultimatums should be going to Hamas, not Israel," Johnson said in a post on X.
"Hamas resisted a ceasefire, brought about needless bloodshed, and refuses to release Israeli and American hostages. Biden should not undercut our ally amidst an existential threat by conditioning our support," he continued.
Sounds remarkably like you on the topic lad
User was warned for this post
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Yesterday, there was an earthquake here in New Jersey... around a 4.7-4.8, which is pretty significant for my state. And then there was an additional tremor or two a few hours later, near Trump's Bedminister golf course (I live about a half hour away from there).
On April 8th, there will be a total solar eclipse.
And, of course, we get nonsense like this:
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Northern Ireland26441 Posts
On April 06 2024 22:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Yesterday, there was an earthquake here in New Jersey... around a 4.7-4.8, which is pretty significant for my state. And then there was an additional tremor or two a few hours later, near Trump's Bedminister golf course (I live about a half hour away from there). On April 8th, there will be a total solar eclipse. And, of course, we get nonsense like this: https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1776282144416972941
I love the confidence that God is mad but definitely, certainly not at her or her ilk.
My mind still boggles that this is an elected official, I mean we’ve our share of clowns over here but nothing remotely equivalent.
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Huh, I thought she was going to blame the earthquake on immigrants like she does with everything else, just like with the Key Bridge collapse.
After 2016 all the clowns came out of the woodwork and copied Trump to get elected after they realized it's just that easy because most voters are dumb. It's not just the United States, the sickness has already spread all over the world (some people argue that it all started with Boris Johnson's Brexit, aka Patient Zero, and Trump copied him). And who says insanity isn't contagious? Clinical psychologists and psychiatrists might as well agree that it does!
Marjorie looks like a Twitch streamer who resorts to rage-baiting and intentionally creates drama in order to remain relevant.
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EPT
