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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Northern Ireland25388 Posts
On February 08 2024 21:14 Gorsameth wrote:
"We" aren't willing to give up anything to save the planet that we and our children live on. The notion that people will give up something to help out people dying half the world away just doesn't fit.
I disagree, I think people are unwilling to if they perceive their actions as ultimately ineffectual, or that others aren’t bothering.
If you wanna look how (most) people can adjust to pretty radical change, look at COVID. It absolutely can happen. Or the World Wars or whatever
The issue with climate change I guess is it’s just some thing that will happen down the line versus a pertinent problem that needs change ASAP, and pretty big change.
I’ll pay some tax, or additional monies on whatever if we’re actually doing something to tackle it, I’d welcome it. But if you’re not actually doing anything meaningful I’ll resent performative shite
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On February 08 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 21:14 Gorsameth wrote:
"We" aren't willing to give up anything to save the planet that we and our children live on. The notion that people will give up something to help out people dying half the world away just doesn't fit.
I disagree, I think people are unwilling to if they perceive their actions as ultimately ineffectual, or that others aren’t bothering. If you wanna look how (most) people can adjust to pretty radical change, look at COVID. It absolutely can happen. Or the World Wars or whatever The issue with climate change I guess is it’s just some thing that will happen down the line versus a pertinent problem that needs change ASAP, and pretty big change. I’ll pay some tax, or additional monies on whatever if we’re actually doing something to tackle it, I’d welcome it. But if you’re not actually doing anything meaningful I’ll resent performative shite Absolutely, the lack of visible benefit or clear danger is a major issue but there is no visible benefit in boycotting China to perhaps save some Uyghur you will never meet either.
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As a New Jerseyan, I've started researching my state's upcoming US Senate election.
New Jersey Senate Race 2024 – Primary on June 4, 2024 – General Election on Nov. 5, 2024
Polling Data: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/senate/2024/new-jersey/
Election Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_Senate_election_in_New_Jersey
Total Raised and Spent: https://www.opensecrets.org/races/summary?cycle=2016&id=NJS1
3 excellent candidates as alternatives to Democrat Bob Menendez:
1. Andy Kim – US Senate website (still new/blank as of 2/8/24): https://www.andykim.com/
Views on key issues (economy, drugs, military, healthcare, environment, etc.): https://kim.house.gov/issues
Voting record as US Rep: https://kim.house.gov/about/votes-and-legislation
Sponsored legislation: https://www.congress.gov/member/andy-kim/K000394?q={"sponsorship":"sponsored"}
Cosponsored legislation: https://www.congress.gov/member/andy-kim/K000394?q={"sponsorship":"cosponsored"}
His Wiki/bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Kim_(politician)
Political experience: Currently a congressman in the US House of Representatives;
Democratic background, endorsed by Obama and Biden and NJ governor Phil Murphy for US Representative.
2. Lawrence (“Larry”) Hamm – US Senate website as of 2/8/24: https://www.lawrencehamm4senate.info/
People’s Organization for Progress info: https://issuu.com/thepositivecommunty/docs/tpc_march_2020/s/10340552
His Wiki/bio: https://keywiki.org/Larry_Hamm (very grass roots, pro-revolution, pro-socialism, even left of Bernie).
Political experience: State chairman of NJ Bernie Sanders campaign, founder of People’s Organization for Progress;
His Senate website has a comprehensive list of progressive, pro-Bernie, left-wing stances (Medicare For All, free college, slavery reparations, increase minimum wage to $17/hour, stronger union rights, gun control, stop climate change, etc.).
3. Patricia Campos-Medina – US Senate website as of 2/8/24: https://patricia4senate.com/
Her bio and “Activista Rise Up” progressive movement: https://patriciacamposmedina.com/
Political experience: Union/Community organizer, national/state campaign leader, educator;
Across her two websites, she compiles a list of progressive platforms she champions: unions, worker safety/rights, collective bargaining, healthcare, women’s equal pay, reproductive rights, immigration, diversity, economic/racial justice.
I’d be happy if any of the above candidates became our next US Senator from New Jersey. However, there is one more candidate that needs to be mentioned, and she’s the only one who I don’t support as passionately as the above three:
Tammy Murphy – US Senate website (still new/blank as of 2/8/24): https://tammymurphyforsenate.com/
Her Wiki/bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Murphy
Political experience: None (First Lady to NJ governor Phil Murphy – allegations of favoritism/nepotism);
Voted Republican until 2014 (not necessarily disqualifying, but she needs to clarify her new stances on core issues).
Her Wiki says she now is more of a Democrat “on issues such as abortion, gun control, and the environment”, and she has mixed reviews regarding her effectiveness in highlighting and improving racial disparities in maternal mortality. Tammy Murphy’s liberal/progressive background is non-existent compared to Kim, Hamm, and Campos-Medina.
Other candidates (Kevin Cupples, Patrick Merrill, etc.) either have no political experience or no serious campaign.
Early polls are showing that of the three candidates I like, Andy Kim currently has the best chance to win the election.
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The supreme court looks like it will strike down Colorado's ruling and rule that Trump cannot be barred from the ballot.
Even Kagan and Jackson appeared to believe that states can't make that decision.
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Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies.
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I don't think anyone had any doubts that republican held SCOTUS will find in favor of Trump...
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On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies.
I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain.
Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age.
I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain.
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On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain.
Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me.
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On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me.
The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take.
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The difference is they didnt find enough evidence to charge him with anything, while Trump has active federal case for similiar (although much larger in scale) conduct.
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On February 09 2024 17:57 Silvanel wrote:
I don't think anyone had any doubts that republican held SCOTUS will find in favor of Trump...
Always dangerous to take too much from oral argument, but it sounded like the ruling could be 8-1 if not 9-0. Probably going to get at least 1-2 dem appointees. Maybe not, but pretty much everyone was quite harsh with the primary lawyer for disqualification. And with good reason
Edit: it wasn't so much that they didn't find evidence of wrong doing by Biden, but moreso thought they couldn't prove it to a sympathetic jury beyond a reasonable doubt. We can look at his conduct and decide for ourselves how bad it was and what type of double standards are being applied
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On February 09 2024 19:02 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me. The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take.
That's not what I wrote. "Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did" is what I wrote, and that's a fact. You wrote that I said "Biden didn't do illegal things", which is not true. Biden did do some illegal things: He didn't securely store all his classified documents, and he shared classified information with his ghostwriter (who did not have clearance). Trump did so much more (which Biden didn't do), so they're not a fair comparison. Anyways, let's move past the semantics and on to the substance:
The report reveals that there's a lot more context to Biden's situation, which explains why he won't be charged (or else you'd need to charge many previous presidents and vice presidents, since they generally do the same things Biden did) and why Trump's situation is uniquely bad:
- The report states that Biden did not ignore or resist FBI communication or warrants, he complied and was transparent with searches, and he cooperated with the overall investigation (very different from Trump).
- The quantity and sensitivity of the classified content was not considered sufficiently extreme enough to investigate further (very different from Trump).
- Biden never lied about declassifying information as a way to try to dodge accountability (very different from Trump).
- Biden never tried to undermine the investigation in the public eye, such as calling it a witch hunt or persecution (very different from Trump).
- The report specifically acknowledges that Reagan had done what Biden did, with a precedent that this level of negligence does not rise to the level of criminality to warrant any charges, and here is an article explaining how what Biden did is essentially par for the course (except for Trump's outlier): https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archives
In other words, Biden illegally mishandled classified information, and a thorough investigation concluded that his level of mishandling is considered typical enough for a vice president or president to be excused (as opposed to Trump's extreme level of mishandling classified information). And that's why the report's final conclusion was "we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."
Also, while the report does mention that Biden presents himself as "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" - and that's the type of remark that will definitely circulate - it's unfair for anyone to suggest that he (or even a younger person) should be able to recollect every single moment from informal conversations 5+ years ago. He was able to recall most relevant details, as shown in the report, and he definitely wasn't the only one interviewed who had imperfect memory, as the report also clearly lays out. Also, those occasional remarks are a very small part of the entire report.
For anyone interested, this is the report: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024.pdf
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The report also doesn't say that they had enough evidence they specifically say that they didn't have enough evidence. It was a Trump appointee that included some pretty out of pocket shit like how he doesn't remember when his son died. It was a two day deposition for hours on topics that went back decades no one has perfect memory on that shit, let alone when you're in the middle of an international crisis that you need to focus on.
The most basic difference is that the FBI had to raid mar a lago for the documents that Biden just let them come whenever to look for. The idea that they're somehow the same is just silly guys please stop.
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On February 09 2024 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 19:02 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me. The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take. That's not what I wrote. "Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did" is what I wrote, and that's a fact. You wrote that I said "Biden didn't do illegal things", which is not true. Biden did do some illegal things: He didn't securely store all his classified documents, and he shared classified information with his ghostwriter (who did not have clearance). Trump did so much more (which Biden didn't do), so they're not a fair comparison. Anyways, let's move past the semantics and on to the substance: The report reveals that there's a lot more context to Biden's situation, which explains why he won't be charged (or else you'd need to charge many previous presidents and vice presidents, since they generally do the same things Biden did) and why Trump's situation is uniquely bad: - The report states that Biden did not ignore or resist FBI communication or warrants, he complied and was transparent with searches, and he cooperated with the overall investigation (very different from Trump). - The quantity and sensitivity of the classified content was not considered sufficiently extreme enough to investigate further (very different from Trump). - Biden never lied about declassifying information as a way to try to dodge accountability (very different from Trump). - Biden never tried to undermine the investigation in the public eye, such as calling it a witch hunt or persecution (very different from Trump). - The report specifically acknowledges that Reagan had done what Biden did, with a precedent that this level of negligence does not rise to the level of criminality to warrant any charges, and here is an article explaining how what Biden did is essentially par for the course (except for Trump's outlier): https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archivesIn other words, Biden illegally mishandled classified information, and a thorough investigation concluded that his level of mishandling is considered typical enough for a vice president or president to be excused (as opposed to Trump's extreme level of mishandling classified information). And that's why the report's final conclusion was "we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." Also, while the report does mention that Biden presents himself as "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" - and that's the type of remark that will definitely circulate - it's unfair for anyone to suggest that he (or even a younger person) should be able to recollect every single moment from informal conversations 5+ years ago. He was able to recall most relevant details, as shown in the report, and he definitely wasn't the only one interviewed who had imperfect memory, as the report also clearly lays out. Also, those occasional remarks are a very small part of the entire report. For anyone interested, this is the report: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024.pdf
A more accurate statement then would be “Biden only did some of the illegal shit Trump did.”
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On February 10 2024 07:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 19:02 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me. The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take. That's not what I wrote. "Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did" is what I wrote, and that's a fact. You wrote that I said "Biden didn't do illegal things", which is not true. Biden did do some illegal things: He didn't securely store all his classified documents, and he shared classified information with his ghostwriter (who did not have clearance). Trump did so much more (which Biden didn't do), so they're not a fair comparison. Anyways, let's move past the semantics and on to the substance: The report reveals that there's a lot more context to Biden's situation, which explains why he won't be charged (or else you'd need to charge many previous presidents and vice presidents, since they generally do the same things Biden did) and why Trump's situation is uniquely bad: - The report states that Biden did not ignore or resist FBI communication or warrants, he complied and was transparent with searches, and he cooperated with the overall investigation (very different from Trump). - The quantity and sensitivity of the classified content was not considered sufficiently extreme enough to investigate further (very different from Trump). - Biden never lied about declassifying information as a way to try to dodge accountability (very different from Trump). - Biden never tried to undermine the investigation in the public eye, such as calling it a witch hunt or persecution (very different from Trump). - The report specifically acknowledges that Reagan had done what Biden did, with a precedent that this level of negligence does not rise to the level of criminality to warrant any charges, and here is an article explaining how what Biden did is essentially par for the course (except for Trump's outlier): https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archivesIn other words, Biden illegally mishandled classified information, and a thorough investigation concluded that his level of mishandling is considered typical enough for a vice president or president to be excused (as opposed to Trump's extreme level of mishandling classified information). And that's why the report's final conclusion was "we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." Also, while the report does mention that Biden presents himself as "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" - and that's the type of remark that will definitely circulate - it's unfair for anyone to suggest that he (or even a younger person) should be able to recollect every single moment from informal conversations 5+ years ago. He was able to recall most relevant details, as shown in the report, and he definitely wasn't the only one interviewed who had imperfect memory, as the report also clearly lays out. Also, those occasional remarks are a very small part of the entire report. For anyone interested, this is the report: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024.pdf A more accurate statement then would be “Biden only did some of the illegal shit Trump did.”
Yeah, except worse, and then he double down, and tripled down, and obstructed the investigation and refused to cooperate at every turn.
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United States42701 Posts
Trump literally made them come and perform a search to get the documents back. He repeatedly lied and hid the documents. He directed his lawyers to lie on his behalf. It’s almost like he wanted them to have to seize the docs, he deliberately prevented any other resolution.
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On February 10 2024 07:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2024 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 19:02 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me. The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take. That's not what I wrote. "Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did" is what I wrote, and that's a fact. You wrote that I said "Biden didn't do illegal things", which is not true. Biden did do some illegal things: He didn't securely store all his classified documents, and he shared classified information with his ghostwriter (who did not have clearance). Trump did so much more (which Biden didn't do), so they're not a fair comparison. Anyways, let's move past the semantics and on to the substance: The report reveals that there's a lot more context to Biden's situation, which explains why he won't be charged (or else you'd need to charge many previous presidents and vice presidents, since they generally do the same things Biden did) and why Trump's situation is uniquely bad: - The report states that Biden did not ignore or resist FBI communication or warrants, he complied and was transparent with searches, and he cooperated with the overall investigation (very different from Trump). - The quantity and sensitivity of the classified content was not considered sufficiently extreme enough to investigate further (very different from Trump). - Biden never lied about declassifying information as a way to try to dodge accountability (very different from Trump). - Biden never tried to undermine the investigation in the public eye, such as calling it a witch hunt or persecution (very different from Trump). - The report specifically acknowledges that Reagan had done what Biden did, with a precedent that this level of negligence does not rise to the level of criminality to warrant any charges, and here is an article explaining how what Biden did is essentially par for the course (except for Trump's outlier): https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archivesIn other words, Biden illegally mishandled classified information, and a thorough investigation concluded that his level of mishandling is considered typical enough for a vice president or president to be excused (as opposed to Trump's extreme level of mishandling classified information). And that's why the report's final conclusion was "we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." Also, while the report does mention that Biden presents himself as "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" - and that's the type of remark that will definitely circulate - it's unfair for anyone to suggest that he (or even a younger person) should be able to recollect every single moment from informal conversations 5+ years ago. He was able to recall most relevant details, as shown in the report, and he definitely wasn't the only one interviewed who had imperfect memory, as the report also clearly lays out. Also, those occasional remarks are a very small part of the entire report. For anyone interested, this is the report: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024.pdf A more accurate statement then would be “Biden only did some of the illegal shit Trump did.”
I would love to read a substantive response about my post, if you have a chance to write one.
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On February 10 2024 08:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2024 07:48 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2024 23:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 19:02 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2024 18:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 09 2024 18:12 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 09 2024 12:34 Introvert wrote:
Meanwhile, Special Counsel Robert Hur's report on Biden's improper handling of classified documents came out. Among the reasons he declined to charge is because he thought Biden would play up the sympathetic old man defense, and that it might work because Biden has serious mental acuity issues, regularly forgetting basic things like when he was Vice President. Today when talking about the report he called Sisi, the president of Egypt, the President of Mexico. This follows on after recently saying both that he had spoken Helmut Kohl and Mitterrand in the past few years. I've been pointing out Biden's mental decline is obvious but it's still getting worse. Just overall a good day for Trump.
Maybe he can win again, I wonder what it's like to live a life blessed with having all the worst, least scrupulous, and most incompetent people as your enemies. I mean, the election is likely to be between the well-meaning grandpa that is trying to make things better for the American people and the nasty reactionary grandpa that only wants to become president for personal gain. Neither of them is anywhere near their prime, they both confuse other heads of state/political opponents, they both give shitty, meandering speeches and neither of them should be anywhere near having this amount of responsibility at their age. I'll take the well-meaning, trying-his-best grandpa over the reactionary, nasty grandpa that is only in it for personal gain. Agreed. Also, spinning the fact that Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did as "Just overall a good day for Trump" is bizarre to me. The report found that Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified documents while he was a private citizen. They found he shared classified documents with the ghostwriter of his novel which I presume does not have the necessary credentials to access classified documents. Your interpretation that "Biden didn't do illegal things" here is bizarre, though I suspect you'll find hearty agreement with Trump's lawyers for that take. That's not what I wrote. "Biden didn't do the illegal things that Trump did" is what I wrote, and that's a fact. You wrote that I said "Biden didn't do illegal things", which is not true. Biden did do some illegal things: He didn't securely store all his classified documents, and he shared classified information with his ghostwriter (who did not have clearance). Trump did so much more (which Biden didn't do), so they're not a fair comparison. Anyways, let's move past the semantics and on to the substance: The report reveals that there's a lot more context to Biden's situation, which explains why he won't be charged (or else you'd need to charge many previous presidents and vice presidents, since they generally do the same things Biden did) and why Trump's situation is uniquely bad: - The report states that Biden did not ignore or resist FBI communication or warrants, he complied and was transparent with searches, and he cooperated with the overall investigation (very different from Trump). - The quantity and sensitivity of the classified content was not considered sufficiently extreme enough to investigate further (very different from Trump). - Biden never lied about declassifying information as a way to try to dodge accountability (very different from Trump). - Biden never tried to undermine the investigation in the public eye, such as calling it a witch hunt or persecution (very different from Trump). - The report specifically acknowledges that Reagan had done what Biden did, with a precedent that this level of negligence does not rise to the level of criminality to warrant any charges, and here is an article explaining how what Biden did is essentially par for the course (except for Trump's outlier): https://nypost.com/2023/05/17/every-president-since-reagan-has-mishandled-classified-documents-national-archivesIn other words, Biden illegally mishandled classified information, and a thorough investigation concluded that his level of mishandling is considered typical enough for a vice president or president to be excused (as opposed to Trump's extreme level of mishandling classified information). And that's why the report's final conclusion was "we conclude that the evidence does not establish Mr. Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." Also, while the report does mention that Biden presents himself as "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" - and that's the type of remark that will definitely circulate - it's unfair for anyone to suggest that he (or even a younger person) should be able to recollect every single moment from informal conversations 5+ years ago. He was able to recall most relevant details, as shown in the report, and he definitely wasn't the only one interviewed who had imperfect memory, as the report also clearly lays out. Also, those occasional remarks are a very small part of the entire report. For anyone interested, this is the report: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report-from-special-counsel-robert-k-hur-february-2024.pdf A more accurate statement then would be “Biden only did some of the illegal shit Trump did.” I would love to read a substantive response about my post, if you have a chance to write one.
Sounds like your argument is essentially both are guilty of the same crime of retaining and disclosing classified documents but Trump is also guilty of obstruction. These are two different crimes, not two elements of the same crime that need to be fulfilled so I’m not sure how that would be a difference maker. If two people stole a car and one pulled over when he was caught and the other led police on a high speed pursuit they would still both get charged for the first crime of stealing a car. Cooperating with authorities after committing a crime doesn’t magically make you not culpable for the crime.
We were having a discussion a few weeks ago and I was making the argument that there would probably be tremendous leeway given to not prosecute ex-Presidents for certain crimes. The general consensus of the thread was a more idealistic “everyone should be prosecuted for any crime they commit no matter how small and no matter how important they are.” Funny how quickly that energy got replaced with “Biden did illegal things but all the Presidents since Reagan also did the same so he shouldn’t be prosecuted for it.” You can’t abandon your principled stand when your guy is in the hot seat.
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EPT
