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Northern Ireland24909 Posts
@Blackjack It’s pretty obviously mostly due to cultural barriers being broken down and it being (relatively) considerably more tolerated than even a decade ago. I left school in 08 and nobody came out in my year of about 360 folks, even the obviously gay, whereas my mum still works there and says it’s pretty damn common for people to be openly gay from 13/14, and there’s even a few trans students
I’m unsure if you saw my allusions to something I read, I’ll try and find a source, one theory, albeit dealing with a subsection of a subsection is a disproportionate prevalence of reported dysphoria in young people who are on the autistic spectrum.
The theory offered there as to why that is is a cognitive dissonance between a rigid, rules-based mental disposition innate to the condition, and complexities in gender signifiers. Put crudely, which is unlike me. ‘I’m a dude but, I like feminine stuff it must be because I’m trans/non-binary’
Neurotypical people are better at handling ambiguity and dare I say outright blatant inconsistencies. It’s probably why you see a whole suite of gender identities, if one pigeonhole is a bit too snug another is created.
I will stress this is an intersection of a minority with another minority, I feel it’s at least a plausible theory but that group is going to be too small to meaningfully account for the trends we’re seeing.
I’ll see if I can dig it up anyway.
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It’s a good theory but I’m curious of plasmids take on it because the concept of trans people being more tolerated in society is quite the opposite of his posts that transphobic hate is in the rise, the walls are closing in, and he has to flee the country while there is still time.
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Northern Ireland24909 Posts
On June 09 2022 17:54 BlackJack wrote:
It’s a good theory but I’m curious of plasmids take on it because the concept of trans people being more tolerated in society is quite the opposite of his posts that transphobic hate is in the rise, the walls are closing in, and he has to flee the country while there is still time.
They’re more tolerated by many but there’s a commensurate counteraction to that tolerance and visibility.
When trans people weren’t really on the radar it wasn’t an issue in either direction.
It’s the difference in being closeted and nobody really having any strong opinion on your being vs (arbitrary numbers incoming) 50% of the population being fine with you being yourself and open and 50% actively despising it.
Hey closeted you’re less actively hated, the rather large downside being you can’t be yourself or comfortable in your own skin.
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On June 09 2022 18:17 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2022 17:54 BlackJack wrote:
It’s a good theory but I’m curious of plasmids take on it because the concept of trans people being more tolerated in society is quite the opposite of his posts that transphobic hate is in the rise, the walls are closing in, and he has to flee the country while there is still time. They’re more tolerated by many but there’s a commensurate counteraction to that tolerance and visibility. When trans people weren’t really on the radar it wasn’t an issue in either direction. It’s the difference in being closeted and nobody really having any strong opinion on your being vs (arbitrary numbers incoming) 50% of the population being fine with you being yourself and open and 50% actively despising it. Hey closeted you’re less actively hated, the rather large downside being you can’t be yourself or comfortable in your own skin.
I'm not sure "nobody had a strong issue" is really the right way to characterize it. The hate was still there-it was just "quiet" hate because the bigots still believed everyone thought the same thing as them. The murders were still there, depriving access to care was still there, bathroom bills were the default.
Also, people being more comfortable coming out younger is because young people are more accepting. Young people aren't exactly wielding positions of power in state legislatures.
Edit: It's an interesting parallel to Christian Dominionist statements on homosexuality-yes, they believe the state should stone gays, but in their society the state doesn't have to stone gays because the abject intolerance is such that if any come out it won't be the state doing the stoning. What's happening now with trans people is that the disintegration of that "implicit state violence" apparatus is resulting in explicit state violence in its place.
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On June 09 2022 22:00 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2022 18:17 WombaT wrote:On June 09 2022 17:54 BlackJack wrote:
It’s a good theory but I’m curious of plasmids take on it because the concept of trans people being more tolerated in society is quite the opposite of his posts that transphobic hate is in the rise, the walls are closing in, and he has to flee the country while there is still time. They’re more tolerated by many but there’s a commensurate counteraction to that tolerance and visibility. When trans people weren’t really on the radar it wasn’t an issue in either direction. It’s the difference in being closeted and nobody really having any strong opinion on your being vs (arbitrary numbers incoming) 50% of the population being fine with you being yourself and open and 50% actively despising it. Hey closeted you’re less actively hated, the rather large downside being you can’t be yourself or comfortable in your own skin. I'm not sure "nobody had a strong issue" is really the right way to characterize it. The hate was still there-it was just "quiet" hate because the bigots still believed everyone thought the same thing as them. The murders were still there, depriving access to care was still there, bathroom bills were the default. Also, people being more comfortable coming out younger is because young people are more accepting. Young people aren't exactly wielding positions of power in state legislatures.
To add, trans women on TV were constantly the butt of jokes, i.e. 'don't worry, he doesn't know you've got a penis' sort of stuff. Basically, there was 'no issue' because they were firmly under the boot.
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On June 09 2022 16:38 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2022 13:57 plasmidghost wrote:On June 09 2022 12:11 ChristianS wrote:On June 09 2022 11:59 plasmidghost wrote:On June 09 2022 11:52 ChristianS wrote:
I remember thinking plasmid was fine and probably only apologized because you were pretty aggro about sourcing and banworthiness. I think “I read a thing on Twitter” is a perfectly acceptable thing to say in the politics thread, and if somebody asks for a source it’s fine to either go find one or say “can’t find one right now, take it with a grain of salt.” LL made some claims about the VA that weren’t true a while back, but I just said “I don’t think that’s true,” I didn’t say “you better provide a source or else that’s banworthy.”
That said I don’t care that much either way and holding grudges pretty much always makes the thread worse. A younger me would have held grudges, but at this point with how dire things for us are in Texas and in the US, I don't even have the mental bandwidth to care about petty arguments, I'm too busy trying to ensure that the people I love aren't about to be legislated out of existence I need to provide a bunch of info about trans stuff because there is currently a ton of misinformation and misconceptions with regards to what's being posted, but I'm out at the moment I mean, if you have the time, I’d certainly appreciate it. I hope I haven’t fucked anything up too badly in talking about this stuff but there’s a ton I don’t know and it’s a little hard to know where to start. All good, I'll post stuff here that's relevant to what's being discussed. On June 09 2022 09:58 ChristianS wrote:I’m not normally a CCStealthBlue but: Several Texas families are under investigation for child abuse because of providing gender-affirming care to their trans children (AKA the care recommended by every major medical authority for gender dysphoria). The Texas Supreme Court shielded some, but not all of these families from investigation. link According to the lawsuit, a 16-year-old transgender boy tried to kill himself the same day that Abbott issued the child abuse directive.
“[He] said that the political environment, including Abbott’s Letter, and being misgendered at school, led him to take these actions,” the lawsuit said.
He survived the attempt and was admitted to an outpatient psychiatric facility, where staff learned that he was undergoing hormone therapy. A week after he was discharged, an investigator from DFPS visited the family’s home and, according to the lawsuit, said that the psychiatric facility had reported the family for child abuse. The family remains under investigation. This article is pretty straightforward. It should be noted that there is no legal requirement whatsoever for DFPS to investigate families of trans kids for child abuse, as per our Supreme Court's ruling last month. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, there is no legal requirement for any doctor in the state to report trans kids to DFPS, meaning that the doctors in the psychiatric facility willingly turned this family over to DFPS and should burn in hell. If I'm wrong on that and they were forced to, I would say two things: Do no harm isn't just empty words, and the just following orders excuse didn't work in the Nuremberg trials. On June 09 2022 10:32 BlackJack wrote:On June 09 2022 09:58 ChristianS wrote:I’m not normally a CCStealthBlue but: Several Texas families are under investigation for child abuse because of providing gender-affirming care to their trans children (AKA the care recommended by every major medical authority for gender dysphoria). The Texas Supreme Court shielded some, but not all of these families from investigation. link According to the lawsuit, a 16-year-old transgender boy tried to kill himself the same day that Abbott issued the child abuse directive.
“[He] said that the political environment, including Abbott’s Letter, and being misgendered at school, led him to take these actions,” the lawsuit said.
He survived the attempt and was admitted to an outpatient psychiatric facility, where staff learned that he was undergoing hormone therapy. A week after he was discharged, an investigator from DFPS visited the family’s home and, according to the lawsuit, said that the psychiatric facility had reported the family for child abuse. The family remains under investigation. It’s very imprecise to throw everything under this label of “gender affirming care.” As far as I can tell gender affirming care ranges from everything to using correct pronouns to puberty blockers to hormone replacement therapy to sex reassignment surgery. I dont think any country has an absolutist approach to gender affirming care to the point they allow minors to get HRT and sex reassignment surgery. So in that sense denying “gender affirming care” is pretty standard for most countries. In fact I think Sweden and Finland have banned puberty blockers for minors which I think is a step lower than HRT or surgeries. So Northern Europe is probably one of the most bigoted places when it comes to denying gender affirming care. Few things: It’s very imprecise to throw everything under this label of “gender affirming care.” As far as I can tell gender affirming care ranges from everything to using correct pronouns to puberty blockers to hormone replacement therapy to sex reassignment surgery. Florida is seeking to ban everything you list, including correct pronouns, for every minor in the state.As far as legality goes, this guidance is technically not enforceable, but as was the case with Texas investigations into child abuse, that means nothing and the GOP will do it anyway. I dont think any country has an absolutist approach to gender affirming care to the point they allow minors to get HRT and sex reassignment surgery. I'm not sure of any doctor that does gender-affirming surgery for any trans minor below 16 under any circumstance, and I know that most every medical board doesn't recommend it for trans kids under 18. I could absolutely be wrong regarding surgeries, but I personally haven't heard of surgeons providing those procedures that young even in the worst-case scenarios. This WaPo article has some good insights specifically relating to trans youth, highlighting that puberty blockers are completely reversible if stopped, that cross-sex hormones are usually started at 16, and that surgeries are usually done at 18 or later. Medical science and care is, of course, changing daily as more studies and evidence is gathered, but you are right that at the moment, I don't think any country allows complete medical transition for any reason under 18. In fact I think Sweden and Finland have banned puberty blockers for minors which I think is a step lower than HRT or surgeries. So Northern Europe is probably one of the most bigoted places when it comes to denying gender affirming care. Yeah, they are, there's no sugarcoating it. What Finland and Sweden has done flies in the face of decades of research into trans medical care, starting from the early 1970s. I'm not going to get too much into the political reasoning behind why they did it since this is the US politics thread, but the TL;DR is that they've been plagued by trans-exclusionary radical feminists and heavy propaganda by far-right orgs in the US like the Heritage Foundation into going against trans people. Here's an article on the benefits of medical care for trans youth.This is a good case study into one trans person's experiences 22 years after starting transition at 13.Here's a megathread linking currently over 100 studies and counting on the positive benefits of gender-affirming care for trans youth. I don't think I have the capability to read every single study in detail due to paywalling and time, but check some of them out. According to this link I googled it appears that hormone therapy is banned in a few European countries below the age of 18, including Italy, Portugal, and Austria. https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapySo I would assume that the Texas family of the 16 year old on hormone therapy that ChristianS posted about would be in hot water if they also lived in any of the countries that explicitly set the age of hormone therapy at 18. Surely not all of these countries are beholden to right-wing US hate groups, so what else is going on here? Do you think anyone is actually acting in good faith out of a legitimate concern for children? I think people are genuinely concerned due to how the prevalence of gender dysphoria has just exploded in the last couple decades. For example this excerpt I found in one of your links from the French National Academy of Medicine Show nested quote +The recognition of this disharmony is not new, but a very strong increase in the demand for physicians for this reason has been observed (1, 2) in North America, then in the countries of northern Europe and, more recently, in France, particularly in children and adolescents. For example, a recent study within a dozen high schools in Pittsburgh revealed a prevalence that was much higher than previously estimated in the United States (3): 10% of students declared themselves to be transgender or non-binary or of uncertain gender (b). In 2003, the Royal Children’s Hospital in Melbourne had diagnosed gender dysphoria in only one child, while today it treats nearly 200
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However, a great medical caution must be taken in children and adolescents, given the vulnerability, particularly psychological, of this population and the many undesirable effects, and even serious complications, that some of the available therapies can cause. In this respect, it is important to recall the recent decision (May 2021) of the Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm to ban the use of hormone blockers. What is your belief on why we are seeing such a huge jump in prevalence in gender dysphoria?
For what's going on with those countries, I wish I could give a definitive answer. Governments are seeing that a ton more people are coming out as trans, but I would say that's due to the visibility of the community now. If you look at media coverage in the 20th century, there was barely any mention of trans people outside of denigrating caricatures of us on the Jerry Springer show and similar. Nowadays, there's a ton more resources and knowledge of what veing trans is, which is leading to more people realizing they're trans. I don't think the actual number of trans people as a percentage of the population has changed, but societal pressures has kept a lot of older millennials and older in the closet and afraid to transition or even examine their gender dysphoria. I want to see studies into this, though. I know that back in the 1980s, I believe a study in the Netherlands showed that about .6% of the population (extrapolated from a sample of several thousand) had gender dysphoria and I would love to see an updated study on that figure.
For political reasons, a lot of supposedly progressive countries stopping care for trans youth probably comes down to the radical feminist and lesbian separatist movements that started in the 1970s. Many of them hate trans people so much that they want to make it illegal for us to transition at any age, but they started with kids because they're easy targets.
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On June 09 2022 17:54 BlackJack wrote:
It’s a good theory but I’m curious of plasmids take on it because the concept of trans people being more tolerated in society is quite the opposite of his posts that transphobic hate is in the rise, the walls are closing in, and he has to flee the country while there is still time.
I think a lot of it comes down to an article done in Time Magazine in 2014 called The Transgender Tipping Point.
When this article was published, it was a watershed moment for trans people in the West. A lot of us happened to read that and it was one of the earliest major media portrayals of us as human beings. We thought that just like the gay rights movement, it would be the start of us being more normalized and accepted into society.
The problem that happened was, a lot of the major LGBT organizations of the time like the Human Rights Campaign only catered to cis gay men and purposely threw trans people under the bus, as was the case during the ACA debates. They didn't give us any established support and advocacy to get major institutions behind us, so we were pretty much on our own.
Trans acceptance did improve for quite a while, about five years after that article, but in 2019, the GOP, knowing it had lost the battle on cis gay rights, decided to turn their sights against us, and since we didn't have major LGBT groups supporting us, there was no pushback from anyone outside of the community. Now we're at the point where states are outright banning healthcare for trans youth and are trying to ban it for trans adults and the Dems aren't going to stop it and all the major LGBT groups are finally caring much too late.
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Yo! this Jan6 committee probably isn't going to change many minds, nor get anyone high up in prison... but damn are some of these clips fun. Barr saving some face here
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On June 10 2022 09:29 Husyelt wrote:
Yo! this Jan6 committee probably isn't going to change many minds, nor get anyone high up in prison... but damn are some of these clips fun. Barr saving some face here
Any hope of that evaporated over a year ago, lol, now we're just waiting for the competent version of an insurrection that actually works.
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lmao Tucker is "covering" this live, and is flustered as fuck. his talking points that need to be jammed down the throats. I thought Fox News was supposed to be getting better.
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How's that plausible deniability going for them?
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Can't wait for this shit to get downplayed by the right all over again.
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Riddle me this... What was Trump's actual master plan beyond chaos agent and raising funds for Jan6? If he stokes up his crowd and breaks into the capitol... Do they hang Mike Pence and call the Election to Trump? Without anyone having firearms? I'm trying to figure out what the fuck he was trying to do other than absolute amusement. He's raised over 200 million dollars by now from the night of the election for stolen election claims...
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Powerful narcissist stoking his blazing ego, no plan just more wood for the ego-fire.
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On June 10 2022 10:26 Zambrah wrote:
Powerful narcissist stoking his blazing ego, no plan just more wood for the ego-fire.
An entire country brought to its knees by one bone machine with a three pound brain. the ego of one tiny three pound brain demands more kindling ...
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Says a lot about how the US has been systematically hollowed out over the past decades, we're basically a husk of a country waiting for that one strong gust of wind to cause us to crumble.
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On June 10 2022 10:15 Husyelt wrote:
Riddle me this... What was Trump's actual master plan beyond chaos agent and raising funds for Jan6? If he stokes up his crowd and breaks into the capitol... Do they hang Mike Pence and call the Election to Trump? Without anyone having firearms? I'm trying to figure out what the fuck he was trying to do other than absolute amusement. He's raised over 200 million dollars by now from the night of the election for stolen election claims...
Pence is forced out of the capitol due to violence. He's never allowed back because trump can order them to now allow him to return due to the violence. A loyalist rejects a few electors snd replaces them with trump friendly ones. A trump loyalist counts enough electors for trump that he is declared the winner.
Democrats are forced to bend the knee or return the favor and start the second civil war.
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On June 10 2022 10:40 Zambrah wrote:
Says a lot about how the US has been systematically hollowed out over the past decades, we're a husk of a country waiting for that one strong gust of wind to cause us to crumble.
I wouldn't say the past decades. Pence represents the evangelical right and even he didn't go along with the coup. This is entirely apart of the post bush dissolution with the fears of electoral nonviability of white nationalists due to changing demographics. Sarah Palin was the attempt of the Republican party to get back on track with more naked nationalism and reactionary content to rally up a dwindling base. That base got out of control and now we have trump.
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On June 10 2022 11:01 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2022 10:40 Zambrah wrote:
Says a lot about how the US has been systematically hollowed out over the past decades, we're a husk of a country waiting for that one strong gust of wind to cause us to crumble. I wouldn't say the past decades. Pence represents the evangelical right and even he didn't go along with the coup. This is entirely apart of the post bush dissolution with the fears of electoral nonviability of white nationalists due to changing demographics. Sarah Palin was the attempt of the Republican party to get back on track with more naked nationalism and reactionary content to rally up a dwindling base. That base got out of control and now we have trump.
I track the downfall of the US to Reagan, the pilfering of economic prosperity over the years has led to stratification of wealth as well as the death of the American dream. Life becomes harder, money becomes tighter, people become more desperate and since the people pilfering don't want to face the pitchfork the media blames immigrants, the liberals, the whoever theyre scapegoating at the time. The situation is a cacophony of deregulation and corporations gaining tons of control over government, but I generally believe our current world is the product of Reagan onwards.
Im firmly of the opinion a thriving country with people who have faith in their situation and leadership aren't as susceptible to dumb conspiracy bullshit as ones who are in desperate situations, thats the lens that I view the current situation with. Without Reagan ruining the US economically and culturally for anyone sans the rich I don't think we wind up in this shitty reality.
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EPT
