EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3589
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
But after the CIA received it, the agency concluded that the data purporting to show server pings was “user created and not machine/tool generated." In other words, the Alfa Bank data and theory were fabricated. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On April 19 2022 06:01 JimmiC wrote: I think that is a bit of a exaggeration, they were not saying they would never look into it, it was that it did not matter at the time and they had the more pressing issue of dealing with the pandemic that was pretty damn awful at that point. As I stated in a post that dropped with yours I prefer transparency, but there is a lot worst things then we will deal with this later from a censorship point of view. Intent and timing matter. Hiding information only works when you're sure it will never come to light. You lose trust if someone ever finds out, then people stop believing you even when you don't hide things. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
If you stop rumors from spreading by banning or deplatforming, then people find out anyway and become even less trusting of the mainstream discussion. Plus, if it later turns out the rumor is true, that just makes it 10 times worse. Even China couldn't ban news about the existence of Covid forever, and they have the most powerful censorship program in the world. If you let them spread, then since rumors are false most of the time, you let disinformation grow and spread, which in the case of something life threatening like a global pandemic, or politically important like alleged corruption of a candidate, is also really harmful. "Fact checking" is not a solution in my opinion. This presumes that the platform, or the organization it hires, has a monopoly on the truth. This is a very dangerous assumption, especially if they make a mistake, or worse, they're malicious. We shouldn't be asking people to trust information presented to them by the platform they're on. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:11 gobbledydook wrote: "Fact checking" is not a solution in my opinion. This presumes that the platform, or the organization it hires, has a monopoly on the truth. This is a very dangerous assumption, especially if they make a mistake, or worse, they're malicious. We shouldn't be asking people to trust information presented to them by the platform they're on. I don't know what reasonable alternative there could be. Seems worse to me have a bunch of people just lying without consequence, and having everyone listen to whatever "truth" feels best to them with no real standard of what truth is. It seems like in the age of the internet, social media and cable news, we have far more of a problem with lack of standards than with "monopoly on truth", at least in the US. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18280 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:11 gobbledydook wrote: Ultimately it's a very difficult topic. If you stop rumors from spreading by banning or deplatforming, then people find out anyway and become even less trusting of the mainstream discussion. Plus, if it later turns out the rumor is true, that just makes it 10 times worse. Even China couldn't ban news about the existence of Covid forever, and they have the most powerful censorship program in the world. If you let them spread, then since rumors are false most of the time, you let disinformation grow and spread, which in the case of something life threatening like a global pandemic, or politically important like alleged corruption of a candidate, is also really harmful. "Fact checking" is not a solution in my opinion. This presumes that the platform, or the organization it hires, has a monopoly on the truth. This is a very dangerous assumption, especially if they make a mistake, or worse, they're malicious. We shouldn't be asking people to trust information presented to them by the platform they're on. But "fact checking" is largely how journalists work. A single source isn't enough. Investigative journalists need multiple sources and corroborating evidence to publish an article. Why do we treat investigative tweeting any different? Anything else is gossip and I have no qualms at all deplatforming gossip, even if some of it turns out to be true. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11817 Posts
On April 19 2022 15:10 Acrofales wrote: But "fact checking" is largely how journalists work. A single source isn't enough. Investigative journalists need multiple sources and corroborating evidence to publish an article. Why do we treat investigative tweeting any different? Anything else is gossip and I have no qualms at all deplatforming gossip, even if some of it turns out to be true. The big question here is who gets to decide what is gossip and what is fact checked enough. I am very sceptical of a private company doing that. Ultimately, the only thing that Twitter cares about is how much money Twitter makes. They are not really interested in the public good. But i also don't have a better solution. Just letting everything stand doesn't work due to the hate it ferments and the information bubbles it creates. That just allows the population to be split in different groups with different facts, which kills all discussion. Having the state in control also seems slightly scary, but also impossible because there simply are not enough resources to do that in a legal way, ideally involving courts. I guess you could have some laws about journalistic integrity if you act like a journalist on any platform, but that would be very hard to actually handle, especially in any relevant timeframe. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5600 Posts
Just letting everything stand doesn't work due to the hate it ferments and the information bubbles it creates. I'm no historian, but I bet this is how the feudal rulers reacted to the first newspapers in the early modern period. There is no alternative to freedom here imo. In my view, it's pretty clear that censorship in the west about subjects like immigration and Corona has done much more damage to public discourse (creating information bubbles etc) than the regular use of these new internet platforms. Obviously a bare minimum of regulation must still be upheld: ban of hate speech (however problematic the term is), threats, defamation etc. But that is no different from regulation of all other types of speech/discourse. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11817 Posts
On April 19 2022 18:28 Elroi wrote: I'm no historian, but I bet this is how the feudal rulers reacted to the first newspapers in the early modern period. There is no alternative to freedom here imo. In my view, it's pretty clear that censorship in the west about subjects like immigration and Corona has done much more damage to public discourse (creating information bubbles etc) than the regular use of these new internet platforms. Obviously a bare minimum of regulation must still be upheld: ban of hate speech (however problematic the term is), threats, defamation etc. But that is no different from regulation of all other types of speech/discourse. The problem is not with wrong opinions, but with incorrect facts. People cannot fact-check everything themselves. And there are far too many actors who are not interested in people getting correct facts, but in them believing what those actors want. I can go on Twitter right now, and claim that a muslim has raped my sister yesterday in broad daylight, and the police just stood by and did nothing. Add some random vaguely fitting image i found on the internet. And if i am involved in the correct circles, that message will very quickly make the rounds, and a lot of people will view it as fact, despite the fact that i randomly made it up. I don't even have a sister. And this is a problem. I very much prefer the concept of freedom of opinion to the concept of freedom of speech. If people start at the same facts, but interpret them differently, they can communicate and exchange ideas. If people just live in completely different worlds with completely different facts, communication is basically impossible. As such, i think greater scrutiny needs to be given when something is claimed as a fact. Did the think we are debating about actually happen, or did someone just make it up? That is very relevant. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45762 Posts
My guess is that they found out that math can be done in non-binary, and they misunderstood. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11817 Posts
On April 19 2022 20:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Florida has been banning math textbooks, due to those books supposedly teaching critical race theory and other controversial identity topics. If you can find any examples of such math problems, please share them with me; I'm wondering what Florida is talking about. My guess is that they found out that math can be done in non-binary, and they misunderstood. My guess would be that there were black people in some of the problems or explanations in the book. Or possible gay people. But i, too, would be interested in this. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45762 Posts
On April 19 2022 22:34 JimmiC wrote: So far Florida has been unable to bring up any examples in spite of claiming there is many example and the process is very transparent. Found this article fairly entertaining. https://ca.news.yahoo.com/im-going-florida-gov-ron-202433001.html "Like most reasonable Americans, I’m considering moving to Florida to keep my children safe from math." Well played. But in all seriousness, I've really tried looking for any examples of CRT math problems that were in Florida's banned textbooks, and I haven't found a single one yet. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On April 19 2022 17:54 Simberto wrote: The big question here is who gets to decide what is gossip and what is fact checked enough. I am very sceptical of a private company doing that. Ultimately, the only thing that Twitter cares about is how much money Twitter makes. They are not really interested in the public good. But i also don't have a better solution. Just letting everything stand doesn't work due to the hate it ferments and the information bubbles it creates. That just allows the population to be split in different groups with different facts, which kills all discussion. Having the state in control also seems slightly scary, but also impossible because there simply are not enough resources to do that in a legal way, ideally involving courts. I guess you could have some laws about journalistic integrity if you act like a journalist on any platform, but that would be very hard to actually handle, especially in any relevant timeframe. Exactly. fact checking is not a bad thing. having the platform decide which fact check to use is the problem. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On April 19 2022 15:10 Acrofales wrote: But "fact checking" is largely how journalists work. A single source isn't enough. Investigative journalists need multiple sources and corroborating evidence to publish an article. Why do we treat investigative tweeting any different? Anything else is gossip and I have no qualms at all deplatforming gossip, even if some of it turns out to be true. if we deplatform gossip the entertainment industry would probably collapse immediately. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On April 19 2022 20:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Florida has been banning math textbooks, due to those books supposedly teaching critical race theory and other controversial identity topics. If you can find any examples of such math problems, please share them with me; I'm wondering what Florida is talking about. My guess is that they found out that math can be done in non-binary, and they misunderstood. It was probably like corporate training and/or email/marketing things where they include a black woman, a hispanic man, an asian woman, and an obviously gay man for the sake of inclusion etc | ||
KwarK
United States43964 Posts
On April 20 2022 00:12 gobbledydook wrote: if we deplatform gossip the entertainment industry would probably collapse immediately. I thought you were against deplatforming? Also celebrity culture is a very small subset of entertainment. You can have Othello without having live updates on who the actor playing Othello is banging. | ||
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