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On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with.
Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy.
The world would be a considerably less polarised place if people who didn’t previously pay much attention to politics or current affairs weren’t now doing so via the prism of social media.
I felt there was a morale boost for a short period of time due to Covid but that was never going to be sustainable, partly because the longer it dragged the more it really stuck a magnifying loss on existing socio-economic divides.
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On July 14 2021 16:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. The world would be a considerably less polarised place if people who didn’t previously pay much attention to politics or current affairs weren’t now doing so via the prism of social media. I felt there was a morale boost for a short period of time due to Covid but that was never going to be sustainable, partly because the longer it dragged the more it really stuck a magnifying loss on existing socio-economic divides.
True on both points. A lot of people who were uninvolved and uninformed didn't have much of a choice but to be exposed to the talking points regarding a global pandemic. And yeah, there was a brief moment where it felt like people were being cohesive and caring about the next step moving forward, but it didn't take long for that to fall by the wayside. As with anything I generally comment on: it's all rather unfortunate.
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On July 15 2021 00:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 21:14 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 16:27 WombaT wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. The world would be a considerably less polarised place if people who didn’t previously pay much attention to politics or current affairs weren’t now doing so via the prism of social media. I felt there was a morale boost for a short period of time due to Covid but that was never going to be sustainable, partly because the longer it dragged the more it really stuck a magnifying loss on existing socio-economic divides. True on both points. A lot of people who were uninvolved and uninformed didn't have much of a choice but to be exposed to the talking points regarding a global pandemic. And yeah, there was a brief moment where it felt like people were being cohesive and caring about the next step moving forward, but it didn't take long for that to fall by the wayside. As with anything I generally comment on: it's all rather unfortunate. Another thing I was thinking about the other day is how back when people consumed news by either the paper or the 6 pm news you had only the front page of the paper or the commercial about the news that was "click baity". Now every stories headline is that way and often when you open the story it says something pretty different from the head line. Even worse many people never bother to read the article. Clicks creating the revenue instead of subscriptions have totally changed the way these kind of things are marketed and it is not good for society. That is really fucked up. Making vaccinations a political issue is just so bad for society. Why do they need to fight about everything. They need to argue about tax rates and social programs but agree on science and health, this is moronic.
I think that is the necessary result of everything being political, and at least one of two parties very clearly stating that they don't believe in facts. If you get votes whenever you fight the other guy, you start fights over everything.
When your core issues become more and more indefensible, it helps to have similarly outrageous secondary fights with the other side.
The republican core issue is basically making sure that rich people can get as much money as humanly possible at the cost of everyone else. That doesn't poll very well, though, so instead of trying to sell that, they sell lots of other stuff to their voters that they don't really care about.
This way, their opposition can not focus on their actual core topic and oppose them there, and instead has to constantly fight all these fucking stupid idiotic harmful positions. Now, instead of being able to argue against their "make the rich richer" goal, you have to argue for vaccines, against bigotry, for not restricting womens rights, and all sorts of other things. Which are all important, but really also shouldn't be an issue at all because the republican position on those issues is generally either evil or insane.
Through this distraction, they manage to sneak through their actual singular goal of redistribution from the bottom to the top.
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On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy.
One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over.
Oukka just kindly shared one way.
On July 14 2021 21:19 Oukka wrote:What in the flying buttfuck are these people doing? Tennessee is halting reminders of vaccinations for teenagers, not just for covid, but for other vaccines as well. Just how does anyone think this is good for anything or anyone? Schools are excellent ways to reach out to young people and target public health interventions, but in their grand wisdom they've decided to give up on this and presumably put their trust on individuals proactively looking up what vaccines and when they can get them. Utter garbage. https://eu.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2021/07/13/tennessee-halts-all-vaccine-outreach-minors-not-just-covid-19/7928701002/
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On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over.
One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you.
Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines.
With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all.
We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information.
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On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. and yet Conservatives appear fine with restricting other peoples liberties so long as it doesn't effect them.
If they cared about everyone being free to do what they will they wouldn't have a problem with LGBT to just name an obvious example.
Whenever someone brings up caring about individual liberties I just default assume its their individual liberty to oppress others, because most of the time that's what they really mean.
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On July 15 2021 05:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines. With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all. We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information.
I'm inclined to believe that the previously pointed out click-bait nature of most news sources is one of the causes of this, as it shoves talking points at people who generally aren't even willing to check into what brought them to that conclusion. Another would be a president representing the Republicans disregarding many media outlets as false, and the backlash of that from the media.
Another might be the ousting of dissenting opinions ("spreading misinformation" has become something worthy of censorship on platforms like Twitter, something that will drive people into the darker channels of the internet for a community welcoming either their similar opinions or actual free thought.)
Another would be that we simply have lost a lot of nuance in the way we speak to each other in such an emotionally charged arena, prompting people to have a genuine distaste of the "others" and not engage in meaningful conversations like you mentioned (building common ground and moving forward.)
There are a lot of things that brought us to this point. It's not a new phenomenon for people to stick to party lines closer than their own logic would generally allow, but it's rather profound at the moment. Times like these give my silly libertarian views a comfy spot on the bleachers to watch 98% of my country wage a thoroughly stupid war of opinions. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me, and I don't bother to change anyone's mind, something that I don't see a lot of anymore.
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On July 15 2021 06:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. and yet Conservatives appear fine with restricting other peoples liberties so long as it doesn't effect them. If they cared about everyone being free to do what they will they wouldn't have a problem with LGBT to just name an obvious example. Whenever someone brings up caring about individual liberties I just default assume its their individual liberty to oppress others, because most of the time that's what they really mean.
They certainly have their fair share of hypocritical views, that's for sure. I'm not well-versed enough in their party scripture to give a worthy response. I believe in protecting individual liberties (to a rather absurd point, according to many,) and definitely do not have reason or willingness to infringe on such groups' efforts to do whatever it is they feel like doing. Just sayin'
EDIT: I meant to shove this bit into an edit on my previous post but whatever. Can't go back now.
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On July 15 2021 06:19 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 05:16 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines. With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all. We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information. I'm inclined to believe that the previously pointed out click-bait nature of most news sources is one of the causes of this, as it shoves talking points at people who generally aren't even willing to check into what brought them to that conclusion. Another would be a president representing the Republicans disregarding many media outlets as false, and the backlash of that from the media. Another might be the ousting of dissenting opinions ("spreading misinformation" has become something worthy of censorship on platforms like Twitter, something that will drive people into the darker channels of the internet for a community welcoming either their similar opinions or actual free thought.) Another would be that we simply have lost a lot of nuance in the way we speak to each other in such an emotionally charged arena, prompting people to have a genuine distaste of the "others" and not engage in meaningful conversations like you mentioned (building common ground and moving forward.) There are a lot of things that brought us to this point. It's not a new phenomenon for people to stick to party lines closer than their own logic would generally allow, but it's rather profound at the moment. Times like these give my silly libertarian views a comfy spot on the bleachers to watch 98% of my country wage a thoroughly stupid war of opinions. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me, and I don't bother to change anyone's mind, something that I don't see a lot of anymore.
People who have their rights regularly attacked by Republicans every day don't have the luxury of placing their ideology on a "comfy spot on the bleachers", like you do, so I'm happy for you I suppose. Just don't go acting like the other 98% of folks are all the same. One chunk of folks are fighting to preserve their individual liberties (to go about their own damn business), as well as a respect for facts and science, and another chunk is actively attacking all of those things. And it's stupid primarily because of the aforementioned attack on facts, again spearheaded by Republicans alone. It ain't the same.
When you have 2 children, and one of them decides to be a vicious little prick who's only interested in fighting and arguing with the other, you don't tell them both to get along. You tell the one who's instigating to cut it the fuck out.
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I don't believe I responded to anyone with venom, and deliberately did not direct my comments to Bamboo in particular. They're free to make what they will of what I said. I understand full well how volatile modern political discourse can be, but I understand equally how harmful it can be to beat around the bush when it matters.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On July 15 2021 07:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 07:18 NewSunshine wrote:On July 15 2021 06:19 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 05:16 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 11:39 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:03 JimmiC wrote:
Last I read they were stopped by the coast guard and will seek permission to which the cost guard replied, we won't give permission.
Which I hope is right, that had disaster written all over it. I'm not sure how you end that repressive dictatorship mascarading as communism but I'm sure that is not it. That's probably the right call. Would kind of suck for the coast guard to be responsible for letting people try their luck on what kind of resistance they would meet upon reaching the shores of Cuba. I honestly had no idea what was going on in Cuba until this thread, and responded before even giving it a quick google; I assumed it was Cubans going to help the people due to some disaster or something, not an anti-government uprising. Yeah, the Cuban government actually might just bring the hammer down on people coming in to raise hell in direct opposition to them. I'm clearly not very up to date on all current affairs, and the only news I've been keeping up with lately is what's going on in South Africa (but won't post here because it really has nothing to do with American politics) other than damn, shit is fucked up over there right now. You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines. With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all. We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information. I'm inclined to believe that the previously pointed out click-bait nature of most news sources is one of the causes of this, as it shoves talking points at people who generally aren't even willing to check into what brought them to that conclusion. Another would be a president representing the Republicans disregarding many media outlets as false, and the backlash of that from the media. Another might be the ousting of dissenting opinions ("spreading misinformation" has become something worthy of censorship on platforms like Twitter, something that will drive people into the darker channels of the internet for a community welcoming either their similar opinions or actual free thought.) Another would be that we simply have lost a lot of nuance in the way we speak to each other in such an emotionally charged arena, prompting people to have a genuine distaste of the "others" and not engage in meaningful conversations like you mentioned (building common ground and moving forward.) There are a lot of things that brought us to this point. It's not a new phenomenon for people to stick to party lines closer than their own logic would generally allow, but it's rather profound at the moment. Times like these give my silly libertarian views a comfy spot on the bleachers to watch 98% of my country wage a thoroughly stupid war of opinions. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me, and I don't bother to change anyone's mind, something that I don't see a lot of anymore. People who have their rights regularly attacked by Republicans every day don't have the luxury of placing their ideology on a "comfy spot on the bleachers", like you do, so I'm happy for you I suppose. Just don't go acting like the other 98% of folks are all the same. One chunk of folks are fighting to preserve their individual liberties (to go about their own damn business), as well as a respect for facts and science, and another chunk is actively attacking all of those things. And it's stupid primarily because of the aforementioned attack on facts, again spearheaded by Republicans alone. It ain't the same. [b]When you have 2 children, and one of them decides to be a vicious little prick who's only interested in fighting and arguing with the other, you don't tell them both to get along. You tell the one who's instigating to cut it the fuck out.[b] Kind of, but you have to be careful that it is reality that one is always instigating it. Otherwise the false accusations do more harm then good and you end up solidifying the behavior you are trying to stop. To bring it back to this, when someone like Bamboo who has different views than yourself posts about his perspective you try to understand and state why you disagree or maybe find some common ground. The instant venom gives no room for anything but venom back. Discourse is important even with those you disagree with.
How do you do this with people who don’t share different views with you but inhabit an entirely different reality altogether?
Not the case with Bamboo of course!
There’s a hefty subsection of people I’m just sick of dealing with, they’re actively damaging my country, they’re clearly doing the same across the Atlantic and for what?
The pressing issues of our age are not being able to use the n word without consequence, discriminate against trans people etc etc, but hey that seems to be where folks want to do for some reason.
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On July 15 2021 10:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 08:21 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 07:51 JimmiC wrote:On July 15 2021 07:18 NewSunshine wrote:On July 15 2021 06:19 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 05:16 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines. With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all. We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information. I'm inclined to believe that the previously pointed out click-bait nature of most news sources is one of the causes of this, as it shoves talking points at people who generally aren't even willing to check into what brought them to that conclusion. Another would be a president representing the Republicans disregarding many media outlets as false, and the backlash of that from the media. Another might be the ousting of dissenting opinions ("spreading misinformation" has become something worthy of censorship on platforms like Twitter, something that will drive people into the darker channels of the internet for a community welcoming either their similar opinions or actual free thought.) Another would be that we simply have lost a lot of nuance in the way we speak to each other in such an emotionally charged arena, prompting people to have a genuine distaste of the "others" and not engage in meaningful conversations like you mentioned (building common ground and moving forward.) There are a lot of things that brought us to this point. It's not a new phenomenon for people to stick to party lines closer than their own logic would generally allow, but it's rather profound at the moment. Times like these give my silly libertarian views a comfy spot on the bleachers to watch 98% of my country wage a thoroughly stupid war of opinions. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me, and I don't bother to change anyone's mind, something that I don't see a lot of anymore. People who have their rights regularly attacked by Republicans every day don't have the luxury of placing their ideology on a "comfy spot on the bleachers", like you do, so I'm happy for you I suppose. Just don't go acting like the other 98% of folks are all the same. One chunk of folks are fighting to preserve their individual liberties (to go about their own damn business), as well as a respect for facts and science, and another chunk is actively attacking all of those things. And it's stupid primarily because of the aforementioned attack on facts, again spearheaded by Republicans alone. It ain't the same. [b]When you have 2 children, and one of them decides to be a vicious little prick who's only interested in fighting and arguing with the other, you don't tell them both to get along. You tell the one who's instigating to cut it the fuck out.[b] Kind of, but you have to be careful that it is reality that one is always instigating it. Otherwise the false accusations do more harm then good and you end up solidifying the behavior you are trying to stop. To bring it back to this, when someone like Bamboo who has different views than yourself posts about his perspective you try to understand and state why you disagree or maybe find some common ground. The instant venom gives no room for anything but venom back. Discourse is important even with those you disagree with. How do you do this with people who don’t share different views with you but inhabit an entirely different reality altogether? Not the case with Bamboo of course! There’s a hefty subsection of people I’m just sick of dealing with, they’re actively damaging my country, they’re clearly doing the same across the Atlantic and for what? The pressing issues of our age are not being able to use the n word without consequence, discriminate against trans people etc etc, but hey that seems to be where folks want to do for some reason. I've had no success, if people believe nonsense there is not much to be done. It basically becomes like religious faith where the badge of honor and community acceptance is believing without proof. Anything against it is just part of the conspiracy. Try to not let it spread as it is very angry is the best I can figure and if they are family or close friend try to plant seeds and hope they comeback. I have not even seen any articles about how to discuss and have it work, I'm not sure anyone knows. If you have any success let me know.
I pretty much gave up on convincing certain people about things when I asked what evidence I would have to show them to get them to change their mind. They said there was nothing that could do it.
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On July 15 2021 10:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 08:21 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 07:51 JimmiC wrote:On July 15 2021 07:18 NewSunshine wrote:On July 15 2021 06:19 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 05:16 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 04:52 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 15 2021 01:23 Kyadytim wrote:On July 14 2021 12:24 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On July 14 2021 11:48 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You would really have hoped that a global pandemic would have pulled us all together but if anything it has increased the divide and there is just as much or more awful things going on that is is hard to keep up with. Unfortunately, that pandemic was used as a tool for many to polarize us even more. Whatever one's opinions on Covid, it's effect on the world, various government's responses, or anything else related to it: the discussion itself has dividing lines drawn on top of it. It's partially the fault of those on top who politicized the event, but also people who bought into doubling down on seeing opposing views as dangerous or that of their enemy. One side's views are just dangerous and harmful to humanity, though. Republicans' beliefs are, in a variety of ways, a hazard to the health of themselves, the people around them, and everyone they can get power over. One sees the other as a danger, and there is merit to that, I agree. The other sees a group of people (their enemy) attempting to restrict their individual liberties. I'm not taking a stance on its legitimacy, but it's a rather conservative thought to believe that they have every right to endanger themselves if they so please. Endangering others doesn't apply much when such a politicized (read: muddied with [mis]information) topic carries the idea that Covid isn't a big deal/even a real thing. It's a matter of perspective. But to clarify, I wasn't really speaking about those in power, but regular citizens (of this nation or others) seeing an ideological block that once again keeps them from being able to engage with one another civilly/rationally. You either have a blue jersey or a red jersey and everyone who isn't you is either stupid or wants the government to bully you. Indeed. The issue is really a lack of a centre ground, and not in a political sense. Just some kind of shared pillars of commonly accepted truth and from there how we go about addressing problems there’s some divergence along ideological lines. With Covid that would be as simple as ‘Ok Covid is a real thing, here’s what we know it does (so far), what do we do about it?’ Which absolutely hasn’t been the thrust of it at all. We’re in some strange hinterland between many people having a skepticism about mainstream narratives and who espouses them, but lacking the ability to properly filter alternative sources of information. I'm inclined to believe that the previously pointed out click-bait nature of most news sources is one of the causes of this, as it shoves talking points at people who generally aren't even willing to check into what brought them to that conclusion. Another would be a president representing the Republicans disregarding many media outlets as false, and the backlash of that from the media. Another might be the ousting of dissenting opinions ("spreading misinformation" has become something worthy of censorship on platforms like Twitter, something that will drive people into the darker channels of the internet for a community welcoming either their similar opinions or actual free thought.) Another would be that we simply have lost a lot of nuance in the way we speak to each other in such an emotionally charged arena, prompting people to have a genuine distaste of the "others" and not engage in meaningful conversations like you mentioned (building common ground and moving forward.) There are a lot of things that brought us to this point. It's not a new phenomenon for people to stick to party lines closer than their own logic would generally allow, but it's rather profound at the moment. Times like these give my silly libertarian views a comfy spot on the bleachers to watch 98% of my country wage a thoroughly stupid war of opinions. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me, and I don't bother to change anyone's mind, something that I don't see a lot of anymore. People who have their rights regularly attacked by Republicans every day don't have the luxury of placing their ideology on a "comfy spot on the bleachers", like you do, so I'm happy for you I suppose. Just don't go acting like the other 98% of folks are all the same. One chunk of folks are fighting to preserve their individual liberties (to go about their own damn business), as well as a respect for facts and science, and another chunk is actively attacking all of those things. And it's stupid primarily because of the aforementioned attack on facts, again spearheaded by Republicans alone. It ain't the same. [b]When you have 2 children, and one of them decides to be a vicious little prick who's only interested in fighting and arguing with the other, you don't tell them both to get along. You tell the one who's instigating to cut it the fuck out.[b] Kind of, but you have to be careful that it is reality that one is always instigating it. Otherwise the false accusations do more harm then good and you end up solidifying the behavior you are trying to stop. To bring it back to this, when someone like Bamboo who has different views than yourself posts about his perspective you try to understand and state why you disagree or maybe find some common ground. The instant venom gives no room for anything but venom back. Discourse is important even with those you disagree with. How do you do this with people who don’t share different views with you but inhabit an entirely different reality altogether? Not the case with Bamboo of course! There’s a hefty subsection of people I’m just sick of dealing with, they’re actively damaging my country, they’re clearly doing the same across the Atlantic and for what? The pressing issues of our age are not being able to use the n word without consequence, discriminate against trans people etc etc, but hey that seems to be where folks want to do for some reason. I've had no success, if people believe nonsense there is not much to be done. It basically becomes like religious faith where the badge of honor and community acceptance is believing without proof. Anything against it is just part of the conspiracy. Try to not let it spread as it is very angry is the best I can figure and if they are family or close friend try to plant seeds and hope they comeback. I have not even seen any articles about how to discuss and have it work, I'm not sure anyone knows. If you have any success let me know.
Street epistemology is a decent method, but people need to be open to reflecting on their beliefs and how they come to them, which many are not.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=street epistemology
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EPT
