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On June 21 2018 01:33 TheTenthDoc wrote:
There will be so many future theses written about whether Trump was a liar who recognized the power of lies or just had no grasp whatsoever on reality and stumbled upon their power instinctively. Maybe I'll try to read some of them.
Its absolutely the former. 60minutes people said he told them off camera during the campaign that he lies so that his followers wont believe the media when they criticize him. This was confirmed with his recent tweet where he actually defined fake news as being the same thing as negative news.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-attacking-press-to-discredit-negative-stories/
Truly the actions of a despot.
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it’s the ultimate irony that his base believes one of the biggest problems in government is that they’re being lied to. he has to get his fair share of kicks thinking how easily he lies to the very same people who believe in deep state conspiracies. i mean, it would do it for me.
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On June 21 2018 02:10 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2018 01:33 TheTenthDoc wrote:
There will be so many future theses written about whether Trump was a liar who recognized the power of lies or just had no grasp whatsoever on reality and stumbled upon their power instinctively. Maybe I'll try to read some of them. Its absolutely the former. 60minutes people said he told them off camera during the campaign that he lies so that his followers wont believe the media when they criticize him. This was confirmed with his recent tweet where he actually defined fake news as being the same thing as negative news. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-attacking-press-to-discredit-negative-stories/Truly the actions of a despot.
Ah, but you could also attribute those statements to just be post hoc justifications; that's an easy out for to preserve his brain's image of himself as a 4-D chess master and not a man with no idea what's going on who genuinely believes Muslims in New Jersey celebrated 9/11. It's also quite likely some of his lies are calculated and some are just delusions.
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On June 21 2018 02:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2018 02:10 On_Slaught wrote:On June 21 2018 01:33 TheTenthDoc wrote:
There will be so many future theses written about whether Trump was a liar who recognized the power of lies or just had no grasp whatsoever on reality and stumbled upon their power instinctively. Maybe I'll try to read some of them. Its absolutely the former. 60minutes people said he told them off camera during the campaign that he lies so that his followers wont believe the media when they criticize him. This was confirmed with his recent tweet where he actually defined fake news as being the same thing as negative news. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lesley-stahl-donald-trump-said-attacking-press-to-discredit-negative-stories/Truly the actions of a despot. Ah, but you could also attribute those statements to just be post hoc justifications; that's an easy out for to preserve his brain's image of himself as a 4-D chess master and not a man with no idea what's going on who genuinely believes Muslims in New Jersey celebrated 9/11. It's also quite likely some of his lies are calculated and some are just delusions.
I am pretty sure all of DJTs objective reality lies actually pass the George Costanza test. Is DJT lying? For sure, he had access to the truth and likely heard it. He chooses to repeat falsehoods as if they are true. That is objective reality lying. But does DJT believe his lies seconds after he utters them? Yes. Yes grandpa really does believe his own bullshit. Thus, DJT would pass the George Costanza test. This makes it hard for people who want to stick to empirical reality to call what DJT's lies out as being lies, because he might really believe them so it makes it hard to establish the intent.
+ Show Spoiler +
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This whole thing is an enormous political loss for Trump. Talked a ton of shit about Mexicans during the campaign --> Re-upped his toxic language with "infest" --> defended this tragic policy --> said democrats are the ones to blame --> revoked the policy himself, making it extremely clear every ball was in his court to begin with.
This was just way, way, way too far. I imagine a lot of people who are all about preventing illegal immigration are now taking a step back and realizing Trump took things way too far. Trump now appears hateful rather than "tough". And he reversed it anyway. Theresa May was likely the straw that broke the camel's back.
This is for sure going to go down in history as another Japanese internment camp in the textbooks. This has been a truly inhumane, awful policy. I'm sad that we will carry this blemish forever. We should have been above all this. I'm just glad it is going to be over soon.
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My only hope is that this shines a bright light on the rot that is ICE and the detention facilities that exist in the US. No one could give that issue the time of day before now, so I hope it never stops. We need to end the delusion that illegal immigration is some blight on this country and have real discussions about the best way to handle things like asylum seekers. It seems the plan to process them, collect the fine and give them a tracking bracelet was very effective, so why not just do it that way?
Of course the answer is that the entire debate is so toxic that we can't discuss things like that. Everyone is so scared of the issue that it is never talked about, and because of that citizens are poorly informed about things like "catch and release" system. The thing that we demonized and cited at terrible, when in fact it was likely more effective and cheaper than detaining everyone.
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On June 21 2018 03:34 Plansix wrote:
My only hope is that this shines a bright light on the rot that is ICE and the detention facilities that exist in the US. No one could give that issue the time of day before now, so I hope it never stops. We need to end the delusion that illegal immigration is some blight on this country and have real discussions about the best way to handle things like asylum seekers. It seems the plan to process them, collect the fine and give them a tracking bracelet was very effective, so why not just do it that way?
Of course the answer is that the entire debate is so toxic that we can't discuss things like that. Everyone is so scared of the issue that it is never talked about, and because of that citizens are poorly informed about things like "catch and release" system. The thing that we demonized and cited at terrible, when in fact it was likely more effective and cheaper than detaining everyone.
This sure did a good job at bringing attention to the whole thing. My hope is that there has been such a wealth of terrible publicity for Trump's whole "Fuck Mexican immigrants" thing that he has a lot of allies who are suddenly hesitant to approach or buy into this stuff. This became an international crisis. Nobody wants to go near this stuff anymore.
Trump's wall is essentially doomed at this point. This is such a touchy subject and Trump's wall can easily be lumped together with child internment camps. Trump defended this policy so much that it is impossible to not associate his immigration policy with it. Republicans will need to focus on other issues for a while.
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On June 21 2018 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:
This whole thing is an enormous political loss for Trump. Talked a ton of shit about Mexicans during the campaign --> Re-upped his toxic language with "infest" --> defended this tragic policy --> said democrats are the ones to blame --> revoked the policy himself, making it extremely clear every ball was in his court to begin with.
This was just way, way, way too far. I imagine a lot of people who are all about preventing illegal immigration are now taking a step back and realizing Trump took things way too far. Trump now appears hateful rather than "tough". And he reversed it anyway. Theresa May was likely the straw that broke the camel's back.
This is for sure going to go down in history as another Japanese internment camp in the textbooks. This has been a truly inhumane, awful policy. I'm sad that we will carry this blemish forever. We should have been above all this. I'm just glad it is going to be over soon. Your mistake is assuming his followers are rational when they are clearly not.
Trump blamed the Democrats, therefor it is the Democrats faults and anything Trump does to change the situation is him bravely fighting the Democrats to stop them from putting children in cages.
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On June 21 2018 03:44 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2018 03:34 Plansix wrote:
My only hope is that this shines a bright light on the rot that is ICE and the detention facilities that exist in the US. No one could give that issue the time of day before now, so I hope it never stops. We need to end the delusion that illegal immigration is some blight on this country and have real discussions about the best way to handle things like asylum seekers. It seems the plan to process them, collect the fine and give them a tracking bracelet was very effective, so why not just do it that way?
Of course the answer is that the entire debate is so toxic that we can't discuss things like that. Everyone is so scared of the issue that it is never talked about, and because of that citizens are poorly informed about things like "catch and release" system. The thing that we demonized and cited at terrible, when in fact it was likely more effective and cheaper than detaining everyone. This sure did a good job at bringing attention to the whole thing. My hope is that there has been such a wealth of terrible publicity for Trump's whole "Fuck Mexican immigrants" thing that he has a lot of allies who are suddenly hesitant to approach or buy into this stuff. This became an international crisis. Nobody wants to go near this stuff anymore. Trump's wall is essentially doomed at this point. This is such a touchy subject and Trump's wall can easily be lumped together with child internment camps. Trump defended this policy so much that it is impossible to not associate his immigration policy with it. Republicans will need to focus on other issues for a while.
I am with Semo from yesterday, I think this is something he won't recover from. Most of the moderate Republicans I know are now convinced their party will never really recover from this and the inaction they showed.
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United States15977 Posts
Apparently they're pumping these kids in these facilities full of drugs to keep them compliant. Link to filing in the article. Seems like there is a basis for maybe some sort of regimen, but there are A LOT of pills being prescribed. Like old-school psych facility (before we knew better) level.
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On June 21 2018 03:55 ticklishmusic wrote:Apparently they're pumping these kids in these facilities full of drugs to keep them compliant. Link to filing in the article. Seems like there is a basis for maybe some sort of regimen, but there are A LOT of pills being prescribed. https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1009484666339028992
I saw that. I am sure no one will go to jail for child abuse.
Apparently ICE has also been lying to airline workers about the kids and why they are traveling with them, telling them that the children were “on a soccer team” or some other lie. They didn’t identify themselves as a federal agent working for ICE or tell the airline who they were transporting.
This is the shit secret police pull in dictatorships. This agency is a blight on our country.
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On June 21 2018 03:55 ticklishmusic wrote:Apparently they're pumping these kids in these facilities full of drugs to keep them compliant. Link to filing in the article. Seems like there is a basis for maybe some sort of regimen, but there are A LOT of pills being prescribed. https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1009484666339028992
Does the international community not have a child abuse case on its hands here?
I just cannot fathom that we can live in a world where this is allowed to happen
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The old liberal naivety rearing its bloated head
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On June 21 2018 04:03 Aveng3r wrote:Does the international community not have a child abuse case on its hands here? I just cannot fathom that we can live in a world where this is allowed to happen
You live in a country where this is happening right now and no one will be punished for it. No one with power cares about these people and our President ran on a platform of abusing them as a warning to other people trying to flee to America for a better life.
On June 21 2018 04:06 kollin wrote:
The old liberal naivety rearing its bloated head
I straight up hate 28 year old me for being so naïve.
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On June 21 2018 03:34 Plansix wrote:
My only hope is that this shines a bright light on the rot that is ICE and the detention facilities that exist in the US. No one could give that issue the time of day before now, so I hope it never stops. We need to end the delusion that illegal immigration is some blight on this country and have real discussions about the best way to handle things like asylum seekers. It seems the plan to process them, collect the fine and give them a tracking bracelet was very effective, so why not just do it that way?
Of course the answer is that the entire debate is so toxic that we can't discuss things like that. Everyone is so scared of the issue that it is never talked about, and because of that citizens are poorly informed about things like "catch and release" system. The thing that we demonized and cited at terrible, when in fact it was likely more effective and cheaper than detaining everyone.
it's going to be quite tricky to fix the underlying issues in such a way as to allow such discussions to take place.
certainly harder to do that than to devise a rigorous, thoughtful immigration system; but such si the nature of all the problems we face; difficult roots to deal with.
any thoughts?
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This is like in BGH where your ally gives you some minerals to mine then you build a wall and unally them ***
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On June 21 2018 04:17 ragnasaur wrote:
This is like in BGH where your ally gives you some minerals to mine then they build a wall and unally you
This is nothing like that at all
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So why haven't countries started recalling their Ambassadors and revoking Visas for our diplomats?
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On June 21 2018 04:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So why haven't countries started recalling their Ambassadors and revoking Visas for our diplomats?
Because doing that is normally the last step before open hostility. We are not there yet.
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On June 21 2018 04:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So why haven't countries started recalling their Ambassadors and revoking Visas for our diplomats?
If every other country was also led by a figure like Trump, I would expect this to happen.
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EPT
