EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2133
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24430 Posts
On February 21 2020 21:45 farvacola wrote: It's much easier to argue against or ignore climate change when one sets forth an impossible-to-meet standard for any and all climate change messengers, particularly in a country like the US, where monied influence has basically been given First Amendment protection. With shifting parameters too, the joy. It’s ‘if they care about the environment why do they take flights?’ to ‘why isn’t she in school?’ when Greta takes her boat. I’m not sure if it is a conscious mechanism or not, it does strike me as deflecting one’s guilt outwards. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On February 21 2020 12:54 BerserkSword wrote: Oh please lol. In case you have forgotten, Bernie has been saying catastrophic climate change is an existential threat that requires unprecedented amount of effort to prevent. Unless you are suggesting that Bernie is sucidal or does not care about the well being of future generations of Americans and people around the world, it is NOT tu quoque. The fact of the matter is that Bernie IS a top 1% contributor to climate change. He's a multimillionaire whose resource usage, carbon footprint, whatever you wanna talk about, dwarfs that of pretty much every person's on the planet. This is why you don't get to invoke tu quoque in this case, when Bernie's argument rests on the concept of a completely inclusive, MASSIVE effort that should start ASAP to avoid imminent disaster. Unless, again, you're trying to say that Bernie is suicidal and/or does not care about the well being of Americans, in which case he is unfit to be president. Pick your poison. When actual working class Americans see this - a multimillionaire lifetime politician who does not practice what he preaches in the face of supposedly emergent, catastrophic situations - they see a guy who got to enjoy and use the system to get his bread and then make things more difficult for working class Americans to achieve the same thing...and they are right to suspect that either A) things arent as bad as Bernie is saying B) Bernie is correct but he doesn't care and therefore does not have the qualities of a president The hypocrisy means a lot when you hype something up as literal impending doom. You still haven't effectively made your point. You don't get to decide what is and isn't a fallacy. Let's assume I am 900 pounds and actively stuffing 4 cheeseburgers into my face while telling people it is irresponsible to be obese and eat unhealthily. Is my point invalid? No. It is still 100% accurate. You might get salty about someone preaching something they don't adhere to, but it has no influence over whether the argument is valid or not. So even in an extreme case, 900 pounds, they can still preach the benefits of personal health. But since it is Friday, I may as well indulge. Let's assume Bernie's only goal is to prevent climate disaster. How many people would you say Bernie's movement has influenced so far? Remember how in 2015, a $15 minimum wage was outrageous, even to democrats? A $15 minimum wage is basically the lowest requirement for being a democrat at this point. Bernie's movement, especially as it relates to climate change, has even extended to Europe and other countries. Similar to Trump, he is leading a global movement. He has made an incalculable impact by inspiring people and encouraging engagement. Bernie's total carbon output would need to be extraordinarily high in order to offset the impact of going on TV a million times, millions of followers, and stuff like that. There is no argument to be made that Bernie's existence has been a net negative to reducing emissions. Hell, even besides emissions, look at the giant changes even JUST amazon has made (packaging, green energy, employee pay) from Bernie body slamming Bezos over and over again. No matter how you slice it, Bernie's environmental impact has been a huge net positive. Bernie did not start this whole environmentalism shtick once he was elected. He's always been that guy at parties ranting about eating the rich and saving the environment. He's not Elizabeth Warren, Buttigieg or Al Gore. He really means all this stuff and he's meant it long before being a politician. So then consider the steps he took to give his views more power and impact. He ran for various offices and eventually got to the point where he is leading a global movement. The carbon he has spent in hopes of preventing climate change is clearly less than the total environmental impact his movement will have over the next 20 years. If Bernie were to: 1. No cell phone, to reduce climate impact 2. Live off the grid, to reduce climate impact 3. Only eat food grown at home, to reduce climate impact [...] 99. Only walk to political events, and only host them outside, without electricity, just yell a lot, to reduce climate impact... It is safe to say he would not currently be leading a global movement. He has invested carbon to reduce carbon. The idea that he's making things worse is extremely silly. Similarly, MLK made a really big deal over Black People's rights. As a result, a bunch of people died, were beaten and otherwise emotionally damaged because of all the backlash against MLK. However, it is easy to say MLK had an extremely positive impact on the lives of Black People. Compare the lives of Black People pre- and post-MLK. Good job, MLK. And yet at the time, people criticized him by saying he was making things worse and causing a ton of tension by trying to make things better. It is a bad argument that has always been bad. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
Also Trump is still grilling Democrats for being unable to count 200k votes accurately in Iowa. Rank and file Democrats need to tell the DNC they don't like Bernie but they aren't willing to sacrifice democracy to stop him (or maybe they are?). | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
This is important because the critical reporting and math errors in Iowa were in many cases exposed by that person for various caucus sites there. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On February 22 2020 07:40 GreenHorizons wrote: Nevada is having the people in charge of the caucuses sign NDA's https://twitter.com/ShimonPro/status/1230957673920835585 This is important because the critical reporting and math errors in Iowa were in many cases exposed by that person for various caucus sites there. What in the fuck. This is madness | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21528 Posts
On February 22 2020 07:40 GreenHorizons wrote: Nothing says fair and transparent elections like non-disclosure agreements...Nevada is having the people in charge of the caucuses sign NDA's https://twitter.com/ShimonPro/status/1230957673920835585 This is important because the critical reporting and math errors in Iowa were in many cases exposed by that person for various caucus sites there. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On February 22 2020 07:48 Gorsameth wrote: Nothing says fair and transparent elections like non-disclosure agreements... This is the DNC's "we can pick the nominee in a smoke filled backroom" legal argument leaking into their | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On February 22 2020 07:50 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the DNC's "we can pick the nominee in a smoke filled backroom" legal argument leaking into their I think they are testing the waters to see what happens. This meme actually describes me perfectly and I imagine I am not alone.+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zYXr23E.jpg) There are a ton of people who hesitantly supported Clinton and thought to themselves "this was a little fucky, but I'll assume the best, but they better change next time". Now, I have seen plenty, and I am actively incredibly skeptical of the DNC. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12045 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States763 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On February 22 2020 08:38 Nebuchad wrote: Seems quite desperate on their part. Bernie has such a lead that I don't see them being able to rig it if they wanted to, I guess they could make sure that someone else gets 15%? But most polls already have someone at more than 15%, it's not an enormous threat. Looks like they're fighting but they don't know how. And a freaking caucus of all things. The whole point of a caucus is to be rowdy and over-invested. And they are going to try to silence BERNIE supporters at such a thing? Honestly makes me think they have no such intentions. Easier to do this later, during Super Tuesday or something. But then again, Nevada going to Bernie basically means its too late. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
(For those wondering the second Tweet is 'Feel the Bern' translated into Russian.) | ||
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Gahlo
United States35118 Posts
Anyway, Nevada trying to remind everybody why they were 2016's Iowa isn't surprising. I expect every single causcus this year to be a shit show at this point. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24430 Posts
Honestly just gave up halfway through this post. ‘The Russians’ is just a lazy, ridiculous injection of boogeyman to ‘prove’ basically any point anyone wants to attempt to make. Made more ridiculous that it’s Russia. Sadly the Boston Globe is a signup service now but they published a rather neat summation of Russia’s standing in the world here | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Not the first billionaire to campaign for president, but certainly the least self-aware. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24430 Posts
On February 22 2020 09:34 LegalLord wrote: If there’s any candidate who embodies the tone-deaf generic “establishment” criticism of Bernie, it’s definitely Boomberg. He is playing right into the story Bernie is telling, and is none the wiser. He might as well be vocalizing the DNC’s private email conversations about how they don’t like Sanders. Not the first billionaire to campaign for president, but certainly the least self-aware. He’s, by orders of magnitudes a much worse candidate on the trail than I was expecting, thank god. I had thought/feared there would be a degree of slickness to a billionaire who could buy the best PR firms going but he’s so completely tone-deaf he makes a better argument that billionaires are a borderline other species than any amount of firey lefty invective could. | ||
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