|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists.
Be careful now, world. Don't you even deign to entertain the idea of electing a progressive candidate with the goal of progressive policy, or you're just asking for conservative fascism all over again.
I appreciate the condescending truth-bomb you took the time to craft for us, but also no thanks.
|
On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists.
Your invective so cleanly matches up with the substance of your own position that I really have no idea how or why you think what you do with such conviction.
I’m also not sure what an “extremely online far-left internet user base” is, but it sounds like an idea that Biden’s campaign would appreciate. Sarcasm aside, I can’t disabuse you of your sweeping and uncomplicated notion of how “Leftists” operate like some Internet Borg mind, but yes, if Sanders loses to Trump in the general, I will readily concede that Sanders lost.
|
On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists.
lol what a pointless post. You are basically describing your prediction, saying we are idiots for disagreeing, citing nothing, then ask us if we will admit we were wrong and that you were right if a certain outcome ends up happening. What are you even doing? What compels you to just walk in, be condescending and antagonistic and offer nothing? What's going on?
|
Norway28876 Posts
On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists.
Would you concede that they should have gone with Bernie if Trump beats non-Bernie, or will you think to yourself 'Bernie would have lost too, by a bigger margin'? I mean in retrospect everybody is a genius, so if you have two scenarios and the outcome of one of them is known to be bad and the other is 'unknown, but not worse', obviously you go with 'unknown, but not worse', but that's not really relevant.
The key point really is that after 2016, you (the collective you) can't claim to make predictions with any type of authority in what looks like it will be a reasonably tight election either way. And you especially can't point to the failures of a particularly bad social democratic candidate in one country as an indication of the performance of a significantly better and very different social democratic candidate in another country.
The sad thing to me is seeing that it seems like segments of both the progressive and moderate part of the democrat party is trying to hold the other side hostage. Was really hoping the 'will vote for the democrat either way' mentality was gonna stick, but it seems to be slipping already. 
|
You are basically describing your prediction, saying we are idiots for disagreeing, citing nothing,
there's plenty of evidence for that prediction. Trump was largely perceived to be more moderate than Clinton in 2016 and folk theories about mobilization are largely wrong and not really backed up by anything.
And during the 2016 campaign, it showed. Even though people who paid close attention to the obsessive sniping of Bernie Twitter have an impression of Hillary Clinton as the ultimate centrist Dem, voters saw her as largely liberal on the issues. Trump was perceived as conservative, to be sure, but also as less uniformly conservative than Clinton was liberal.
Trump was, similarly, seen as much less conservative than Mitt Romney, John McCain, or George W. Bush, perhaps for the very sensible reason that he’d abandoned the conservative positions on the main issues of Bush-era politics.
If enough moderates were already willing to hold their nose and vote for Trump to avoid what they perceive is an excessively liberal democratic party under Clinton, what are they going to do if you put someone up who wants to raise middle class taxes and double federal government spending.
On February 12 2020 05:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Would you concede that they should have gone with Bernie if Trump beats non-Bernie, or will you think to yourself 'Bernie would have lost too, by a bigger margin'?
I'd be pretty surprised if Biden or Bloomberg wouldn't beat Trump. Less sure about Warren who is also exceedingly liberal. Buttigieg is more moderate but seems to do horrible with African-American voters.
|
On February 12 2020 05:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists. lol what a pointless post. You are basically describing your prediction, saying we are idiots for disagreeing, citing nothing, then ask us if we will admit we were wrong and that you were right if a certain outcome ends up happening. What are you even doing? What compels you to just walk in, be condescending and antagonistic and offer nothing? What's going on?
Maybe he is getting a little bit hot-headed because the previous responses to his posts were completely condescending and borderline insulting him for his opinions that were not exactly the same as held here lately ?
So much for the "we are idiots for disagreeing" since he got shat on when he wrote that he had a different read of the situation.
You all have your opinion, you all can express them, he can think differently and also tell it without being antagonised instantly, and then get complaints that his next posts are more condescending and antagonistic ???
These past few weeks, it looks like if someone if not pro-Bernie, he gets dissed. You all are usually better than that.
From my (also external) point of view : Bernie's ideas are not so left-wing, but for the USA, they are. It might be too much, too fast, and that's merely what he expressed. The "he's a communist §/§/.¨§M¨µ%P" trope, though *false*, will be an issue for some voters. As will be his age, and Buttigieg being gay, etc etc.
What's the issue with expressing this kind of opinion ? Even if you like the guy !
Please continue to listen to other opinions respectfully or rename the thread "Publicly say you root for Bernie 100% or GTFO".
|
On February 12 2020 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +You are basically describing your prediction, saying we are idiots for disagreeing, citing nothing,
there's plenty of evidence for that prediction. Trump was largely perceived to be more moderate than Clinton in 2016 and folk theories about mobilization are largely wrong and not really backed up by anything. Show nested quote +And during the 2016 campaign, it showed. Even though people who paid close attention to the obsessive sniping of Bernie Twitter have an impression of Hillary Clinton as the ultimate centrist Dem, voters saw her as largely liberal on the issues. Trump was perceived as conservative, to be sure, but also as less uniformly conservative than Clinton was liberal.
Trump was, similarly, seen as much less conservative than Mitt Romney, John McCain, or George W. Bush, perhaps for the very sensible reason that he’d abandoned the conservative positions on the main issues of Bush-era politics. If enough moderates were already willing to hold their nose and vote for Trump to avoid what they perceive is an excessively liberal democratic party under Clinton, what are they going to do if you put someone up who wants to raise middle class taxes and double federal government spending. Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Would you concede that they should have gone with Bernie if Trump beats non-Bernie, or will you think to yourself 'Bernie would have lost too, by a bigger margin'? I'd be pretty surprised if Biden or Bloomberg wouldn't beat Trump. Less sure about Warren who is also exceedingly liberal. Buttigieg is more moderate but seems to do horrible with African-American voters.
Surprised if Biden wouldn't beat Trump? Really?
The anti-Clinton vote was about a lot of things but only the most oblivious voters opposed her for leading an "excessively liberal Democratic party". She suffered a lack of turnout by those far to her left and lost Obama (more liberal than her) voters to Trump.
rename the thread "Publicly say you root for Bernie 100% or GTFO"
ngl this is the most hope inspiring thing I've read here in a while. Come a long way from 2016.
|
On February 12 2020 06:15 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 05:38 Mohdoo wrote:On February 12 2020 05:19 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 05:06 farvacola wrote:
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill. It's always a tropical 25 degrees celsius here above the equator but I think an outside perspective might be better than the extremely online far-left internet userbase who thinks the revolution is around the corner. I have just one question, assuming Bernie wins the primary and the gets hammered in the general election, will you actually concede that it might not have been the best idea or is there going to be some other justification? If every online rant about neoliberalism would make left-wing candidates the man for the job I suspect the entire world would be run by democratic socialists. lol what a pointless post. You are basically describing your prediction, saying we are idiots for disagreeing, citing nothing, then ask us if we will admit we were wrong and that you were right if a certain outcome ends up happening. What are you even doing? What compels you to just walk in, be condescending and antagonistic and offer nothing? What's going on? Maybe he is getting a little bit hot-headed because the previous responses to his posts were completely condescending and borderline insulting him for his opinions that were not exactly the same as held here lately ? So much for the "we are idiots for disagreeing" since he got shat on when he wrote that he had a different read of the situation. You all have your opinion, you all can express them, he can think differently and also tell it without being antagonised instantly, and then get complaints that his next posts are more condescending and antagonistic ??? These past few weeks, it looks like if someone if not pro-Bernie, he gets dissed. You all are usually better than that. From my (also external) point of view : Bernie's ideas are not so left-wing, but for the USA, they are. It might be too much, too fast, and that's merely what he expressed. The "he's a communist §/§/.¨§M¨µ%P" trope, though *false*, will be an issue for some voters. As will be his age, and Buttigieg being gay, etc etc. What's the issue with expressing this kind of opinion ? Even if you like the guy ! Please continue to listen to other opinions respectfully or rename the thread "Publicly say you root for Bernie 100% or GTFO".
This 10000000%. This has become an "us vs them" in regards to democratic voters and party affiliates. It's either Bernie or bust as said above, but the level of discourse as tanked to outright condescending tones and insults.
|
In other news, in Roger Stone's court case, the prosecutor who advocated for a 7-9y sentence for lying to congress and witness tampering and intimidation retired from the case, after Trump tweeted the sentence requested by the DOJ was too harsh, and senior DOJ officials concurred (after the fact).
If this is not nakedly interfering with an investigation, what is ?
In a normal world, this would also probably be something akin to an impeachment inquiry for interfering with the separation of powers...
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/former-mueller-prosecutor-withdraws-from-roger-stone-case-after-doj-intervention/
|
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks.
|
On February 12 2020 06:27 Nouar wrote:In other news, in Roger Stone's court case, the prosecutor who advocated for a 7-9y sentence for lying to congress and witness tampering and intimidation retired from the case, after Trump tweeted the sentence requested by the DOJ was too harsh, and senior DOJ officials concurred (after the fact). If this is not nakedly interfering with an investigation, what is ? In a normal world, this would also probably be something akin to an impeachment inquiry for interfering with the separation of powers... https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/former-mueller-prosecutor-withdraws-from-roger-stone-case-after-doj-intervention/ pretty much yeah.
|
Lotta folks resigning from DoJ as we speak, something big may pop off soon, there’s a hint of “Saturday Night Massacre” to this.
|
On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks.
This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it.
|
On February 12 2020 06:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it.
Seems like something for the feedback thread?
On February 12 2020 06:31 farvacola wrote:
Lotta folks resigning from DoJ as we speak, something big may pop off soon, there’s a hint of “Saturday Night Massacre” to this.
Little essence of Reichstag fire too imo.
|
On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks.
No he didn't say that, he said that this might be jumping right into what the Republicans have been preparing against by brainwashing their supporters for a while.
On February 12 2020 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:
Banning fracking, completely eliminating private insurance, he's the real-world version of the strawman republicans have built up. With a good economy, Trump only needs to run attack ads on this stuff and the entire middle class is going to say nope thanks we'll take Trump.
Do not forget in the midterms, there was ALSO a surge of voters on the right (though less than on the left). Their strategy to get people out to vote should not be underestimated, and you need both the left-wing voters AND the ones more on the center, lest they vote for Trump again.
This is not an idiotic post, he is not dissing anyone, just expressing another reading of the situation. You can perfectly disagree and say that as an outsider he shouldn't give his opinion, but there is a way to say it.
This post was not aggressive nor condescending. Much less than yours were. For the record :
On February 12 2020 04:41 farvacola wrote:
Take your politics of wistful Golden Mean projection elsewhere, please and thank you.
aka "you don't think like me, gtfo"
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill.
Remember folks, anyone who talks about elections with reference to some “truth” that they themselves are privy to is making political statements, rather than objective or neutral ones.
aka "anyone making predictions other than me is not objective or neutral, because only I hold the truth, and you're not from here so gtfo (again)".
It's not only on these posts today, it's been increasingly obvious in the past few weeks since the primaries started. Some of you are on steroids, and being pretty extreme if things do not go exactly how you wish they would.
|
On February 12 2020 06:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it.
Don't deny what? People openly disagreeing with a perspective? The complaint is that a lot of people agree with each other and that these people tend to all disagree with people who disagree with them. As a result, people who don't support Bernie don't like feeling so lonely and "piled on"?
What if: A bunch of people all have a similar perspective and all express that perspective? Remember me and Farvacola being frustrated with GH in 2016? Is it possible that a lot of people looked at 2016, thought about a lot of stuff, and have changed their views? What if the DNC's handling of 2016 created a lot of Bernie supporters?
|
On February 12 2020 06:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it.
Lumping everyone in the thread together based on singular characteristics is how nonsense like “echo chamber” gets tossed around while GH and other “Leftists” who supposedly all bully the same people fight with another about x, y, and z. There is a good reason to call out flatfaced political speak masquerading as “truth” of the sort Nyxisto posted, and I’ll fight that ish as hotly today as I did back in 2012 when I had similar arguments with xDaunt, kwisach, and DEB
On February 12 2020 06:38 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. No he didn't say that, he said that this might be jumping right into what the Republicans have been preparing against by brainwashing their supporters for a while. Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:
Banning fracking, completely eliminating private insurance, he's the real-world version of the strawman republicans have built up. With a good economy, Trump only needs to run attack ads on this stuff and the entire middle class is going to say nope thanks we'll take Trump. Do not forget in the midterms, there was ALSO a surge of voters on the right (though less than on the left). Their strategy to get people out to vote should not be underestimated, and you need both the left-wing voters AND the ones more on the center, lest they vote for Trump again. This is not an idiotic post, he is not dissing anyone, just expressing another reading of the situation. You can perfectly disagree and say that as an outsider he shouldn't give his opinion, but there is a way to say it. This post was not aggressive nor condescending. Much less than yours were. For the record : Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 04:41 farvacola wrote:
Take your politics of wistful Golden Mean projection elsewhere, please and thank you. aka "you don't think like me, gtfo" Show nested quote +
This kind of presumptuous neoliberal nonsense is precisely why Bernie is the man for the job. But yes, I hope the warmth that emanates from your magical ability to predict elections occurring in foreign nations keeps you safe from the winter’s chill.
Remember folks, anyone who talks about elections with reference to some “truth” that they themselves are privy to is making political statements, rather than objective or neutral ones.
aka "anyone making predictions other than me is not objective or neutral, because only I hold the truth, and you're not from here so gtfo (again)". It's not only on these posts today, it's been increasingly obvious in the past few weeks since the primaries started. Some of you are on steroids, and being pretty extreme if things do not go exactly how you wish they would.
This is rich. Yes, if you twist the words of my distaste into strangely specific proclamations of self-righteousness, those proclamations would be bad. But, I never said those things, I made fun of the language of certainty being used by someone who has engaged very little with the substance of this thread’s discussions.
Just so we’re clear, I freely admit that my view is flawed, personal, and open to reasonable dispute. But that dispute has to be based on more than stilted ideas of what constitutes a “Leftist” position, and wholesale, uncomplicated “you Bernie Bros are gonna re-elect Trump, socialism will never win” sentiments deserve the disdain they are met with.
One needn’t go back very far in this thread to see me and others saying various candidates other than Bernie would be acceptable. I still disagree with GH on that point to this day, in fact.
|
On February 12 2020 06:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it. Don't deny what? People openly disagreeing with a perspective? The complaint is that a lot of people agree with each other and that these people tend to all disagree with people who disagree with them. As a result, people who don't support Bernie don't like feeling so lonely and "piled on"? What if: A bunch of people all have a similar perspective and all express that perspective? Remember me and Farvacola being frustrated with GH in 2016? Is it possible that a lot of people looked at 2016, thought about a lot of stuff, and have changed their views? What if the DNC's handling of 2016 created a lot of Bernie supporters?
There is a healthy margin between disagreeing and shitting on others then complaining about them.
On February 12 2020 06:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 06:35 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 12 2020 06:28 farvacola wrote:
Puhleeze with this one-sided hand wringing, the dude came in here and claimed that Bernie (and his supporters by implication) had lost his mind by running on an unapologetically left wing platform, and now folks are like “whoa, don’t jump on the guy that’s calling your sanity into question, be nice!”
No thanks. This has happened before he came into the thread. Don't try to deny it. Seems like something for the feedback thread?
Correct, I'll bring it there if it... well, continues.
|
Nouar already posted what I was going to. So I'll leave it at that.
|
This thread has been wall to wall Bernie for a while. All the people who seriously disagreed got bored of having every conversation railroaded by GH, and stopped bothering.
It's annoying but it is what it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
