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On February 03 2020 04:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I love 'worst dissent ever'. You had a civil war, this is nothing.
I meant in our lifetime, and our parents lifetime. While the civil war was at it greatest peak, that was a literal North vs South with only 30 million people. The current issue at hand is on a much larger scale across the nation.
On February 03 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 04:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On February 03 2020 04:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I think that is bunkum. I think you have to support Sanders in the primary if beating Trump is one's top priority and working to nominate anyone else is helping Trump. That said, Nettles is obvi trolling as Neb points out. There is no dissonance whatsoever between supporting sanders 100% in the primary and supporting biden 100% against trump in the general election. I disagree. Biden hasn't even won a primary and he's constantly talking about working with the Republican party (that are acquitting Trump) and being buddies with segregationists. Biden winning the primary is the death knell of electoralism in the US from my perspective.
Biden winning is definitely a tragedy, however, if it's Trump vs Biden, would you still prefer to have Trump?
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On February 03 2020 05:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 04:16 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I love 'worst dissent ever'. You had a civil war, this is nothing. I meant in our lifetime, and our parents lifetime. While the civil war was at it greatest peak, that was a literal North vs South with only 30 million people. The current issue at hand is on a much larger scale across the nation. Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 04:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On February 03 2020 04:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I think that is bunkum. I think you have to support Sanders in the primary if beating Trump is one's top priority and working to nominate anyone else is helping Trump. That said, Nettles is obvi trolling as Neb points out. There is no dissonance whatsoever between supporting sanders 100% in the primary and supporting biden 100% against trump in the general election. I disagree. Biden hasn't even won a primary and he's constantly talking about working with the Republican party (that are acquitting Trump) and being buddies with segregationists. Biden winning the primary is the death knell of electoralism in the US from my perspective. Biden winning is definitely a tragedy, however, if it's Trump vs Biden, would you still prefer to have Trump?
I think electoralism is dead if it is Trump v Biden and my preference is functionally meaningless (blue state). Personally I think this line of argumentation is unconvincing anyway.
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I come from a purple state, so I value my right to vote and the electoral process. I'm not trying to convince anybody, but coming from a purple state, I definitely think my vote helps.
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On February 03 2020 05:58 ShoCkeyy wrote:
I come from a purple state, so I value my right to vote and the electoral process. I'm not trying to convince anybody, but coming from a purple state, I definitely think my vote helps.
Helps what?
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On February 03 2020 05:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 05:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 03 2020 04:16 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I love 'worst dissent ever'. You had a civil war, this is nothing. I meant in our lifetime, and our parents lifetime. While the civil war was at it greatest peak, that was a literal North vs South with only 30 million people. The current issue at hand is on a much larger scale across the nation. On February 03 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 04:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:On February 03 2020 04:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 04:10 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You have to support anyone but Trump, it’s obvious. Let trump win another term and there isn’t going to be a “United States” anymore. The dissent the GOP have created between the country is of magnitudes never seen before. We’re literally at a tipping point where our rights are getting withered everyday, soon enough US citizens can’t leave the country cause of X.
You can literally watch the UK, and see how they’re being broken apart. The same thing is happening here. I think that is bunkum. I think you have to support Sanders in the primary if beating Trump is one's top priority and working to nominate anyone else is helping Trump. That said, Nettles is obvi trolling as Neb points out. There is no dissonance whatsoever between supporting sanders 100% in the primary and supporting biden 100% against trump in the general election. I disagree. Biden hasn't even won a primary and he's constantly talking about working with the Republican party (that are acquitting Trump) and being buddies with segregationists. Biden winning the primary is the death knell of electoralism in the US from my perspective. Biden winning is definitely a tragedy, however, if it's Trump vs Biden, would you still prefer to have Trump? I think electoralism is dead if it is Trump v Biden and my preference is functionally meaningless (blue state). Personally I think this line of argumentation is unconvincing anyway.
I’m curious what you mean by “electoralism” here. Is that the same as “majoritarianism” (i.e. a government decided by majority vote)? And if so, what would make it “dead” in this scenario?
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On February 03 2020 06:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 05:58 ShoCkeyy wrote:
I come from a purple state, so I value my right to vote and the electoral process. I'm not trying to convince anybody, but coming from a purple state, I definitely think my vote helps. Helps what?
Be deciding factor in how my state aligns it's priorities. I may be a single person, but outreach is a bigger part of voting.
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I'm with GreenHorizons in that I think if we have to choose between Trump and Biden, the US is fucked anyway. I'm not an accelerationist, so I'll vote Biden even though I live in a blue state and my vote is irrelevant, but we need some pretty dramatic changes in the next four years. The US is on course to be Wisconsin projected to national scale, where Republicans have an absolute lock on power despite Democrats getting more votes for everything. The timeline for this is 15 to 20 years.
Biden is useless for fixing that. Republican politicians aren't going to stop being the terrible power-mongers they are right now just because Trump is no longer in office. They were bad before Trump was elected, and he certainly hasn't made them reevaluate themselves.
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On February 03 2020 06:04 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm with GreenHorizons in that I think if we have to choose between Trump and Biden, the US is fucked anyway. I'm not an accelerationist, so I'll vote Biden even though I live in a blue state and my vote is irrelevant, but we need some pretty dramatic changes in the next four years. The US is on course to be Wisconsin projected to national scale, where Republicans have an absolute lock on power despite Democrats getting more votes for everything. The timeline for this is 15 to 20 years.
Biden is useless for fixing that. Republican politicians aren't going to stop being the terrible power-mongers they are right now just because Trump is no longer in office. They were bad before Trump was elected, and he certainly hasn't made them reevaluate themselves.
Not to mention Biden isn't even hiding he'd rather work with Republicans (who will back Trump/terrible policy no matter what it seems) than Sanders anyway.
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For the record I also think you should vote for Biden over Trump (if your vote matters), when I said support I meant do more than just state that if someone asks me about my opinion. My position is aligned with Kyadytim's.
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On February 03 2020 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 06:04 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm with GreenHorizons in that I think if we have to choose between Trump and Biden, the US is fucked anyway. I'm not an accelerationist, so I'll vote Biden even though I live in a blue state and my vote is irrelevant, but we need some pretty dramatic changes in the next four years. The US is on course to be Wisconsin projected to national scale, where Republicans have an absolute lock on power despite Democrats getting more votes for everything. The timeline for this is 15 to 20 years.
Biden is useless for fixing that. Republican politicians aren't going to stop being the terrible power-mongers they are right now just because Trump is no longer in office. They were bad before Trump was elected, and he certainly hasn't made them reevaluate themselves. Not to mention Biden isn't even hiding he'd rather work with Republicans (who will back Trump/terrible policy no matter what it seems) than Sanders anyway.
That's all the more reason to hope that Sanders beats Biden in the primary! But in the general election, we 100% cannot afford to have Trump win again, even if that means we end up taking Biden. Biden isn't going to be great for the country (probably not even "good" for the country), but we literally don't have the time to deny the lesser of the two evils (between Biden and Trump) a victory just out of stubbornness. And when I say "literally don't have the time", I'm referring to our current climate change crisis (environmental issues) and the fact that RBG is going to die in the Supreme Court (social and legal issues).
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Northern Ireland25462 Posts
If Sanders doesn’t manage it this time round, GH 2024 yo
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As an independent myself I never understood voting for someone you don’t support and think is actually bad for the country (to those Bernie supporters in this thread who think Biden is bad but would vote for him anyway). You know you can write Bernie’s name in right?
All you do is enable everything you are against. Not just for this election but for years to come.
The electorate can blame itself for being under the vice grip of establishment dems and republicans. Electorate keeps voting for them, literally lol
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On February 03 2020 09:22 BerserkSword wrote:
As an independent myself I never understood voting for someone you don’t support and think is actually bad for the country (to those Bernie supporters in this thread who think Biden is bad but would vote for him anyway). You know you can write Bernie’s name in right?
All you do is enable everything you are against. Not just for this election but for years to come.
The electorate can blame itself for being under the vice grip of establishment dems and republicans. Electorate keeps voting for them, literally lol
You realise that by writing in Bernie he doesn't get enough votes. Biden doesn't get enough votes and Trump gets re-elected right?
Or are you seriously trying to suggest that you could get 51%+ of voters to write in the same name?
The US is not a proportional system. If you don't win you lose and splitting your vote just hands an easy victory to the other side.
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On February 03 2020 09:41 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 09:22 BerserkSword wrote:
As an independent myself I never understood voting for someone you don’t support and think is actually bad for the country (to those Bernie supporters in this thread who think Biden is bad but would vote for him anyway). You know you can write Bernie’s name in right?
All you do is enable everything you are against. Not just for this election but for years to come.
The electorate can blame itself for being under the vice grip of establishment dems and republicans. Electorate keeps voting for them, literally lol
You realise that by writing in Bernie he doesn't get enough votes. Biden doesn't get enough votes and Trump gets re-elected right? Or are you seriously trying to suggest that you could get 51%+ of voters to write in the same name? The US is not a proportional system. If you don't win you lose and splitting your vote just hands an easy victory to the other side.
Yes I realize that.
By voting for a Biden youre just enabling the system that keeps guys like Bernie out. You're giving that system a vote of confidence. The people who run the show see that people will vote for them regardless of how they operate and will continue to do it.
You don't give em your vote, that doesn't happen.
If all the Bernie supporters stood their ground and wrote in Bernie, then it would force the DNC to pay attention. It would mean they cant get away with what they are and have always been doing. If you want actual change this is where it starts. Not throwing in the towel and letting "them" have their way with us.
But of course people actually think Trump is Hitler 2.0 and not just Obama without the warmongering, so they will vote for Biden out of fear I guess. And once again nothing will change.
In my opinion, Bernie reaps what he sows too. He often seems to fall in line at key junctions.
Whether it's backstabbing Ron Paul when they were trying to audit the Fed by saving the Fed from a complete audit.
Whether it's succumbing to BLM thugs when they hijacked his speech.
Whether it's falling in line and supporting Hillary after Hillary and the DNC screwed him in 2016 (that didnt work out too well did it now Bernie? Hillary is now going off on Bernie)
And now Bernie is literally apologizing to Biden for a Bernie associate saying Biden has corruption problems...the same Bernie who vows to fight the corruption of the establishment of which Biden was obviously part of???
Bernie betrays his principles to get some lift in the DNC, but they DNC STILL doesnt respect or support him, and still goes after him.
Anyway, if Democrats want to support the party of super PACs, then by all means.
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Yeah, letting Trump destroy stuff for another 4 years sure shows those Democrats. I'm sure they will be shuddering in their ivory tower while your sinking ever lower into shit.
Totally showing them...
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On February 03 2020 09:22 BerserkSword wrote:
As an independent myself I never understood voting for someone you don’t support and think is actually bad for the country (to those Bernie supporters in this thread who think Biden is bad but would vote for him anyway). You know you can write Bernie’s name in right?
All you do is enable everything you are against. Not just for this election but for years to come.
The electorate can blame itself for being under the vice grip of establishment dems and republicans. Electorate keeps voting for them, literally lol
A bunch of us literally just addressed that. Here:
On February 03 2020 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 06:04 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm with GreenHorizons in that I think if we have to choose between Trump and Biden, the US is fucked anyway. I'm not an accelerationist, so I'll vote Biden even though I live in a blue state and my vote is irrelevant, but we need some pretty dramatic changes in the next four years. The US is on course to be Wisconsin projected to national scale, where Republicans have an absolute lock on power despite Democrats getting more votes for everything. The timeline for this is 15 to 20 years.
Biden is useless for fixing that. Republican politicians aren't going to stop being the terrible power-mongers they are right now just because Trump is no longer in office. They were bad before Trump was elected, and he certainly hasn't made them reevaluate themselves. Not to mention Biden isn't even hiding he'd rather work with Republicans (who will back Trump/terrible policy no matter what it seems) than Sanders anyway. That's all the more reason to hope that Sanders beats Biden in the primary! But in the general election, we 100% cannot afford to have Trump win again, even if that means we end up taking Biden. Biden isn't going to be great for the country (probably not even "good" for the country), but we literally don't have the time to deny the lesser of the two evils (between Biden and Trump) a victory just out of stubbornness. And when I say "literally don't have the time", I'm referring to our current climate change crisis (environmental issues) and the fact that RBG is going to die in the Supreme Court (social and legal issues).
Also... writing in Bernie's name does literally nothing. Might as well write in Mickey Mouse's name.
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On February 03 2020 10:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Yeah, letting Trump destroy stuff for another 4 years sure shows those Democrats. I'm sure they will be shuddering in their ivory tower while your sinking ever lower into shit.
Totally showing them...
What did Trump destroy relative to the Obama Administration, of which Biden was second-in-command?
Like I said, as someone who is on the the right, I have no problem watching the Democrats in disarray. I gave up on the system a long time ago thanks to sentiment like seen in this thread. Nobody is going to change anything here. Democrats are convinced that Trump is the worst president of all time but do not understand that he is Obama without the war mongering and without fear of a catastrophic climate change boogeyman. Republicans don't realize or perhaps turn a blind eye to the fact that Trump broke so many of his promises and is basically Obama-lite.
It's going to come down to Trump vs Biden and people are going to vote for either of them rather than who they actually support. And nothing is going to change. You'll have one of two people elected into office who will perpetuate establishment policies that serve the interests of the elite.
The working class, with the power to vote, reaps what it sows. Too bad it's full of sheep who will only vote for one of the two main party candidates.
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On February 03 2020 10:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 09:22 BerserkSword wrote:
As an independent myself I never understood voting for someone you don’t support and think is actually bad for the country (to those Bernie supporters in this thread who think Biden is bad but would vote for him anyway). You know you can write Bernie’s name in right?
All you do is enable everything you are against. Not just for this election but for years to come.
The electorate can blame itself for being under the vice grip of establishment dems and republicans. Electorate keeps voting for them, literally lol
A bunch of us literally just addressed that. Here: Show nested quote +On February 03 2020 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 03 2020 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2020 06:04 Kyadytim wrote:
I'm with GreenHorizons in that I think if we have to choose between Trump and Biden, the US is fucked anyway. I'm not an accelerationist, so I'll vote Biden even though I live in a blue state and my vote is irrelevant, but we need some pretty dramatic changes in the next four years. The US is on course to be Wisconsin projected to national scale, where Republicans have an absolute lock on power despite Democrats getting more votes for everything. The timeline for this is 15 to 20 years.
Biden is useless for fixing that. Republican politicians aren't going to stop being the terrible power-mongers they are right now just because Trump is no longer in office. They were bad before Trump was elected, and he certainly hasn't made them reevaluate themselves. Not to mention Biden isn't even hiding he'd rather work with Republicans (who will back Trump/terrible policy no matter what it seems) than Sanders anyway. That's all the more reason to hope that Sanders beats Biden in the primary! But in the general election, we 100% cannot afford to have Trump win again, even if that means we end up taking Biden. Biden isn't going to be great for the country (probably not even "good" for the country), but we literally don't have the time to deny the lesser of the two evils (between Biden and Trump) a victory just out of stubbornness. And when I say "literally don't have the time", I'm referring to our current climate change crisis (environmental issues) and the fact that RBG is going to die in the Supreme Court (social and legal issues). Also... writing in Bernie's name does literally nothing. Might as well write in Mickey Mouse's name.
I read your posts.
In my opinion, it's not the correct course of action if you want actual changes. That's all I'm saying.
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United States42777 Posts
Obama is a highly educated statesman with the academic and progressional credentials to establish himself as the smartest man in most rooms before he even opens his mouth. Trump can’t work an umbrella and establishes himself as the stupidest man in any room the moment he opens his mouth. There’s no serious comparison to be had between the two.
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United States24690 Posts
Trump is able to get ahead by having no morals, no integrity, and no interest in obeying ethical norms. Obama can't compete with that.
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EPT
