EPTIn a strange way, Trump is doing what all left wing individuals want and that’s the erosion of American imperial power. Only problem is that he’s just doing his best to possibly choose the worst solution by giving Iran all the rightful justification to develop nuclear weapons, especially after Trump’s handling of North Korea, and making the guy he just killed a martyr and therefore kicking this confrontation for future administrations to deal with.
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
In a strange way, Trump is doing what all left wing individuals want and that’s the erosion of American imperial power. Only problem is that he’s just doing his best to possibly choose the worst solution by giving Iran all the rightful justification to develop nuclear weapons, especially after Trump’s handling of North Korea, and making the guy he just killed a martyr and therefore kicking this confrontation for future administrations to deal with. | ||
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franzji
United States581 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:07 KwarK wrote: It’s like rejoicing at the news that a bad guy in a tv series you don’t watch is dead. This isn't television, if a bad guy who has more bad things planned to kill Americans is dead... why should he not be happy. | ||
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:10 franzji wrote: This isn't television, if a bad guy who has more bad things planned to kill Americans is dead... why should he not be happy. Because it puts the Iran situation in a legitimately worse spot. You killed some dude (who no doubt can be replaced), gave Iran total justification to become a nuclear power as fast as possible and made that dude you killed into a martyr. It doesn’t change the nature of asymmetrical warfare, if Iran wants Americans to die they’re going to keep planning it through other means. All it does is push this confrontation to future administrations. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21368 Posts
On January 09 2020 01:56 Mohdoo wrote: Sanctions that I do not expect the rest of the world to copy and that are therefor not nearly as effective.Just finished watching Trump's statement. Really good statement and super emphasized that he wants zero conflict. Sounds like Iran is likely getting hit with more sanctions and going back to pre-deal economy. I am amazingly relieved to see how all this panned out.....aside from the 737. It is hard to see this whole situation as anything other than a giant win for Trump. Soleimani is dead and that is an amazing thing. If it turns out Iran did accidentally shoot down the 737, it is easy to blame Trump. If this happened from all these missile systems and missile people being on red alert, is is 100% Trump's fault all those civilians died. So while this ended up being a giant military win for Trump, I'd still say this should be considered a point of shame and a giant failure when considering secondary effects, assuming Iran shot down the 737. The US stands alone in this. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11928 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:01 Mohdoo wrote: In the video, Trump calls on Germany, UK, France, China to all go back to previous Iran sanctions. My understanding is that after the Iran deal, those countries got rid of sanctions. If I am correct, that would mean he is saying we'll keep our existing sanctions and push hard for others to increase theirs. I see, thanks. Don't know that Europe is ready to follow Trump on that one. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21368 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:10 franzji wrote: Take some time to read some history.This isn't television, if a bad guy who has more bad things planned to kill Americans is dead... why should he not be happy. To get you started you should read up on the 1953 coup, might give you some insight into why America is hated. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15399 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:07 KwarK wrote: Did you know who Soleimani was a week ago? I’m surprised the world is so much more amazing for you now than then because when I was unaware of his existence life was still pretty good. I’m surprised to see such an emotional response to learning that someone is dead before you knew who he was. It’s like rejoicing at the news that a bad guy in a tv series you don’t watch is dead. I didn't know who he was, but when I heard he died, I looked up who he was, learned who he was, and then decided it was a really great thing for the US military for him to be dead. Sol was not just accomplished but also a big source of inspiration/pride. I don't see why you are making such a big deal out of the fact that I didn't know who he was prior. After reading about him, I concluded it was a big win for the US military. It sounds very similar to if Iran had taken down Patraeus or something. What exactly are you saying is wrong with my reaction? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10601 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:10 franzji wrote: This isn't television, if a bad guy who has more bad things planned to kill Americans is dead... why should he not be happy. Exactly because this isn't a stupid TV show where killing some figurehead solves problems. If anything it created TONS more. What a great victory indeed. But well.. I also tought the celebration when Bin Laden was killed where a disgrace and painted the US as a buch of bloodthirsty morons while having absolutely 0 sympathy for him. | ||
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franzji
United States581 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:21 Velr wrote: Exactly because this isn't a stupid TV show where killing some figurehead solves problems. If anything it created TONS more. What a great victory indeed. I'm arguing not if the killing was a good call, but I'm arguing against him saying that someone shouldn't be happy because they haven't known the person for long. Just because he learned about him recently doesn't mean he can't support it. | ||
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KwarK
United States41991 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:10 franzji wrote: This isn't television, if a bad guy who has more bad things planned to kill Americans is dead... why should he not be happy. The point is that this isn’t like catching Bin Laden. This is someone who was killed and then we were told how amazing it is that he’s been killed and how much the world is a better place for his death. The world cannot be a noticeably better place for his death if you had previously completely failed to notice his life. If you were blissfully unaware of his existence until last week it’s irrational to be happy at the news of his demise as if it lifted a cloud from your life. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15399 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:19 Gorsameth wrote: Take some time to read some history. To get you started you should read up on the 1953 coup, might give you some insight into why America is hated. American can be the 100% bad guys, as a whole, of the situation, while Sol dying is also a good thing for the US military. I don't think I follow your logic. 1. USA does a bunch of bad shit to Iran that makes Iran and the whole region way worse 2. Iran and USA end up as huge enemies because of USA interference, basically the US makes things even worse 3. Iran and USA fight and stuff, where Soleimani ends up being a big name and a very well regarded part of Iran's military 4. USA kills Sol, a huge enemy, so it is a USA win 5. Iran blows up some sand and accidentally shoots down a plane, zero American lives lost 6. This specific spat seems to have been a net positive for USA military Note: Bad for the world, good for USA military. Yes, the entire situation is their making. But looking at the situation for what it currently is, killing a big name general and not losing a single soldier is a fantastic result for USA military. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9348 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:27 Mohdoo wrote: American can be the 100% bad guys, as a whole, of the situation, while Sol dying is also a good thing for the US military. I don't think I follow your logic. 1. USA does a bunch of bad shit to Iran that makes Iran and the whole region way worse 2. Iran and USA end up as huge enemies because of USA interference, basically the US makes things even worse 3. Iran and USA fight and stuff, where Soleimani ends up being a big name and a very well regarded part of Iran's military 4. USA kills Sol, a huge enemy, so it is a USA win 5. Iran blows up some sand and accidentally shoots down a plane, zero American lives lost 6. This specific spat seems to have been a net positive for USA military Note: Bad for the world, good for USA military. Yes, the entire situation is their making. But looking at the situation for what it currently is, killing a big name general and not losing a single soldier is a fantastic result for USA military. I don't think you can measure consequences in such immediate terms. Maybe wait a couple of years and then see if it was good for the military. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On January 08 2020 07:45 farvacola wrote: CNN settling doesn’t actually mean any of that, but it’s nice that you feel vindicated. Well if he admits that settling means you were guilty, let him apply that to Trump's hundreds of settlements, that he should accept as an admittance of guilt :-) Well... One can hope :D | ||
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franzji
United States581 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:25 KwarK wrote: The point is that this isn’t like catching Bin Laden. This is someone who was killed and then we were told how amazing it is that he’s been killed and how much the world is a better place for his death. The world cannot be a noticeably better place for his death if you had previously completely failed to notice his life. If you were blissfully unaware of his existence until last week it’s irrational to be happy at the news of his demise as if it lifted a cloud from your life. Your logic is that because his name wasn't all over national news means that he should not have been killed. Or someone shouldn't be happy about it. It's not like he wasn't on the US's radar for a long time. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-neither-bush-or-obama-killed-iranian-general-qassem-soleimani-2020-1 Makes zero sense. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10601 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28559 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21368 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:27 Mohdoo wrote: You forgot American can be the 100% bad guys, as a whole, of the situation, while Sol dying is also a good thing for the US military. I don't think I follow your logic. 1. USA does a bunch of bad shit to Iran that makes Iran and the whole region way worse 2. Iran and USA end up as huge enemies because of USA interference, basically the US makes things even worse 3. Iran and USA fight and stuff, where Soleimani ends up being a big name and a very well regarded part of Iran's military 4. USA kills Sol, a huge enemy, so it is a USA win 5. Iran blows up some sand and accidentally shoots down a plane, zero American lives lost 6. This specific spat seems to have been a net positive for USA military Note: Bad for the world, good for USA military. Yes, the entire situation is their making. But looking at the situation for what it currently is, killing a big name general and not losing a single soldier is a fantastic result for USA military. 7. Light a new fire of US hatred under a young generation of Iranians that was becoming more friendly towards the west. 8. Iran kills more Americans some time in the future. In a different universe without Trump deal Obama got stayed in place. US-Iran relations warmed up and became more friendly and the 2 sides didn't blow eachother up in the future. But you do you, go celebrate the death of someone you don't know and forget about any future impact this will have.... | ||
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
That’s something I find quite difficult to accept to be honest in this day and age. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15399 Posts
On January 09 2020 02:39 Gorsameth wrote: You forgot 7. Light a new fire of US hatred under a young generation of Iranians that was becoming more friendly towards the west. 8. Iran kills more Americans some time in the future. In a different universe without Trump deal Obama got stayed in place. US-Iran relations warmed up and became more friendly and the 2 sides didn't blow eachother up in the future. But you do you, go celebrate the death of someone you don't know and forget about any future impact this will have.... I agree that the dynamics you're describing are likely to take place, but from what I can tell Sol was more of a Bolton than a TEAM6. The entire country foams at the mouth for Team6, whereas roughly half the country likes Bolton. Regardless, my point is that when we look at the current situation, it is really great for Trump. But I do agree that this is likely to end up as a net negative for the US military over the next 10 years. However, if this just ends up being the way Trump makes his own version of the Iran deal, it could end up fine. Iran seems extremely committed to peace with the US. It is possible the US will be able to get away with this by still making a peace deal with Iran. But I want to be clear that I find your description more probable. On January 09 2020 02:42 Womwomwom wrote: The only way celebrating his death really makes sense is that he really was the sole or major mastermind of Iran’s asymmetrical warfare efforts against American civilians and getting rid of him would solve this issue once and for all. That’s something I find quite difficult to accept to be honest in this day and age. You aren't considering the idea of individual performance or the idea that some people really are special or unique. Not everyone is directly replaceable. While some paths to promotion are less than performance-based, some are. Iran can continue to follow the direction they did when Sol was alive, but it does not mean Iran will be equally effective. Exceptional performance does exist, though I don't know if that was the case with Sol. | ||
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