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On December 08 2019 13:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 08:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 08 2019 05:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 08 2019 04:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 07 2019 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 07:14 iamthedave wrote:On December 07 2019 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 04:31 Xxio wrote:On December 06 2019 22:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Biden's ' No Malarkey' tour kicked off in Iowa with him telling an 84 year old farmer "let’s do pushups together here, man. Let’s run. Let’s do whatever you want to do. Let’s take an IQ test. OK?". Biden is comedy gold, if that ain't malarkey then what is? He's still the frontrunner, somehow.Warren collapsing on RCP poll averages. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/05/joe-biden-iowa-voter-fat I wonder if the DNC will turn away from him. The "gaffs" are adding up and attracting attention. I'd like to see more of this from Biden, just done better. He was great up until the point where he asked about an IQ test. Keep it strictly to bravado, no need for the iamverysmart. I mean... really? If this rates positively on the meter, this election is gonna be a traaaaaaaaainwreck. I don't see the sense behind anyone on here supporting Biden at all. I can see the electoral logic for the less informed, but everyone on here must know Trump will crush Biden like a paper cup and toss him in the trash. He's Trump's perfect kind of opponent. I'm far from pro-Biden, but the general electorate is sub-garbage and they really like shows of strength and masculinity. Imagine being someone who thinks it is a good thing to buy a truck without working in construction or some other profession that uses a truck. That's who is voting. That is why Biden doing shit like this is a good thing is he gets the nomination. I think if it's Biden, there's 80-90% chance trump gets reelected and we're fucked... along with the world. People wanted real change, and Biden represents the norm. People say that now back to the norm is all we want, but I don't believe people really want things to keep going this way... it's unsustainable. If trump wins, I'll seriously consider leaving the country, if Biden wins... I will also seriously consider it... because nothing will really get better here. Wages will still be shit, healthcare shit, housing will eventually crash... nothing here is sustainable unless you are already rich... It's all kind of a mess waiting to fall apart. Who would want to have a kid here with the gun problem in schools? Or even bring a kid into the world when we don't seriously do anything about climate change? I think the only real chance we have is with Bernie, and if he wasn't getting blacked out by the media sooo much, I think the nominee would be him, hands down. They have to suppress him to get some corporate asshole in his place.It should be Bernie, and the slogan should be "real change." Warren also stands a chance is she just rallies with Bernie and stops trying to straddle the fence. Edit: Keeping that in mind I will 1,000% back and vote for any dem over that asshole trump... or any repub. Your edit is how Democrats can, have and will continue to ignore all the stuff you said before it. I don't really think that's true to be honest. Is it that I didn't properly qualify the "this is how" with "a major reason" or something else to denote it alone isn't how or do you reject the argument entirely?
I just don't think that it's going to change much, if the politician is a lib then they're mostly going to do lib stuff, it doesn't really matter how much pressure you got to put on them during the elections. You need better representatives for the left, not a larger influence on the ones you have.
At the end of the day I still think it's true that a full lib is better than a weird mix of liberalism and fascism, so I still think it makes sense to vote for them when those are the only choices and the result of the election is unclear.
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On December 08 2019 22:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 13:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 08 2019 08:34 Nebuchad wrote:On December 08 2019 05:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 08 2019 04:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 07 2019 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 07:14 iamthedave wrote:On December 07 2019 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 04:31 Xxio wrote:On December 06 2019 22:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Biden's ' No Malarkey' tour kicked off in Iowa with him telling an 84 year old farmer "let’s do pushups together here, man. Let’s run. Let’s do whatever you want to do. Let’s take an IQ test. OK?". Biden is comedy gold, if that ain't malarkey then what is? He's still the frontrunner, somehow.Warren collapsing on RCP poll averages. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/05/joe-biden-iowa-voter-fat I wonder if the DNC will turn away from him. The "gaffs" are adding up and attracting attention. I'd like to see more of this from Biden, just done better. He was great up until the point where he asked about an IQ test. Keep it strictly to bravado, no need for the iamverysmart. I mean... really? If this rates positively on the meter, this election is gonna be a traaaaaaaaainwreck. I don't see the sense behind anyone on here supporting Biden at all. I can see the electoral logic for the less informed, but everyone on here must know Trump will crush Biden like a paper cup and toss him in the trash. He's Trump's perfect kind of opponent. I'm far from pro-Biden, but the general electorate is sub-garbage and they really like shows of strength and masculinity. Imagine being someone who thinks it is a good thing to buy a truck without working in construction or some other profession that uses a truck. That's who is voting. That is why Biden doing shit like this is a good thing is he gets the nomination. I think if it's Biden, there's 80-90% chance trump gets reelected and we're fucked... along with the world. People wanted real change, and Biden represents the norm. People say that now back to the norm is all we want, but I don't believe people really want things to keep going this way... it's unsustainable. If trump wins, I'll seriously consider leaving the country, if Biden wins... I will also seriously consider it... because nothing will really get better here. Wages will still be shit, healthcare shit, housing will eventually crash... nothing here is sustainable unless you are already rich... It's all kind of a mess waiting to fall apart. Who would want to have a kid here with the gun problem in schools? Or even bring a kid into the world when we don't seriously do anything about climate change? I think the only real chance we have is with Bernie, and if he wasn't getting blacked out by the media sooo much, I think the nominee would be him, hands down. They have to suppress him to get some corporate asshole in his place.It should be Bernie, and the slogan should be "real change." Warren also stands a chance is she just rallies with Bernie and stops trying to straddle the fence. Edit: Keeping that in mind I will 1,000% back and vote for any dem over that asshole trump... or any repub. Your edit is how Democrats can, have and will continue to ignore all the stuff you said before it. I don't really think that's true to be honest. Is it that I didn't properly qualify the "this is how" with "a major reason" or something else to denote it alone isn't how or do you reject the argument entirely? I just don't think that it's going to change much, if the politician is a lib then they're mostly going to do lib stuff, it doesn't really matter how much pressure you got to put on them during the elections. You need better representatives for the left, not a larger influence on the ones you have. At the end of the day I still think it's true that a full lib is better than a weird mix of liberalism and fascism, so I still think it makes sense to vote for them when those are the only choices and the result of the election is unclear.
I see what you're saying. I don't think most politicians are ideological (other than by stuff like indoctrination) though.
I agree stronger left representatives are needed, the federal government assassinating and imprisoning them with impunity has helped make that difficult both in sustaining and recruiting such figures. But really I'm speaking to those that negotiate by forfeit. The least they could do is not concede to losing before the game even starts.
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Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election:
Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.
Politico
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On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Show nested quote +Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico
"The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine.
Nice try though.
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On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though.
The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt.
(Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.)
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On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.)
Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left?
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On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left?
I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media".
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On December 09 2019 18:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left? I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media".
Almost all corporate news.
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On December 09 2019 18:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 18:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left? I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media". Almost all corporate news.
Yup. It's kinda self-evident that way.
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On December 08 2019 04:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2019 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 07:14 iamthedave wrote:On December 07 2019 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 04:31 Xxio wrote:On December 06 2019 22:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Biden's ' No Malarkey' tour kicked off in Iowa with him telling an 84 year old farmer "let’s do pushups together here, man. Let’s run. Let’s do whatever you want to do. Let’s take an IQ test. OK?". Biden is comedy gold, if that ain't malarkey then what is? He's still the frontrunner, somehow.Warren collapsing on RCP poll averages. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/05/joe-biden-iowa-voter-fat I wonder if the DNC will turn away from him. The "gaffs" are adding up and attracting attention. I'd like to see more of this from Biden, just done better. He was great up until the point where he asked about an IQ test. Keep it strictly to bravado, no need for the iamverysmart. I mean... really? If this rates positively on the meter, this election is gonna be a traaaaaaaaainwreck. I don't see the sense behind anyone on here supporting Biden at all. I can see the electoral logic for the less informed, but everyone on here must know Trump will crush Biden like a paper cup and toss him in the trash. He's Trump's perfect kind of opponent. I'm far from pro-Biden, but the general electorate is sub-garbage and they really like shows of strength and masculinity. Imagine being someone who thinks it is a good thing to buy a truck without working in construction or some other profession that uses a truck. That's who is voting. That is why Biden doing shit like this is a good thing is he gets the nomination. I think if it's Biden, there's 80-90% chance trump gets reelected and we're fucked... along with the world. People wanted real change, and Biden represents the norm. People say that now back to the norm is all we want, but I don't believe people really want things to keep going this way... it's unsustainable. If trump wins, I'll seriously consider leaving the country, if Biden wins... I will also seriously consider it... because nothing will really get better here. Wages will still be shit, healthcare shit, housing will eventually crash... nothing here is sustainable unless you are already rich... It's all kind of a mess waiting to fall apart. Who would want to have a kid here with the gun problem in schools? Or even bring a kid into the world when we don't seriously do anything about climate change? I think the only real chance we have is with Bernie, and if he wasn't getting blacked out by the media sooo much, I think the nominee would be him, hands down. They have to suppress him to get some corporate asshole in his place.It should be Bernie, and the slogan should be "real change." Warren also stands a chance is she just rallies with Bernie and stops trying to straddle the fence. Edit: Keeping that in mind I will 1,000% back and vote for any dem over that asshole trump... or any repub.
Why we fucked though?
The economy is doing well, jobs are being created, stock markets at all time high.
Rather have an asshole that improve things than a gentleman that can't get anything done.
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On December 09 2019 19:58 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 04:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 07 2019 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 07:14 iamthedave wrote:On December 07 2019 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 04:31 Xxio wrote:On December 06 2019 22:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Biden's ' No Malarkey' tour kicked off in Iowa with him telling an 84 year old farmer "let’s do pushups together here, man. Let’s run. Let’s do whatever you want to do. Let’s take an IQ test. OK?". Biden is comedy gold, if that ain't malarkey then what is? He's still the frontrunner, somehow.Warren collapsing on RCP poll averages. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/05/joe-biden-iowa-voter-fat I wonder if the DNC will turn away from him. The "gaffs" are adding up and attracting attention. I'd like to see more of this from Biden, just done better. He was great up until the point where he asked about an IQ test. Keep it strictly to bravado, no need for the iamverysmart. I mean... really? If this rates positively on the meter, this election is gonna be a traaaaaaaaainwreck. I don't see the sense behind anyone on here supporting Biden at all. I can see the electoral logic for the less informed, but everyone on here must know Trump will crush Biden like a paper cup and toss him in the trash. He's Trump's perfect kind of opponent. I'm far from pro-Biden, but the general electorate is sub-garbage and they really like shows of strength and masculinity. Imagine being someone who thinks it is a good thing to buy a truck without working in construction or some other profession that uses a truck. That's who is voting. That is why Biden doing shit like this is a good thing is he gets the nomination. I think if it's Biden, there's 80-90% chance trump gets reelected and we're fucked... along with the world. People wanted real change, and Biden represents the norm. People say that now back to the norm is all we want, but I don't believe people really want things to keep going this way... it's unsustainable. If trump wins, I'll seriously consider leaving the country, if Biden wins... I will also seriously consider it... because nothing will really get better here. Wages will still be shit, healthcare shit, housing will eventually crash... nothing here is sustainable unless you are already rich... It's all kind of a mess waiting to fall apart. Who would want to have a kid here with the gun problem in schools? Or even bring a kid into the world when we don't seriously do anything about climate change? I think the only real chance we have is with Bernie, and if he wasn't getting blacked out by the media sooo much, I think the nominee would be him, hands down. They have to suppress him to get some corporate asshole in his place.It should be Bernie, and the slogan should be "real change." Warren also stands a chance is she just rallies with Bernie and stops trying to straddle the fence. Edit: Keeping that in mind I will 1,000% back and vote for any dem over that asshole trump... or any repub. Why we fucked though? The economy is doing well, jobs are being created, stock markets at all time high. Rather have an asshole that improve things than a gentleman that can't get anything done.
You're fucked because income inequality is increasing. The economy does well but all of that "doing well" benefits more and more a small group of people instead of the whole country and more importantly the workers, and that benefit is increasingly done at the expense of the whole country and the workers. Jobs are created, but they're overwhelmingly terrible jobs, so much so that even with a job a lot of people can't afford to have an unexpected bill, let alone envision building a life.
Look at everything, not just where they tell you to look.
Edit: for Trump specifically you're also fucked because of probable authoritarian drift and lack of addressing climate change.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On December 09 2019 19:58 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 04:31 ShambhalaWar wrote:On December 07 2019 07:22 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 07:14 iamthedave wrote:On December 07 2019 04:59 Mohdoo wrote:On December 07 2019 04:31 Xxio wrote:On December 06 2019 22:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Biden's ' No Malarkey' tour kicked off in Iowa with him telling an 84 year old farmer "let’s do pushups together here, man. Let’s run. Let’s do whatever you want to do. Let’s take an IQ test. OK?". Biden is comedy gold, if that ain't malarkey then what is? He's still the frontrunner, somehow.Warren collapsing on RCP poll averages. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/05/joe-biden-iowa-voter-fat I wonder if the DNC will turn away from him. The "gaffs" are adding up and attracting attention. I'd like to see more of this from Biden, just done better. He was great up until the point where he asked about an IQ test. Keep it strictly to bravado, no need for the iamverysmart. I mean... really? If this rates positively on the meter, this election is gonna be a traaaaaaaaainwreck. I don't see the sense behind anyone on here supporting Biden at all. I can see the electoral logic for the less informed, but everyone on here must know Trump will crush Biden like a paper cup and toss him in the trash. He's Trump's perfect kind of opponent. I'm far from pro-Biden, but the general electorate is sub-garbage and they really like shows of strength and masculinity. Imagine being someone who thinks it is a good thing to buy a truck without working in construction or some other profession that uses a truck. That's who is voting. That is why Biden doing shit like this is a good thing is he gets the nomination. I think if it's Biden, there's 80-90% chance trump gets reelected and we're fucked... along with the world. People wanted real change, and Biden represents the norm. People say that now back to the norm is all we want, but I don't believe people really want things to keep going this way... it's unsustainable. If trump wins, I'll seriously consider leaving the country, if Biden wins... I will also seriously consider it... because nothing will really get better here. Wages will still be shit, healthcare shit, housing will eventually crash... nothing here is sustainable unless you are already rich... It's all kind of a mess waiting to fall apart. Who would want to have a kid here with the gun problem in schools? Or even bring a kid into the world when we don't seriously do anything about climate change? I think the only real chance we have is with Bernie, and if he wasn't getting blacked out by the media sooo much, I think the nominee would be him, hands down. They have to suppress him to get some corporate asshole in his place.It should be Bernie, and the slogan should be "real change." Warren also stands a chance is she just rallies with Bernie and stops trying to straddle the fence. Edit: Keeping that in mind I will 1,000% back and vote for any dem over that asshole trump... or any repub. Why we fucked though? The economy is doing well, jobs are being created, stock markets at all time high. Rather have an asshole that improve things than a gentleman that can't get anything done.
How much of that is really attributable to Trump and his policies specifically though?
But yeah point taken. A lot of people don’t care for the economy in an abstract sense, much less the stock market, it’s how those things interact with their lives and what they value.
As an employee my selling strategy for my company stocks is when I get wind of some scheme that I think is a terrible idea, wait until it’s announced publicly and then sell shortly after and I usually get a nice bump. Not a particularly subtle strategy, if something is going to be bad for employees it almost certainly gets investors hard because their interests are not aligned.
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I recommend to everyone to play EUIV a bit. You will see how the effects of shitty rulers or policies are felt many years after the ruler is gone or policy implemented. How a country can propsper with having an imbecile with stats 0/0/0 (lowest possible) and be in shambles with having ruler with stats 6/6/6 (highest possible) because of things that happened many years before. I am not kidding. That game is realy good in showing how long it takes for a policy change to realy take effect and how prosperity or lack of therof is rooted in past decisions (not present).
And expanding on the above: You will feel true and whole effect of Trump administration many years from now.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
But Trump has the best stats, huge stats! Believe me
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On December 09 2019 18:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 18:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left? I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media". Almost all corporate news.
So would you put, say, the BBC, the New York Times, Haaretz, Fox News, Libération, El Pais, The Times and The Sun under one umbrella term - implying they all have the same agenda?
Just to clarify.
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On December 09 2019 21:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
But Trump has the best stats, huge stats! Believe me
Like 0/1/0 Babbling Buffon, Loose lips, Petty ??? (Those are autentic traits from game) 
More in spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Babbling Buffoon -1 Diplomatic relations Loose Lips -20% Foreign Spy detection Petty -0,05% Mnadate growth Seems pretty accurate in regards to Trump
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On December 09 2019 21:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 18:28 Nebuchad wrote:On December 09 2019 18:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left? I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media". Almost all corporate news. So would you put, say, the BBC, the New York Times, Haaretz, Fox News, Libération, El Pais, The Times and The Sun under one umbrella term - implying they all have the same agenda? Just to clarify.
Agenda might be a bit strong, sounds like they're having a conspiracy. Outlook, ideology, world view... something like that.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On December 09 2019 21:56 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 21:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
But Trump has the best stats, huge stats! Believe me Like 0/1/0 Babbling Buffon, Loose lips, Petty ??? (Those are autentic traits from game) More in spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Babbling Buffoon -1 Diplomatic relations Loose Lips -20% Foreign Spy detection Petty -0,05% Mnadate growth Seems pretty accurate in regards to Trump
This game sounds enjoyable, what’s it called again?
Oh wait Europa Universalis?
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On December 09 2019 22:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 21:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2019 18:28 Nebuchad wrote:On December 09 2019 18:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2019 09:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 09 2019 09:49 Doodsmack wrote:On December 09 2019 08:51 Gahlo wrote:On December 09 2019 08:41 Doodsmack wrote:Interesting to see the media dismissing the idea that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election as "Russian disinformation." Back when it wasn't fatal to their narrative, they were reporting that Ukraine meddled in the election: Donald Trump wasn’t the only presidential candidate whose campaign was boosted by officials of a former Soviet bloc country.
Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found. Politico "The narrative" is that the Russians interfering with the DNC/democratic candidates never happened and it was all Ukrainian, which is supposed to "something, something, profit" into justifying withholding aid from Ukraine. Nice try though. The narrative is that it can't possibly be the case that Ukraine meddled, because that's simply Russian disinformation. Which in turn means that any attempt to investigate Ukraine or Biden is automatically corrupt. And it also means that any attempt to investigate the Obama administration's potential involvement in inducing Ukrainian meddling is corrupt. (Granted, I'm not excusing an attempt to withhold military aid to Ukraine here.) Did noticing neoliberal media was trying to manipulate you with misleading or outright misinformation move you to the right or left? I would love to know who and what is the "neoliberal media". Almost all corporate news. So would you put, say, the BBC, the New York Times, Haaretz, Fox News, Libération, El Pais, The Times and The Sun under one umbrella term - implying they all have the same agenda? Just to clarify. Agenda might be a bit strong, sounds like they're having a conspiracy. Outlook, ideology, world view... something like that.
Other than "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a neoliberal villain", that makes absolutely zero sense. I don't think Libération (property of Rotschild btw) and Fox News have ever agreed on one single thing. Not on economy, not on society, not on politics, not on ideology, not on immigration, not on foreign affairs, nada.
My impression is that for some of you guys, anyone who doesn't have complete left-wing purity is a henchman of neoliberalism with a sinister agenda.
That's the reason I preferred so much this thread when it was not taken hostage by this really dull, binary and repetitive world view, a few months ago.
And that's also why I have a serious alarm signal in my brain everytime I hear the term "neoliberalism". It has meant something once, but nowadays you can be certain that 99% of the time it's used, it's gonna be very, very dumb. It's a bit like "globalists" for the far right.
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On December 09 2019 21:22 Silvanel wrote:
I recommend to everyone to play EUIV a bit. You will see how the effects of shitty rulers or policies are felt many years after the ruler is gone or policy implemented. How a country can propsper with having an imbecile with stats 0/0/0 (lowest possible) and be in shambles with having ruler with stats 6/6/6 (highest possible) because of things that happened many years before. I am not kidding. That game is realy good in showing how long it takes for a policy change to realy take effect and how prosperity or lack of therof is rooted in past decisions (not present).
And expanding on the above: You will feel true and whole effect of Trump administration many years from now.
I agree this is true for most policies historically, but the stock market is historically unprecedented in both how quickly and how arbitrarily it is affected, and for people that believe economy = stock market, it equates to meaningful economic change. The moment it was announced Trump became President, the stock market began soaring; I doubt that it was just coincidental timing from one of Obama’s or Bush’s policy decisions.
In fact, the stock market = economy dynamic is an effective way for the small amount of super-wealthy people to make a warped form of trickle-down economics happen. It’s completely based on perception of the market, so any government policies that happen don’t need to be based on sound economic theory, just sound appealing to the big stock market players (a.k.a. de-regulation). The super-wealthy then make big moves, which encourages the wealthy to make big moves, which encourages everyone else to make moves, and all of a sudden you get zenist’s saying that he’s saved the economy. Then of course since people have more confidence, more small businesses and therefore jobs open up, which means more relevant economic indicators like GDP per capita increase as well. However, wage share (amount of capital going to labor wages) has been steadily decreasing since the 80s, which means a proletariat revolt of some sort is the likely outcome of policies like Trumps; just a matter of when.
TLDR; the stock market fluctuates quickly and to the arbitrary will of the super-wealthy while also having a huge impact on public perception, which goes hand in hand with Trump the con-man and his way of doing things.
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EPT
