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KwarK
United States43966 Posts
On July 17 2019 13:32 Wegandi wrote: Dude, AOC is white AF. This idea that descendants of Spanish folks are non-white is hilarious (which is why white people yelling at other white people because they're Mexican is pretty comical). Not white enough for some. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 17 2019 13:32 Wegandi wrote: Dude, AOC is white AF. This idea that descendants of Spanish folks are non-white is hilarious (which is why white people yelling at other white people because they're Mexican is pretty comical). That's actually how race works. If my parents were Mexican, then it makes me Mexican. If my Mexican parents immigrated to America, that makes them first-generation Mexican Americans. If they have kids born in America, that makes their kids second-generation Mexican Americans... That's how enculturation works. It does not make them "white." Though by your statement, I'm guessing 100%, you are white. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On July 17 2019 14:05 ShambhalaWar wrote: That's actually how race works. If my parents were Mexican, then it makes me Mexican. If my Mexican parents immigrated to America, that makes them first-generation Mexican Americans. If they have kids born in America, that makes their kids second-generation Mexican Americans... That's how enculturation works. It does not make them "white." Though by your statement, I'm guessing 100%, you are white. Is it your supposition that Spanish and Portuguese descendants are not white? I might add that race does not equal country of origin. My original point being, talking about AOC's skin color is fucking hilarious considering she's "white AF". Of course, he's being facetious poking fun at the doofus Donald, but, regardless, this idea that Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans of European (read: Spanish/Portuguese), or Brazilians, et. al. are not white, but "brown" is pretty idiotic if you have two eyeballs and an idea of where Spain and Portugal reside geographically. As for this topic, I think much more people are nativist, than racist. You don't hear people telling Ted Cruz/Allen West to go "back home" because they share a lot of the supposed values of the people who tend to levy such sophistry. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 14:30 Wegandi wrote: Is it your supposition that Spanish and Portuguese descendants are not white? I might add that race does not equal country of origin. My original point being, talking about AOC's skin color is fucking hilarious considering she's "white AF". Of course, he's being facetious poking fun at the doofus Donald, but, regardless, this idea that Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans of European (read: Spanish/Portuguese), or Brazilians, et. al. are not white, but "brown" is pretty idiotic if you have two eyeballs and an idea of where Spain and Portugal reside geographically. As for this topic, I think much more people are nativist, than racist. You don't hear people telling Ted Cruz to go "back home" because he shares a lot of the supposed values of the people who tend to levy such sophistry. Provided you're excluding the indigenous peoples and imported slaves living in those places from those nationalities. | ||
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Yurie
12084 Posts
On July 17 2019 03:26 KwarK wrote: Government issued IDs with a modern approach to infosec and cryptography would resolve this and a hundred other problems. A biometric linked physical token that generates a code that can be matched to the identification provided would be easy enough to execute. SSNs are public info and only serve to identify the individual referred to, doing nothing to verify that the individual saying the SSN is that individual. Half the country is afraid that the government wants to microchip them though so it’s hard to get done. Aren't we paying the phone companies to chip us? All the features such a chip could do is slowly being implemented in smart phones. If you can do payments by phone then you already identity as yourself using it. A lot of people doing their bank stuff online ID using their phone as well. More useful than most ID cards at that point. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10881 Posts
On July 17 2019 14:36 GreenHorizons wrote: Provided you're excluding the indigenous peoples and imported slaves living in those places from those nationalities. Which part of the following didn't you understand? ….this idea that Mexicans, or Puerto Ricans of European (read: Spanish/Portuguese), or Brazilians, et. al. are not white, but "brown" is pretty idiotic if you have two eyeballs and an idea of where Spain and Portugal reside geographically. This American fetish with categorizing everyone and everything is beyond stupid, I don't know why you do it, all I know is that its very obviously harmfull. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 16:08 Velr wrote: Which part of the following didn't you understand? This American fetish with categorizing everyone and everything is beyond stupid, I don't know why you do it, all I know is that its very obviously harmfull. I followed it all? You don't have to tell me it's harmful lol? It's just throughout Latin/South America is a pervasive perception of "whiteness", Brazil in particular has a long history that's primarily European and with a majority Black population, saying "Brazilians are white" erases more than half the population or their distinctly different experiences because of the global fetish for whiteness. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On July 17 2019 16:24 GreenHorizons wrote: I followed it all? You don't have to tell me it's harmful lol? It's just throughout Latin/South America is a pervasive perception of "whiteness", Brazil in particular has a long history that's primarily European and with a majority Black population, saying "Brazilians are white" erases more than half the population or their distinctly different experiences because of the global fetish for whiteness. According to the National Research by Household Sample (PNAD) of 2008, 48.43% of the population (about 92 million) described themselves as White; 43.80% (about 83 million) as Pardo (brown), 6.84% (about 13 million) as Black; 0.58% (about 1.1 million) as Asian; and 0.28% (about 536 thousand) as Amerindian (officially called indígena, Indigenous), while 0.07% (about 130 thousand) did not declare their race.[358]...(with European ancestry being dominant nationwide according to the vast majority of all autosomal studies undertaken covering the entire population, accounting for between 65% to 77%) This took about one second to fact check. The point is, referring to someone like AOC as non-white is fucking stupid (if being done in a serious fashion), which then led me to point out that a very significant part of Mexico and Central/South America are white people of European descent. It's why white people yelling about deporting the "browns" from south of the border is ridiculous lol. You've completely whooshed the point, but whatever. I expected nothing less. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 17 2019 14:05 ShambhalaWar wrote: That's actually how race works. If my parents were Mexican, then it makes me Mexican. If my Mexican parents immigrated to America, that makes them first-generation Mexican Americans. If they have kids born in America, that makes their kids second-generation Mexican Americans... That's how enculturation works. It does not make them "white." Though by your statement, I'm guessing 100%, you are white. What? No really, what? Are you serious or just parodying the insanity of Trumpists? Because if you are, you sure got me. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 17:45 Wegandi wrote: This took about one second to fact check. The point is, referring to someone like AOC as non-white is fucking stupid (if being done in a serious fashion), which then led me to point out that a very significant part of Mexico and Central/South America are white people of European descent. It's why white people yelling about deporting the "browns" from south of the border is ridiculous lol. You've completely whooshed the point, but whatever. I expected nothing less. No I didn't "whoosh" the point... I was pointing out that Europeans helped reinforce ideas of whiteness in Central and South America (so it's not just an "American thing") and in particular Brazil is mostly Europeans distinguishing themselves from indigenous and stolen peoples in their nations. Some of the crude ways they do that is by skin color, facial features, particular lineages etc... The characterizations from both you and Velr leave the distinct impression that in an attempt to identify AOC as white you've neglected (or in Velr's case erased) both the contributions from Europeans to race science in South America and the ongoing attempted "whitening" of Brazil driven primarily by Spanish and Portuguese people. Which is part of the reason why someone like AOC would be seen as non-white isn't exclusively from the US and is driven in large part by the enlightened Spanish and Portuguese people arriving from Europe in the last 100 or so years EDIT: The proportion of people declaring themselves black or mixed race has risen from 44.7% to 50.7%, making African-Brazilians the official majority for the first time. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/17/brazil-census-african-brazilians-majority EDIT2: for the record of course I know white people yelling at other white people is silly because they completely made up the concept in order to exploit other groups of people as "non-white" and groups come and go from whiteness. Jewish people being some of the most transitory. That anyone still identifies as "white" beyond an acknowledgement of the associated sociology (like "society decided I was white and I get all the consequences that come with it, good and bad". is comically sad to me. Race is a social construction within which only white people get to choose how they are identified. The anonymity of the internet allows everyone to be assumed white (and male) until or unless they are confronted with the inevitable "why should I listen to a white guy talk about this?!?" that invariably comes up in online discussions on race (or sex/gender) if they go long enough. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10881 Posts
No one was talking about the exploitation of the native population and slaves in south america or how these countries populations are made up, we were talking about AOC. At which the reason why someone like AOC would be seen as non-white isn't exclusively from the US and is driven in large part by the enlightened Spanish and Portuguese people arriving from Europe in the last 100 or so years AOC would belong to these "enlightened Spanish and Portugese". Why don't you understand this? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 18:27 Velr wrote: W T F has race "science" or anything like that to do with the fact AOC is just friggin white. As white as all Spaniards/Portugese of european decent are. No one was talking about the exploitation of the native population and slaves in south america or how these countries populations are made up, we were talking about AOC. AOC would belong to these "enlightened Spanish and Portugese". Why don't you understand this? lol... I'm not even sure where I'm losing you... "white" is made up. Since it's made up, the same groups of people or even the same person can be white and non-white depending on the observer. The reason that's a thing isn't uniquely American and in the case of the distinction between brown and white people from Central/South/US territories with European heritage is primarily drivin by fair skinned Portuguese and Spanish people that in the case of Brazil specifically were enticed over to "whiten" the country. So the "white people yelling at white people" in many cases is fairer skinned Portuguese and Spanish people yelling at darker skinned Portuguese and Spanish people in a quest to validate their whiteness. Accusing them of mixing with natives, and afro-descendants and so on (though miscegenation is promoted in Brazil still as a way to whiten the population). As of the most recent census the majority of Brazilians don't identify as white despite intense social pressures to be identified as white. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9206 Posts
On July 17 2019 18:05 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/17/brazil-census-african-brazilians-majority You should have spotted the clear error in that conclusion, mixed race doesn't mean African + something else. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 18:39 Dan HH wrote: You should have spotted the clear error in that conclusion, mixed race doesn't mean African + something else. Are you familiar with the one-drop rule? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 18:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Are you familiar with that there is more than "white" and "black" ? There "is" whatever white people (who are an amorphous group) decide there is was sorta my point. It's best summed up as "white" and "non-white" though. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 17 2019 18:57 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So, the answer is "no". The answer is of course, I'm certainly more versed in this topic than you. EDIT: Beyond the social construction (based in fiction) designed to exploit groups of people as "non-white" (and it's fallout) there's no such thing as "whiteness" or being "white". Except as it exists as defined by "white" people, which is an amorphous group in perpetuity. | ||
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