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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
Falling
Canada11279 Posts
On July 05 2019 05:16 NewSunshine wrote: Maybe that's less than 100% charitable, but the moment ICE gets involved in anything I can't take that conclusion as read. Unless you were responding to an ICE employee, that's irrelevant to the meaning. It was a decidedly uncharitable reading. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 05 2019 08:14 Destructicon wrote: You don't know anything about the people coming to your country, it seems prudent to, at the very least background check them in some capacity. And if they've crossed illegally you have even more reason to detain them while you check. I don't get how you could consider these people trustworthy when the very first thing they did was enter illegally. The separation is pretty awful for the legit families that are crossing, they should indeed be detained together while being checked. But that doesn't detract from my previous points. You don't know the people coming in, they could just as well be criminals as they are refugees or migrants. With them crossing illegally you have even more reason to detain them and check their background. Also if you want to play on emotions, what about the families of the US citizens? What about those cases where people get killed because criminals did cross over? Do you really want to say that its not common sense to at the very least check the people coming in to prevent cases like the above from happening? Strong borders makes sense. How much do you sacrifice in terms of principles in the name of security? Do you dip into inhumanity in its name? Do you abandon the very principles your nation is allegedly (i could practically feel GH ready to bounce if I didn't include that word :D) founded on in its name? So many arguments on this thread hinge on the idea that 'the west' is better than the east and the middle east. But that requires a bit of moral fortitude to retain. EDIT: Also, terrible video. The story's fine on its own, but terrible, terrible video. | ||
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kidleaderr
362 Posts
Immigrants are bad! We need to make sure criminals aren't crossing our borders! How about the US families being destroyed by criminal immigrants! USA fuck yeah! July 4th! Got that trump rhetoric down to a science my man, congrats! and FYI saying you've only just started getting into US politics 6 months as if to imply that your opinion is somehow impartial and then immediately blame the democrats is laughable. The peddling of right wing talking points are clear as day my dude. | ||
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Introvert
United States4659 Posts
On July 05 2019 09:11 micronesia wrote: Some reporting I read seems to show that Trump gave a generally on-script apolitical speech. If he had started doing his usual attacks against his political opponents, he likely would have received a hefty bill for the event. Trump's regular, non-rally speeches are generally excellent. I include those on foreign soil as well. Wish we'd see more of it honestly. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22716 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:24 Introvert wrote: Trump's regular, non-rally speeches are generally excellent. I include those on foreign soil as well. Wish we'd see more of it honestly. I particularly liked the part about The Continental Army taking over the airports... If you like the stuff he (struggles to) reads so much, perhaps electing his speechwriters would have been a better route? | ||
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Introvert
United States4659 Posts
 But they are still good, especially in terms of content.edit: and happy 4th everyone! | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22716 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:35 Introvert wrote: His speeches will probably read better in 50 years than they sound now, sure. But give him 4 more years and he might be quite skilled But they are still good, especially in terms of content.It's raw uncut professional propaganda perfected by teams of people over decades, of course it sounds/reads better than the stream of consciousness that typically falls out of the puppet stumbling over reading it (with literally no idea what he's talking about). edit: and happy 4th everyone! F the 4th or as Douglass put it: What... is your 4th of July? I answer: ... your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are..., mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy — a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:24 Introvert wrote: Trump's regular, non-rally speeches are generally excellent. I include those on foreign soil as well. Wish we'd see more of it honestly. You mean the ones where he is following a speech someone else wrote? Obviously he wouldnt look as bad reading those. However, pretty much every instance of him talking off the cuff, especially his one on one news interviews, is embarrassing and borderline (if not fully) incomprehensible. People have posted some of the transcripts from his interviews here and after reading them it's a wonder how the guy can even put on his pants on in the morning. I agree with your premise that if he wants to look less incompetent, he should stick to the script more often. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:07 Falling wrote: Unless you were responding to an ICE employee, that's irrelevant to the meaning. It was a decidedly uncharitable reading. Maybe. And I'm not particularly looking to be a dick here. But I think ICE deserves to eat a bag of dicks for the things they do every day, at the very least, and anytime someone proclaims to defer to their judgment when it comes to handling immigrant families my bullshit meter goes off. And like I said before, I find it incredibly difficult to draw a charitable interpretation regarding our immigrant camps simply because of the default situation. We are not doing this to help them, we're doing it to take a shit on them. And we've certainly talked about it enough times in this thread that our conservative friends know the score. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:39 On_Slaught wrote: This was something I figured he or his handlers would have figured out long ago when he did that scripted SOTU address that CNN claimed showed he was "presidential". Though this would require him to control his impulses enough to stick to the script, and he seems incapable of doing so most of the time.I agree with your premise that if he wants to look less incompetent, he should stick to the script more often. If you think about it, a massive number of issues this administration has had have been caused by him blabbing about something rather than sticking to talking points. The appointment of the special counsel was caused by him saying in an interview that he fired Comey because of "the Russia thing". | ||
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Introvert
United States4659 Posts
On July 05 2019 10:38 GreenHorizons wrote: It's raw uncut professional propaganda perfected by teams of people over decades, of course it sounds/reads better than the stream of consciousness that typically falls out of the puppet stumbling over reading it (with literally no idea what he's talking about). F the 4th or as Douglass put it: I presume you know the incredibly positive things Douglass said about the constitution and the nation in general, but for our international viewers I would encourage them to read that speech in its entirety and not merely one excerpt. Also consider this was given before slavery was abolished. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22716 Posts
On July 05 2019 11:11 Introvert wrote: I presume you know the incredibly positive things Douglass said about the constitution and the nation in general, but for our international viewers I would encourage them to read that speech in its entirety and not merely one excerpt. Also consider this was given before slavery was abolished. I was using his words but taking them as my own to express they are (as excerpted) still true today. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7122 Posts
Makes me want to read more Frederick Douglass, I don't think I've read very much at all since college, sadly. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 05 2019 09:04 IyMoon wrote: Did anyone watch trumps speech? Was it any good? Big crowd? "Was it any good?" Is that a real question? | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 05 2019 08:14 Destructicon wrote: You don't know anything about the people coming to your country, it seems prudent to, at the very least background check them in some capacity. And if they've crossed illegally you have even more reason to detain them while you check. I don't get how you could consider these people trustworthy when the very first thing they did was enter illegally. The separation is pretty awful for the legit families that are crossing, they should indeed be detained together while being checked. But that doesn't detract from my previous points. You don't know the people coming in, they could just as well be criminals as they are refugees or migrants. With them crossing illegally you have even more reason to detain them and check their background. Also if you want to play on emotions, what about the families of the US citizens? What about those cases where people get killed because criminals did cross over? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMm2LZRQp28&t Do you really want to say that its not common sense to at the very least check the people coming in to prevent cases like the above from happening? Strong borders makes sense. Idk if you were trying to address my post, but if you were you didn't. You didn't address deterrence as a motive at all. You are much more likely to be attacked/killed by some white American dude having a bad day then an immigrant. You also might consider looking into the cost of all this on the American tax payer, and how there is an industry massively profiting off these detentions. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/cost-us-immigrant-detention-trump-zero-tolerance-tents-cages.html "Just look at GEO Group, one of the country’s largest private prison corporations. It donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Trump-aligned super PAC, hosted its annual leadership conference at one of Trump’s golf resorts, and just after Trump’s election — its stock soared. Its shares have gained more than 8 percent this year. In ICE’s FY 2018 budget, it says a “Longer Average Length of Stay (ALOS) will also drive the need for additional detention beds.” Now, GEO Group officials say they expect earnings to rise with increased immigration detention time." Groups tied to the trump organization are actively making massive profits after donating to his campaign. And to answer your last question, "checking people at the border" was what we were doing before the trump administration started to detain them. And yes we do want to prevent murder, but you somehow think immigrants are more murders than the white people that already live in our country? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22716 Posts
On July 05 2019 12:32 Zambrah wrote: That excerpt seems to have held up really well for the present day. Makes me want to read more Frederick Douglass, I don't think I've read very much at all since college, sadly. Douglass had his issues as do we all but I also highly recommend Black Reconstruction in America: An Essay Toward a History of the Part Which Black Folk Played in the Attempt to Reconstruct Democracy in America, 1860–1880 which title is pretty self explanatory but it's from the perspective of a Black person (unlike most of the scholarship at the time and beyond). If you want to re/discover some stuff that's glossed over in most educational institutions. EDIT: With almost 100 years still separating us, the words ring eerily true. Past is prologue à la Du Bois: + Show Spoiler + That dark and vast sea of human labor in China and India, the South Seas and all Africa; in the West Indies and Central America and in the United States—that great majority of mankind, on whose bent and broken backs rest today the founding stones of modern industry —shares a common destiny; it is despised and rejected by race and color; paid a wage below the level of decent living; driven, beaten, prisoned and enslaved in all but name; spawning the world's raw material and luxury—cotton, wool, coffee, tea, cocoa, palm oil, fibers, spices, rubber, silks, lumber, copper, gold, diamonds, leather— how shall we end the list and where? All these are gathered up at prices lowest of the low, manufactured, transformed and transported at fabulous gain; and the resultant wealth is distributed and displayed and made the basis of world power and universal dominion and armed arrogance in London and Paris, Berlin and Rome, New York and Rio de Janeiro. Here is the real modern labor problem. Here is the kernel of the problem of Religion and Democracy, of Humanity. Words and futile gestures avail nothing. Out of the exploitation of the dark proletariat comes the Surplus Value filched from human beasts which, in cultured lands, the Machine and harnessed Power veil and conceal. The emancipation of man is the emancipation of labor and the emancipation of labor is the freeing of that basic majority of workers who are yellow, brown and black. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On July 05 2019 09:04 IyMoon wrote: Did anyone watch trumps speech? Was it any good? Big crowd? Yes it was good. Very good. You should watch it. Uplifting. Not full of the political jabs. If Biden were president and had delivered it, the praise in this forum would be effusive, for sure. Crowd was big, but it's a parade with tanks and fighter and bomber flyovers. + Show Spoiler + On July 05 2019 14:32 ShambhalaWar wrote: "Was it any good?" Is that a real question? Some people here do ask questions to find answers. I can't believe the entertainment on this website comes free. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22716 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On July 05 2019 15:20 Danglars wrote: Yes it was good. Very good. You should watch it. Uplifting. Not full of the political jabs. If Biden were president and had delivered it, the praise in this forum would be effusive, for sure. Crowd was big, but it's a parade with tanks and fighter and bomber flyovers. + Show Spoiler + On July 05 2019 14:32 ShambhalaWar wrote: "Was it any good?" Is that a real question? Some people here do ask questions to find answers. I can't believe the entertainment on this website comes free. Uplifting in what sense? | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Having just scoffed at even asking if the speech was good, I think you particularly need a little distance from who said it to look at it objectively. That tone or theme is established very soon after introducing the guests in attendance. Why would someone who can't believe the speech's quality is even a real question be believed to really engage with the speech itself? | ||
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