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On March 25 2019 06:07 Nebuchad wrote:
For the record it's weird that the witch hunt led by 13 angry democrats concluded that Trump didn't do the bad thing. Trump must be extra-innocent, even conspiracies don't manage to pin something on him.
It's just like how he claimed the election was somehow rigged even though he won. And then he went on to again claim it was rigged after because he didn't win the popular vote.
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On March 25 2019 06:01 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2019 05:49 Danglars wrote:
People that want to believe Trump is “putins little bitch” will continue to believe it, despite how many millions of dollars and years are spent trying to find evidence of blackmail or conspiracy. I’m at peace with this undeniable fact.
It looks like when the majority of the report is released, Democrats will seize upon portions that look bad for the President, but not rising to obstruction of justice. It’s not enough for impeachment I wager. It certainly will be repeated endlessly for political gain. The Democrats cannot allow this long of an investigation with no indictments on collusion to stand. It’s political suicide.
Barr is growing on me. The letter was well written. It intentionally disputed the speculation on sealed indictments. It put to rest the major allegations. Good summary.
Now for an hour or two of relief before he launches into criticism of Schiff or McCain or CNN lol. You should know that what happened is literally none of the things Trump says it is. Not yet.
Are you going to delete your account or anything if Barr’s talking out of his ass when he summarized Mueller’s findings on obstruction or collusion? This is literally a case of demanding that nobody contradict your paranoia.
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United States43673 Posts
Trump already admitted to things Barr’s summary excludes. Publicly.
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On March 25 2019 06:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2019 06:01 NewSunshine wrote:On March 25 2019 05:49 Danglars wrote:People that want to believe Trump is “putins little bitch” will continue to believe it, despite how many millions of dollars and years are spent trying to find evidence of blackmail or conspiracy. I’m at peace with this undeniable fact. It looks like when the majority of the report is released, Democrats will seize upon portions that look bad for the President, but not rising to obstruction of justice. It’s not enough for impeachment I wager. It certainly will be repeated endlessly for political gain. The Democrats cannot allow this long of an investigation with no indictments on collusion to stand. It’s political suicide. Barr is growing on me. The letter was well written. It intentionally disputed the speculation on sealed indictments. It put to rest the major allegations. Good summary. https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1109918388133023744Now for an hour or two of relief before he launches into criticism of Schiff or McCain or CNN lol. You should know that what happened is literally none of the things Trump says it is. Not yet. Are you going to delete your account or anything if Barr’s talking out of his ass when he summarized Mueller’s findings on obstruction or collusion? This is literally a case of demanding that nobody contradict your paranoia.
I'm not doing anything. Just giving you a friendly reminder that this report(summary) does absolutely nothing to absolve Trump in the big picture. That you pretend it does is, at best, highly disingenuous.
On March 25 2019 06:13 KwarK wrote:
Trump already admitted to things Barr’s summary excludes. Publicly.
People forget how much super-sketchy shit Trump put on the public record, willingly.
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Barr's judicial opinion on prosecuting a sitting president is well known. Which why a summary which he reaches a conclusion is lacking.
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Barr specifically says that his opinion is not based on that.
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."
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On March 25 2019 05:49 Danglars wrote:People that want to believe Trump is “putins little bitch” will continue to believe it, despite how many millions of dollars and years are spent trying to find evidence of blackmail or conspiracy. I’m at peace with this undeniable fact. It looks like when the majority of the report is released, Democrats will seize upon portions that look bad for the President, but not rising to obstruction of justice. It’s not enough for impeachment I wager. It certainly will be repeated endlessly for political gain. The Democrats cannot allow this long of an investigation with no indictments on collusion to stand. It’s political suicide. Barr is growing on me. The letter was well written. It intentionally disputed the speculation on sealed indictments. It put to rest the major allegations. Good summary. https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1109918388133023744Now for an hour or two of relief before he launches into criticism of Schiff or McCain or CNN lol.
Barring a smoking gun (and even then, not sure), impeachment would not happen in the first term I believe. It's too risky politically, and he has too much support on the republican side. Plus, there less than a year and a half before elections. It's "cleaner" for democrats to just wait and argue that elections will solve the "problem". They risk damaging themselves otherwise. Now, if the other investigations produce credible results against, and he somehow gets through to a second term, all bets are off.
ps : Trump saying "totally exonerated" when the letter says explicitely the contrary on obstruction... :-) Typical "no it was sunny yesterday !"
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On March 25 2019 06:30 Introvert wrote:
Barr specifically says that his opinion is not based on that.
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."
They key sentences in the report are that one, the one saying no conspiracy with Russians, and the one saying no obstruction because there was no underlying crime. Total win for Trump. No ambiguity about it. It’s going to take a while for the left to overcome its cognitive dissonance on this one. Now let’s get on with investigating how this travesty happened in the first place.
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Frankly I'm glad this is over. Few things:
- The collusion argument ended up being a nothing-burger. While there are still plenty of sketchy things surrounding Trump's campaign's connections with Russia, the fact nothing was found after 2 years is enough for me to move on from the 'collusion/conspiracy' subject. This, ofc, does not change the fact that Russia helped elect Trump nor that the original basis for the special counsel's investigation into collusion was properly sought.
- The obstruction thing is more interesting and no doubt Dems will latch onto it (tho frankly I'd move on at this point if I was them ). It blows my mind that the President firing Comey for the express purpose of ending the Flynn investigation does not meet the standards laid out in Barr's letter.
- It's going to be hilarious watching Trump tout Mueller's credibility going forward.
- I'm glad this came out now and not next year. No doubt Trump will get a boost in popularity in the coming months from people who felt he was vindicated. However, there is enough time between now and the election that people will forget about this and the debate will be over substantive issues. Like Plansix said, all that matters now is the election.
- There are still a number of other investigations into Trump and his family (see SDNY). Having said that, I hope those take a backseat to the campaign now. I feel that people have investigation fatigue and it could hurt Dems to talk about them anymore.
- While the conservatives in this thread will have their fun, none of this changes the fact that Trump is the worst president in American history. It won't change the fact he lies 70% of the time, is actively trying to undermine our democratic systems, and temperamentally unfit for office. The conservatives will continue to ignore every embarrassing or terrible thing he does/says whenever they are brought up and instead focus on what he can do for them.
- The media is going to get a big credibility hit for their coverage of the Mueller report, and they deserve it. They built it up into something it was not.
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So the Mueller report was a nothingburger and Trump never colluded with Russia.Is anyone actually surprised? What a joke it’s been.
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On March 25 2019 06:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2019 06:30 Introvert wrote:
Barr specifically says that his opinion is not based on that.
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president." They key sentences in the report are that one, the one saying no conspiracy with Russians, and the one saying no obstruction because there was no underlying crime. Total win for Trump. No ambiguity about it. It’s going to take a while for the left to overcome its cognitive dissonance on this one. Now let’s get on with investigating how this travesty happened in the first place.
For me, it is just a matter of if that's what Mueller's report says. I am not interested in Barr's interpretation. Until we get the full report, it's all just waiting.
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On March 25 2019 06:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So the Mueller report was a nothingburger and Trump never colluded with Russia.Is anyone actually surprised? What a joke it’s been.
Except it doesn't say that. It says they found no evidence of Russia collusion, not that it did not happen. While I'm not going to fight over the Russia thing anymore without new information coming out, we should at least be accurate when talking about what Mueller found.
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Yes, the biggest loser here is the media. The collective journalistic malpractice of the past two years has finally been exposed. Trump was right all along with his “fake news” jabs. The big question in my mind is whether the media will take the time to consider how it was used and misled by the various bad actors pushing the Russiagate hoax. I’m guessing that probably not.
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On March 25 2019 06:30 Introvert wrote:
Barr specifically says that his opinion is not based on that.
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president."
Now, now let’s not let facts get in the way of prejudices. If you didn’t like Trump and his business dealings before this, Mueller will not pay you a personal visit to tell you how hard he tried to find business dealings that hinged on participation in Russia’s influence of the 2016 election. I’m over arguing people out of their suppositions and presumptions of ill intent. Have your “justice perverted” storylines and commiserate amongst everyone that agrees with you how guilty everybody was. My conception of a Republic includes you and your beliefs.
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On March 25 2019 06:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2019 06:30 Introvert wrote:
Barr specifically says that his opinion is not based on that.
"Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president." They key sentences in the report are that one, the one saying no conspiracy with Russians, and the one saying no obstruction because there was no underlying crime. Total win for Trump. No ambiguity about it. It’s going to take a while for the left to overcome its cognitive dissonance on this one. Now let’s get on with investigating how this travesty happened in the first place.
Except that Flynn was found to have actually committed crimes (literally by Mueller himself). How can they argue that there was no crime for Trump to obstruct when Flynn literally committed crimes as member of the Trump administration? We KNOW that Flynn illegally reached out to Russia about sanctions while Obama was president at the behest of the Trump transition team and then lied about it. Why couldn't that be the crime Trump was trying to obstruct?
Unless I'm missing something, that sounds like a bullshit argument from Barr (and maybe even Mueller depending on the context in his report).
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Until the Mueller report explains the dubious actions of people in Trump's inner circle such as Don Jr., Manafort, and Kushner, without even interviewing them no less, Barr's summary doesn't move my opinion on the subject at all.
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On March 25 2019 06:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So the Mueller report was a nothingburger and Trump never colluded with Russia.Is anyone actually surprised? What a joke it’s been.
I'm surprised, yeah. I thought they'd find more.
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On March 25 2019 06:55 Tachion wrote:
Until the Mueller report explains the dubious actions of people in Trump's inner circle such as Don Jr., Manafort, and Kushner, without even interviewing them no less, Barr's summary doesn't move my opinion on the subject at all.
Hey come on now, that meeting with Russians they definitely tried to hide the existence of, then lied about, and then finally admitted the existence of was about adoptions and adoptions only.
It was above board. Above. Board.
/s
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I'm going to go ahead and defer to Seth Abramson again on this one, because his analysis has been very lucid so far. What's going on all over the media right now - and our right-wing friends in this thread are no exception - is a gross mis-representation of what all this actually means. Some important highlights: Mueller actually made no conclusion as to Obstruction, not saying it never happened, and the case of collusion that actually was looked into was not the one most people were thinking it was, it was a very specific charge being investigated.
Barr and the media are drawing information from the report that likely isn't there.
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The report is going to detail exactly what we know, that Trump surrounds himself with talentless grifters tha do shady shit, but there isn’t a smoking gun sufficient to prove a crime.
Edit: Seth Abramson is not the guy I would listen to on any level matter. There are former prosecutors out there that can give better breakdowns.
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EPT
