EPTI personally don't really see much hope anymore. Just a few days ago I was talking to a guy I know who inherited enough money to buy a flat in Vienna. Telling me how clever it is to buy instead of rent because of all the money you can save over a lifetime. Needless to say he is doing his PhD, making half of what I am making and probably ending up with the same at the end of the month due to high income/no property taxes in Austria and him not having to pay rent. That's where we are at. Rich kids telling you they are clever for being capable of doing basic math, while people who work are financing their parents pensions privileges and will never have the money to be "so clever".
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 972
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I personally don't really see much hope anymore. Just a few days ago I was talking to a guy I know who inherited enough money to buy a flat in Vienna. Telling me how clever it is to buy instead of rent because of all the money you can save over a lifetime. Needless to say he is doing his PhD, making half of what I am making and probably ending up with the same at the end of the month due to high income/no property taxes in Austria and him not having to pay rent. That's where we are at. Rich kids telling you they are clever for being capable of doing basic math, while people who work are financing their parents pensions privileges and will never have the money to be "so clever". | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 16 2017 20:29 Mafe wrote: That's confusing. What about the unemployed and not-yet-employed (students mostly)? Basically, the number of "blue collar" workers is borderline negligible or what? Because looking purely at this statistic, there must be about 3 times as many retired people (well voter, to be precise) as there are blue collar workers in order to get to 26% of FPÖ voters. Don't see anything unlikely with that, in the French presidential about ~5 millions of blue collars voted vs ~14 millions of pensioners. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
FPÖ+ÖVP are now holding 58% of the votes. Last election (2013) FPÖ+ÖVP plus the two parties consisting mostly of ex-FPÖ guys (BZÖ and Team Stronach) had 54% of the votes. The election before that (2008) FPÖ+ÖVP+BZÖ had 53%. And so on. Austria has had a right-wing majority since 1986. The actual difference this time is only the ÖVP openly taking over all FPÖ positions to stay in power. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
 ? Doesn't stop the right wing from blaming everything on the leftists. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41269-017-0066-9 Abstract Authoritarianism is a key concept in personality psychology, with a strong impact on political behavior in the United States. Yet, it has rarely been included in studies of political behavior in Europe. Drawing on a nationwide representative sample of the French electorate, we assess the demographic correlates of authoritarianism, as well as its impact on ethnic intolerance, economic conservatism, and propensity to vote for the four major French political parties. Results suggest that authoritarianism is positively associated with both intolerance and economic conservatism. Moreover, there is a strong and positive impact of authoritarianism on the propensity to vote for the far right Front National. Finally, contrary to the common left-wing authoritarianism thesis, we find a significant and negative association between authoritarianism and voting for the far left in France, both with and without taking attitudinal factors into account. These findings extend our understanding of the personality trait of authoritarianism and its impact on vote choice and political attitudes. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
and oh god @ that election result. I honestly don't understand it. I get that Austria is having the same problems that everybody has, but when Greece and Portugal can avoid giving 60% of their vote to the right-wing idiots it must be possible to avoid it in Austria. Not everything is perfect but I really don't know how anybody is supposed to win over these people. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18628 Posts
You do know that Austria was one of the open-borders countries when the refugees first came? ÖVP was part of the government then. I hardly believe that a right wing party would have done that. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
And yes, many people are conservative/rightwing. What a shocker. Move out of your bubble sometimes maybe? Not that i like this but this "outrage" atm is just very telling about how much of a clue leftists/journalists often have about the people they live with. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 17 2017 01:30 Velr wrote: So does switzerland since... 1291 ? Doesn't stop the right wing from blaming everything on the leftists.Well, we had some very leftwing governments in the 70s. People like my parents who came from nothing could go to school and university during those days, because the barriers were lowered, school books were paid for, their parents got reasonable pay rises in blue collar jobs etc. My girlfriend would probably not have been allowed to attend university if it hadn't been free plus some social scholarship. So I guess they are right to blame "the left". Without them the inbred burgeoise upper class could live with much less competition and if we know one thing of right-wingers it is that they absolutely hate skill-based competition. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
Yeah, objectively not better than today but plenty off good shit got done that i doubt would be possible today. Thanks to the USSR the capitalists actually had to grant stuff to the masses to stay on the greener side. I just want 70/80ies style social democracy back... | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On October 17 2017 01:47 Velr wrote: Övp is basically what the CDU used/should be. And yes, many people are conservative/rightwing. What a shocker. Move out of your bubble sometimes maybe? Not that i like this but this "outrage" atm is just very telling about how much of a clue leftists/journalists often have about the people they live with. Going into a coalition with a 26% far right party and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator is what the CDU should do? Nah thanks. Yes having modernised the party opened up some space on the right, but Austria is actually the example that you don't diminish the extremists by copying them. | ||
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Vivax
22297 Posts
On October 17 2017 02:20 Nyxisto wrote: Going into a coalition with a 26% far right party and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator is what the CDU should do? Nah thanks. Yes having modernised the party opened up some space on the right, but Austria is actually the example that you don't diminish the extremists by copying them. Apparently copying the right wing even had the opposite effect. Not only do other parties apparently approve of their positions, they even make themselves look like cheap copies whereas the right wing can claim a sort of novelty or originality for themselves. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
I highly doubt so. And yeah, your countries have coalition goverments and if the hard right wing is occupying 25-30% they deserve big representation and say. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:25 Nyxisto wrote: They didn't magically get to the point where they are. This took years, decades even of normalisation and gradually incorporating former outsider positions into mainstream politics. Governing on opinion polls is terrible. Leaders also have the responsibility to stand up to demands if they're purely populist and a spur of the moment. It also helps that that the generations who dealt with the last rise of the populists and their xenophobia have died off or are out of politics. We will soon be in an era where WW2 will be purely history. And I’m not encouraged by our chances of avoiding the same mistakes. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 17 2017 04:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I wonder how right wing and left wing is being defined here. As I can see it, these terms don't have a lot of meaning as applied to Austria or Germany, except in the case of ultra/far right/left, which deserves terms of their own to describe their policies and political beliefs. In Germany: Left Die Linke: radical left (GUE/NGL) SPD: centre-left (S&D) Greens: centre-left (G/EFA) Right FDP: centre to centre-right (ALDE) CDU/CSU: centre-right to right (EPP) AfD: far-right (ENF) In Austria: Left SPÖ: centre-left (S&D) Greens: centre-left (G/EFA) PILZ: centre-left (?) Right NEOS: centre to centre-right (ALDE) ÖVP: centre-right to right (?) (EPP) FPÖ: far-right (ENF) | ||
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sharkie
Austria18628 Posts
On October 17 2017 04:22 TheDwf wrote: In Germany: Left Die Linke: radical left (GUE/NGL) SPD: centre-left (S&D) Greens: centre-left (G/EFA) Right FDP: centre to centre-right (ALDE) CDU/CSU: centre-right to right (EPP) AfD: far-right (ENF) In Austria: Left SPÖ: centre-left (S&D) Greens: centre-left (G/EFA) PILZ: centre-left (?) Right NEOS: centre to centre-right (ALDE) ÖVP: centre-right to right (?) (EPP) FPÖ: far-right (ENF) You seem to be pretty clueless about Austrian politics. Die Grünen in Austria are far-left and NEOS are centre-left. Pilz is definitely centre and ÖVP is closer to centre than to right | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
 He was the furthest left-wing candidate of all in terms of economic policies. Pro 35-hour week, the biggest inheritance tax of the programs (starting at 500k euro), wealth tax and a lower income tax on the lower incomes. His selling point was simply to take hardcore left-secularism and emphasize two things: a) Islam is the most problematic religeous force that is strictly against a secular state, which has yet to be achieved in Austria and which he is pushing for b) Right-wingers have no interest at all to solve problems concerning integration. Sebastian Kurz who was the former head of integration obviously has no interest to keep these problems low. It's his only big selling point, it would be stupid of right-wing parties to actually do something, which is why despite all the ministries concerned with integration have been occupied by the ÖVP these things have simply not been managed well. That and simply that he is known for being an anti-corruption fighter against all the big parties alike which has drawn some anti-establishment voters to him. Characterizing Neos as center-left is a tpyical right-wing propaganda where everything that isn't conservative is left-wing. They are probably further from the SPÖ than from the ÖVP on most important topics. Their preferred coalition would be (it's not possible, but it's what they say they would be most happy with) ÖVP-Neos-Greens. Typical economically-"liberal" politics with some enviromental projects and some reforms when it comes to state-controlled discrimination out of conservative ideologies. Same stuff happened here, whiteout the left having a majority. It was just really good times. Yeah, objectively not better than today but plenty off good shit got done that i doubt would be possible today. Thanks to the USSR the capitalists actually had to grant stuff to the masses to stay on the greener side. I just want 70/80ies style social democracy back... There is no "objectively". That's the whole point of liberalism. You can't decide for someone else, plain and simple. Your needs and your happyness are children of your time and enviroment. The problem is simply how you create such a dynamic enviroment to allow for that. I personally believe that people like Marx and Mises/Hayek were pretty much alike in their strife for maximum freedom. They simply encountered different problems at their times. But in essence they ask for the same thing: overcoming the government that guarantees for things that cannot be guaranteed for. Marx simply takes it one step further, believing that the moment your society guarantees for property you are heading for crisis or even revolution, because the guarantee is certain to not fit the actual needs (i.e. the prices) of the people eventually. While the neoliberals still believe that the market itself overcomes this problem. If we look at the long time series of the value of the two things that the government guarantees for, which are property and money, I tend to believe Marx is right. The state guarantees for it, so powerful people accumulate it and create a giant bubble that is sucking in the economic power of society without actually providing anything to society. It's a speculation on keeping/increasing its value on its own, based on the simple assumption that you can never lose it - pretty much exactly what the liberterians are arguing, yet they somehow draw the line at property and money and just introduce the esoteric concept of market forces because they have no actual argument why these things should be excluded. Long story short: There is no "objectively" in a free society. There are subjective values and things either cater to your values, or they don't. | ||
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warding
Portugal2395 Posts
On October 17 2017 01:43 Nyxisto wrote: Interesting, it's on sci-hub I'll read it later! and oh god @ that election result. I honestly don't understand it. I get that Austria is having the same problems that everybody has, but when Greece and Portugal can avoid giving 60% of their vote to the right-wing idiots it must be possible to avoid it in Austria. Not everything is perfect but I really don't know how anybody is supposed to win over these people. Portugal is specifuc in that we hold in our collective memory how soulcrushing it is to live for 50 years under a rightwing dictatorship (1926-74). Lately we've had fun news. Our Prime Minister from 2005-2011 was finally formally accused of corruption in a scheme that involved the banking system, the national telecom and construction companies. The evidence seems damning and obverwhelming. The fact that he's accused is a great sign of maturity for our judicial system. It had been accepted that politicians were corrupt and nothing would happen to them - this signals that that might no longer hold. | ||
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