EPTOn January 28 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:
Tell us which reforms are you talking about ?
Tell us which reforms are you talking about ?
They could start with actually taxing rich guys because they still haven't done anything about the tax evasion.
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
They could start with actually taxing rich guys because they still haven't done anything about the tax evasion. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On January 28 2015 03:31 zlefin wrote: Sorry doublemint, but the point you raised in response to mine fails, it still provides no explanations as to WHY it failed, and whether it should be on the IMF or someone else. From what I've seen the IMF only had some broad leeway, not the actual specific authority necessary to do a job like this. Sub, fine then, bring in all those midlevel people, whatever it takes to get an actual decent government., Some info I was able to find. From a post a year and a half ago: Ignored Many Flaws — the report LinkClick for the IMF’s “ex post evaluation” of its role in the Greek bailout. Its mea culpa. And if you thought we were being harsh here, parts of the real thing are excoriating. This is even though the report decides Greece’s exceptional access to IMF lending was justified (generally), and it still says much fiscal adjustment could not be avoided. Policies were “broadly correct”. But it does strongly suggest that debt restructuring should have come sooner. Excerpts follow… On Greece’s fiscal adjustment: On debt restructuring On the Troika One last thing — there is a lot of umm-ing and ahh-ing in this report about what was “politically feasible” for the IMF to do, given the proclivities of the Europeans. Well, those proclivities included open speculation by eurozone governments about booting Greece out of the euro (para 41: “Confidence was also badly affected by domestic social and political turmoil and talk of a Greek exit from the euro by European policy-makers”). That wasn’t working within the limits of the feasible. That was enabling delusion. As a coda here… this is the IMF internal evaluation office’s report on the fund’s disaster in Argentina. Read the two reports side by side. And see how much has changed. Make of it what you will. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 28 2015 03:40 Nyxisto wrote: They could start with actually taxing rich guys because they still haven't done anything about the tax evasion. That's one of Syriza's core point... They want to fight tax evasion and tax rich guys. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On January 28 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote: I love how some people in here are suddenly expert in Greece's history and economy. And the few comments about Syriza being national socialist... really ? Greek were one of the most glorious country in the resistance against nazi germany, and paid a heavy price for it. By the way, the german still owe some money to the Greek (for a forced loan...), so before asking for a punishment on the entire population, maybe ask Germany to pay its debt (something it barely did after the 2nd world war). But what trouble me the most is the hypocrisy : in 1950, the foreign debt of Germany is so high that the US, UK, France decide to lower this debt ; in 1953 it is 21 creditor that accept to lower the German debt by 62 %, and give germany a break for five years and a 30 years delay to pay back its debt (with many other things, such as lower interest rates). And now it's Germany who is all bent on forcing Greeks to pay back its debt. Syriza are only asking Europe what the world did for Germany in 1950... nothing more. But the Europe does not feel any sympathy for one of its own it seems. Not to mention that Germany also defaulted its debt in 1930 and in 1990 : in fact, Germany is the king of debt of the entire XXth century. ![[image loading]](http://static.mediapart.fr/files/imagecache/770_pixels/Mathieu%20Magnaudeix/Capture_decran_2015-01-26_a_13.16.52.png) "What signify his victory for our money ?" The perfect exemple as to why the europe does not work. Tell us which reforms are you talking about ? Thats a nice story and even i disagree with the morality behind it i can see that it is a legit point. And i am ignoring that the agreement of london is more complicated then "pay less" The problem is the economic world of 1953 is a completely different one then the one of 2015. There was no EU, no €URO, no Schengen and most importantly way less globalisation. Lets imagine Merkel stops give a fuck and raises a special tax that every german has to pay 1000 bucks so greece has no depts anymore. Hurray! But this doesnt change the fact that they are tied with countries like Senegal or Swaziland (and Italy unsurprising enough) on the corruption index, that they cant compede at the international market, that doesnt change that paying taxes is viewed as "weird" (really if you are ever making holidays there and ask for a bill you are looked at like you are a green alien with tentacles). | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
Lets imagine Merkel stops give a fuck and raises a special tax that every german has to pay 1000 bucks so greece has no depts anymore. This way of thinking is the problem with modern Germany imo. The Greek debt is 2% of the european debt, seriously. And its current debt has nothing to do with corruption - not that there are no corruption, but it's not the core reason as to why they have such a debt, the core has to do with how flawed the euro is. But I agree, let's just end this euro already. And i am ignoring that the agreement of london is more complicated then "pay less" The problem is the economic world of 1953 is a completely different one then the one of 2015. There was no EU, no €URO, no Schengen and most importantly way less globalisation. Ho yeah ? And 1990 Germany ? And 1930 Germany ? Because it defaulted then too... In 1930 Germany's default was so big it is partly responsible for the great 1929 crisis continuing on. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On January 28 2015 05:23 WhiteDog wrote: This way of thinking is the problem with modern Germany imo. The Greek debt is 2% of the european debt, seriously. And its current debt has nothing to do with corruption - not that there are no corruption, but it's not the core reason as to why they have such a debt, the core has to do with how flawed the euro is. But I agree, let's just end this euro already. Ho yeah ? And 1990 Germany ? And 1930 Germany ? Because it defaulted then too... In 1930 Germany's default was so big it is partly responsible for the great 1929 crisis continuing on. People that just blame the Euro for the crisis always boged me honestly. First of all the concept of a united currency is not new at all. A thousand years ago every region and at some places even some citys had different money but the society back then figured out that if a "country" had only one currency it brings a lot of benefits. The Euro is the same on a much bigger scale. Of course corruption is not the only reason for greeces problems. Its never that one thing that is responsible for what happens to an economic. The "grexit" and the return to the drachmen is just not an option from any point of view. Ask Zimbabwe or Germany between 1919 and 1923 how much fun that was. Besides if history tells us one thing it is that in times of crisis the worst thing you can do is isolation. The solution is not back to the past it is more. More trade, more economic integration and more openess and, in terms of economics more Europe. And less "the Nazi Angela is evil". I am not saying that what the EU did or did not to greece in the past years is right. But we will never know what would have happend if they did nothing and let them bankrupt themself | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
A thousand years ago every region and at some places even some citys had different money but the society back then figured out that if a "country" had only one currency it brings a lot of benefits. The Euro is the same on a much bigger scale. It's entirely different. People who criticise the few that see how flawed the euro is always use half assed argument that rely more on emotion than logic. I did not say common currencies are impossible, I said the euro is flawed. The common currency would entirely possible if we could step back, and build a common state, some common institutions, a non independant central banks, all things that germans and french will not agree upon. The "grexit" and the return to the drachmen is just not an option from any point of view. Ask Zimbabwe or Germany between 1919 and 1923 how much fun that was. In the short term, the grexit could create immense poverty, it's true. But that is only if the european union refuse to facilitate the exit (which would be criminal, but the austerity was already criminal). Besides if history tells us one thing it is that in times of crisis the worst thing you can do is isolation. The solution is not back to the past it is more. More trade, more economic integration and more openess and, in terms of economics more Europe. And less "the Nazi Angela is evil". Here is the core problem maybe, when the entire civilization of europe is resumed, and ultimatly reduced, to "more economic integration and more openess" : the complex of orpheus, you can't look back. Marx's used to define Germany as "the country of philosophy" and France as the country of politics. Now Germany is the country who want to preserve its own accumulated wealth on the back of the poorest european countries and France is defined by its desire to increase its competitivity. Your country and mine have become poor empty souls. This europe is not what I want, and if the past is the only solution to get out of this complete stupidity that is the liberalism and the domination of the capital, then I'll do whatever I can to go back in the past. | ||
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hannahbelle
United States0 Posts
On January 28 2015 00:02 maartendq wrote: Tax collection is generally not done out of altruism (except maybe by those who actually realise that taxes can be used to finance good things, such as healthcare). Tax collection is enforced. The fact that tax evasion was rampant could mean a couple of things: one thing is that the greek state was too weak to enforce tax collection, which means that reforms are needed, or that the greek state, or rather, the ruling party, tollerated it in order to keep its voter base happy, which, again, means that reform is necessary. The irony here is that a reforms can only be done by a strong, effective state, ie. a state that is trusted by the people it governs. Greece is basically stuck in a catch-22 here (although Tsipras might be able to play a role here). Either way, reforms will take a long time because not only do whole institutions need to be reformed, the state will need to show its citizens that it can be trusted, and the citizens will have to learn to trust the state, and start paying taxes. These reforms will also be heavily opposed by vested interests, who profit from the corrupt and dysfunctional situation the country is in now. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The citizenry shouldn't trust the state. Citizens should never trust the state. No one should ever trust an institution that theoretically has absolute power. This mindset is what brought this situation to its current state. Greeks kept trusting their government to fix its problems and this is what happened. Greeks need to show the government that the government should fear the power of the Greek electorate. Unfortunately, it appears that the corruption in Greece is far too rampant for simple reforms to take care of. When corruption is this deeply rooted, there is really only one option remaining... | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 27 2015 13:31 Nyxisto wrote: The reparations were levied because the country started a world war, and for that you usually require the support of the population, so yes they can be held responsible. If your country starts World Wars you can't just sit around and act like "yeah I'm just going to do my nine to five job". Even doing nothing in such situation is already wrong. In case of Greece this isn't about "making a case against the people", but it's about the fact that the Greek population needs to get their politicians in line, it's not a job of some institution or other nation. The Greek population simply seemed indifferent that they've been governed by corrupt bureaucrats and they need to fix that themselves. you are confusing punishment/retribution with reflection and correction. yes, greece needs a new government and the people can do their part to get that in order, but it's not as easy as 'willing it.' takes total institutional overhaul as well as actually new, quality politicians rising up to fill the space. versailles is universally acknowledged to be a very dumb mistake, which is partly why our idea of reconstruction after ww2 was far better informed. what you guys are doing with greece isn't helping at all. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On January 28 2015 07:55 hannahbelle wrote: You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The citizenry shouldn't trust the state. Citizens should never trust the state. No one should ever trust an institution that theoretically has absolute power. This mindset is what brought this situation to its current state. Greeks kept trusting their government to fix its problems and this is what happened. Greeks need to show the government that the government should fear the power of the Greek electorate. Unfortunately, it appears that the corruption in Greece is far too rampant for simple reforms to take care of. When corruption is this deeply rooted, there is really only one option remaining... There is a difference between blind obedience and trust. Blind obedience is always bad, but a country in which the citizens do not trust the very leaders they elected (in case of a liberal democracy) cannot function properly. Even Americans trust their representatives to act in the interest of their voters, trust the supreme court to uphold the constitution etc etc. A society without trust just cannot function. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4925 Posts
On January 28 2015 09:34 oneofthem wrote: you are confusing punishment/retribution with reflection and correction. yes, greece needs a new government and the people can do their part to get that in order, but it's not as easy as 'willing it.' takes total institutional overhaul as well as actually new, quality politicians rising up to fill the space. versailles is universally acknowledged to be a very dumb mistake, which is partly why our idea of reconstruction after ww2 was far better informed. what you guys are doing with Greece isn't helping at all. Let's not forget that Greece got a haircut for their debts in 2012 and favourable interest rates compared to what they would have to pay on the market. I am even for granting some more debt relief, but let`s not forget that this sets a dangerous precedent. What about Portugal, Italy, Spain? Why do these countries have to pay their debts on their own without getting debt relief? Why should governments be careful with their spending in the future? Germany (and the Netherlands, Finland, Austria, Belgium) could maybe relieve Greece of its debts once, but it certainly couldn't relieve all of these countries and others without plunging into an economic crisis. What about countries like Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, which are even poorer than Greece, but are managing their public debt quite well? WhiteDog apparently wants less inequality in our societies, I can get behind that, but throwing more random money at Greece certainly doesn't help in that regard. It's not all evil rich Germans vs poor innocent Greeks as WhiteDog portrays it. First, Germany doesn't rule Europe, it doesn't even dominate the economic policy of the Eurozone anymore, as was shown by the recent ECB decision to buy bonds. The political structures of the EU are clearly not granting Germany any special rights. Second, Greece did profit a lot from the EU. They are by far the biggest net receiver per capita since their entry. Plus Greece did get a lot of cheap loans joining the Euro; which ultimately brought them to the brink of bankruptcy, but all that money must have went somewhere. And now we should just throw more money at them? Obviously it would have to be tied to some assurances, that this time it won't be wasted. (Btw when it comes to average personal wealth German citizens are not really ahead of their counterparts in France or Italy, and their wealth is certainly not "preserved on the backs of the poorer southern countries". That's just a malicious lie.) Maybe my most important point is that Europe does not exist in a vacuum. Not only the EU and the Euro have changed the economic environment of Greece, but so has globalization, probably even more so. What would have happened to Greece outside of the Eurozone? We don't know, but the economic situation would probably not be much better right now. People would just be used to it, because it would never have been as good as it was 10 years ago. With China ascending, falling birth rates and hardly any resources, Europe's place in this world is less secure than ever. The old times of European invincibility are apparently still in some heads, but they are long past. France is not at the top of the food chain anymore, and neither is Germany. Our countries have to adapt to the new circumstances. (Ironically a European economic downfall would make the world more equal.) | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
ATHENS (Reuters) - Leftwing Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras threw down an open challenge to international creditors on Wednesday by halting privatization plans agreed under the country's bailout deal, prompting a third day of heavy losses on financial markets. A swift series of announcements signaled the newly installed government would stand by its anti-austerity pledges, setting it on course for a clash with European partners, led by Germany, which has said it will not renegotiate the aid package needed to help Greece pay its debts. Tsipras, who was congratulated by U.S. President Barack Obama in a phone call for his decisive election victory on Sunday, told the first meeting of his cabinet members that they could not afford to disappoint voters. After announcing a halt to the privatization of the port of Piraeus on Tuesday, for which China's Cosco Group [COSCO.UL] and four others had been short-listed, the government indicated it would put the whole program on hold. It said it would halt the sale of stakes in the Public Power Corporation of Greece (DEHr.AT), Greece's biggest utility, and refiner Hellenic Petroleum (HEPr.AT) and put other planned asset sales of motorways, airports and the power grid on ice. It also plans to reinstate public sector employees judged to have been laid off unfairly, including a group of finance ministry cleaners whose case attracted publicity last year, and announced rises in pensions for retired people on low incomes. Uncertainty over the new government's relations with the European Union went beyond economic policy. A day before the EU is expected to extend sanctions against Russia for six months, Greece's energy minister said the country was against sanctions. Athens had already dissented over a joint statement from the bloc on Ukraine on Tuesday. Tsipras, who met Russia's ambassador to Athens on Monday and the Chinese envoy the next day, told ministers that the government would not seek "a mutually destructive clash" with creditors. But he warned Greece would not back down from demanding a renegotiation of debt. "We are coming in to radically change the way that policies and administration are conducted in this country," he said. Financial markets have taken fright. Greek bank stocks (.FTATBNK) plunged more than 26 percent on Wednesday, taking their cumulative losses since the election to over 40 percent. The overall Athens stock market fell over 9 percent (.ATG), while Greek five-year government bond yields hit around 13.5 percent. This marked their highest level since a 2012 restructuring which wrote off a large proportion of Greek debt held by private investors. Reflecting the concern, Standard and Poor's cut its outlook on Greek sovereign debt to negative from stable. Deputy Prime Minister Yannis Dragasakis sought to reassure investors, saying private investors would be taken into account when the administration implements actions. "There is always turmoil when a government changes," he told reporters. "This government wants the smooth operation of the banks and a rise in their share price." NOT EASY Newly appointed Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, who on Friday meets Jeroen Dijsselbloem, head of the euro zone finance ministers' group, said negotiations would not be easy but he expected they would find common ground. "There won't be a duel between Greece and Europe," he said, at his first meeting with reporters since taking office. Varoufakis said he would meet the finance ministers of France and Italy -- both countries which have pressed for a change of course in Europe from rigid budget orthodoxy -- in the coming days. France has ruled out straight cancellation of Greece's debt, about 80 percent of which is held by other euro zone governments and multinational organizations such as the IMF. However, Paris has said it would be open to talks on making Greece's debt burden more sustainable and Tsipras is expected to meet President Francois Hollande before an EU summit on Feb. 12. The response from Germany was frosty. Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Athens should have discussed the halt to privatizations with its partners before making an announcement. "Citizens of other euro states have a right to see that the deals linked to their acts of solidarity are upheld," he said, adding that it would be the "wrong solution" for Greece to quit the euro but it was up to Athens to decide. Fears that talks between the new government and its creditors would break down, with unforeseeable consequences for Greece's future in Europe, fueled a third successive day of turmoil on the markets. However despite the air of crisis, some observers thought a deal was possible that could satisfy both Athens and Berlin. A French diplomatic source said he expected that the Feb. 28 deadline with European lenders would probably be extended. "It's not decided yet because there needs to be an agreement and the Germans and the Finns must go back to their parliament, but we will probably extend the expiration date of the program," the source said. Tsipras said the government would pursue balanced budgets but would not seek to build up "unrealistic surpluses" to service Greece's massive public debt of more than 175 percent of gross domestic product. Priorities would be helping the weakest sections of society, with policies to attack cronyism and corruption, reduce waste and cut Greece's record unemployment. source | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
Speaking of Russia and Germany. The Russian parliament is to debate the annexation of German Democratic Republic by the Federal Republic of Germany. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
(Reuters) - European Union foreign ministers agreed on Thursday to extend existing sanctions against Russia by six months but were still debating whether to impose new measures, with the new government in Greece sowing uncertainty that exasperated its allies. The worst fighting for five months raged on in eastern Ukraine, with pro-Russian rebels who have disavowed a ceasefire pressing to encircle a government-held garrison town. Britain said it scrambled fighters after Russia flew long-range bombers near its air space, disrupting civilian aviation. It summoned the Russian ambassador for an explanation. Foreign ministers of EU member states held emergency talks in Brussels on Thursday, called after the rebels launched a new advance last week. NATO says the advance, including the shelling of the port of Mariupol that killed 30 civilians on Saturday, is backed by Russian troops, which Moscow denies. Leaders of several EU countries said the new offensive must be met both by an extension of existing sanctions due to expire in coming months and by new stronger measures to increase pressure on Moscow. But Greece's new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, elected this week, has complained about the bloc taking decisions without consulting his government first. Officials in his government have given conflicting statements about their position, with some indicating Athens could oppose more sanctions. An EU diplomat said agreement was reached on a six month extension of asset freezes and travel bans against individuals and firms, but talks were still continuing about adding new names to the sanctions list and preparing new measures. Greece's new Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias was giving nothing away in public. Asked by reporters on his arrival what Greece's intentions were, he said: "I have to make negotiations ... have a good time." Others countries, in particular Germany, did not hide their frustration: "It is no secret that the new stance of the Greek government has not made today's debate any easier," Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said. Steinmeier later held a 20-minute meeting with Kotzias, and a German official said Berlin was "less concerned than before". source Reuters) - Greece could be given more time to pay off its debt if it keeps its budget in balance and maintains promised reforms but the debt will not be written off, French officials said on Thursday. In a series of statements spelling out Paris' position days before talks with the new government of Alexis Tsipras, senior French officials said cancelling Greece's debt was not an option because it would hit other European taxpayers hard. "It's okay to talk about Greek debt, to lighten its burden. It is not okay to cancel Greek debt, because that would mean passing on the burden to French taxpayers," Finance Minister Michel Sapin told lawmakers, adding that France's exposure to Greek debt totaled 42 billion euros (31.57 billion pounds). source A lot of uncertainty atm about Greece =/. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
Its tough to believe that there is some sort of hidden "Putin buys a vote in the EU to devide them" conspiracy that is floating around right now. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2514 Posts
Also both hate the EU. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
On January 30 2015 05:49 Micro_Jackson wrote: Can somebody explain to me why Tsipras seems to "like" Putin? Arent they quite the opposite of the political spectrum (nationalist against wide left winger)? Its tough to believe that there is some sort of hidden "Putin buys a vote in the EU to devide them" conspiracy that is floating around right now. Some in his party looked favourably to Russia and the communistic regime in the cold war. Like already mentioned they're both orthodox but Ukraine is Orthodox as well and a lot of Greeks have a favourable view of both countries. I don't think there's a conspiracy going on either. To me it looks like Tsipras his ego got hurt when the EU released the statement against Russia without consulting him. Add to that he's playing Mr tough guy going into the debt negotiations. Russia is just being opportunistic by offering loans if Greece asks for it. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
You can disagree with Putin, but insulting the Russian, and punishing the whole population, is not the way to go. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 30 2015 09:08 WhiteDog wrote: To be fair, the way the EU behave towards Russia is insulting. 25 million russian died against the germans during WW2, and no representative of Russia were invited to the 70th anniversary of the liberation - by russians - of Auswitch ? You can disagree with Putin, but insulting the Russian, and punishing the whole population, is not the way to go. that's actually not true at all. There were no invitations at all. They just send out "notifiations" leaving it up to every country to decide who attends and if they want to attend. There was no specific invitation for anyone else either. | ||
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