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On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans.
Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries?
How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"?
EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason).
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On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans.
Merkel, is that you?
Btw: Germany is ruled by the conservatives since a decade...
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On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans.
I'm sorry but you're horribly uninformed and/or naive.
Most arabic immigrants in europe have not been integrating at all. In the Netherlands a report was recently released with some hard data.
Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678
- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation.
- Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness)
- After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid.
- Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives.
- Non-western immigrants dominate the crime numbers. From our national bureau of statistics: http://statline.cbs.nl/Statweb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=81947NED&D1=27-28,39,45,49,52-53&D2=1-2&D3=0&D4=0-1,3,5-10&D5=l&HDR=G3,G2,G1&STB=T,G4&VW=T
Marrocan and the (former) dutch antillen/aruba and non-western immigrants have crime numbers 2x to 5x as high as dutch natives while they represent a MUCH smaller group.
So no, integration is NOT working using the silk gloves most EU governments have been using the past 30 years.
And no, bowing to every whim and need of non-western immigrants (like man/women pool separation, demanding non-western women wear headscarfs, REFUSING to pay at a convenience store because there was a girl behind the teller (really happened!) , it all adds up.) does not help integration
And yes there are well integrated non-western immigrants, but they are the vast minority.
And yes not every non-western immigrant is a criminal, but an abnormally large portion of them are.
Please take off the rose tinted glasses and look at the real data, the real statistics because blinding yourself to reality will only increase the integration problems in the future.
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I think Deathstar was being sarcastic. That's the overly PC perspective that people seem to exaggerate. I don't think he's actually saying we can't blame people in their early 20s for raping women.
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On January 08 2016 22:44 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans. Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries? How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"? EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason).
Stealing and sexually assaulting is a no-go pretty much anywhere in the world. They know they're doing something evil, they just don't expect to get caught and that's not a result of Muslim culture. It's a result of being raised in a shitty country with a shitty law enforcement.
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If the immigrants are not integrating into the labor market properly, the solution is not to kick them out or close the border. The solution is to focus more on policies that will integrate these new people. Especially considering long-term challenges many developed European countries currently face.
Let's look at Germany. They have 2 trends currently.
1. Shortage in skilled labor.
2. Declining population.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-grapples-with-growing-shortage-of-skilled-labor-1402064223
Ever increasing cost of labor is a threat to Germany's competitiveness. Now they have an influx of migrants. A million or so new people to integrate into their economy. Integration is a short term problem for a long term payoff. Germany, and many European countries, have for a long time been homogeneous (culturally and ethnically) and so will struggle for some time.
Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. - Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness) - After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid. - Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives.
From the article:
7. Refugees find work
The labor market position of refugees is downright bad. The poor command of the Dutch language plays an important role. The Integration Barometer 2012 Refugee Council shows that only has one job in three refugees - generally temporary work - which is 44 percent dependent on benefits and that in case of a benefit 91 percent require assistance. Somali group is 35 percent unemployed, half of them on welfare. Iranian migrants constitute a positive exception, with 60 percent participation and 15 percent unemployment - but their unemployment rate is still nearly three times higher than among native Dutch.
This is fair. There has been massive failure to teach the immigrants the language of the native population (or the immigrants are unwilling to learn). These people are now in your country. They need to be able to speak Dutch to participate in your economy beyond temporary work. Is it entirely the fault of the immigrants that they have been unable to learn Dutch (especially the children of the immigrants)? There is currently an integration problem. Stop complaining and look for realistic solutions to it.
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On January 09 2016 00:03 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 22:44 Ghostcom wrote:On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans. Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries? How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"? EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason). Stealing and sexually assaulting is a no-go pretty much anywhere in the world. They know they're doing something evil, they just don't expect to get caught and that's not a result of Muslim culture. It's a result of being raised in a shitty country with a shitty law enforcement.
Culture is more regional than religious. "Muslim culture" holds very little meaning except some rather broad strokes (just look at Sunni vs Shia).
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On January 09 2016 00:46 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 00:03 Sent. wrote:On January 08 2016 22:44 Ghostcom wrote:On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans. Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries? How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"? EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason). Stealing and sexually assaulting is a no-go pretty much anywhere in the world. They know they're doing something evil, they just don't expect to get caught and that's not a result of Muslim culture. It's a result of being raised in a shitty country with a shitty law enforcement. Culture is more regional than religious. "Muslim culture" holds very little meaning except some rather broad strokes (just look at Sunni vs Shia).
Does it really matter if it is faith-related or not? If there are this many migrants showing these tendencies, it doesn't matter what the reason is. Europe should be expected to endure waves of rape.
Edit: As I predicted before, Merkel insisting on wildly ridiculous rates of migrant flow has resulted in discrimination against Muslims.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738
Slovakia says it will only accept Christians when it takes in Syrian refugees under a EU relocation scheme.
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On January 09 2016 00:15 Deathstar wrote:If the immigrants are not integrating into the labor market properly, the solution is not to kick them out or close the border. The solution is to focus more on policies that will integrate these new people. Especially considering long-term challenges many developed European countries currently face. Let's look at Germany. They have 2 trends currently. 1. Shortage in skilled labor. 2. Declining population. http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-grapples-with-growing-shortage-of-skilled-labor-1402064223Ever increasing cost of labor is a threat to Germany's competitiveness. Now they have an influx of migrants. A million or so new people to integrate into their economy. Integration is a short term problem for a long term payoff. Germany, and many European countries, have for a long time been homogeneous (culturally and ethnically) and so will struggle for some time. Show nested quote +Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. - Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness) - After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid. - Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives. From the article: Show nested quote +7. Refugees find work
The labor market position of refugees is downright bad. The poor command of the Dutch language plays an important role. The Integration Barometer 2012 Refugee Council shows that only has one job in three refugees - generally temporary work - which is 44 percent dependent on benefits and that in case of a benefit 91 percent require assistance. Somali group is 35 percent unemployed, half of them on welfare. Iranian migrants constitute a positive exception, with 60 percent participation and 15 percent unemployment - but their unemployment rate is still nearly three times higher than among native Dutch. This is fair. There has been massive failure to teach the immigrants the language of the native population (or the immigrants are unwilling to learn). These people are now in your country. They need to be able to speak Dutch to participate in your economy beyond temporary work. Is it entirely the fault of the immigrants that they have been unable to learn Dutch (especially the children of the immigrants)? There is currently an integration problem. Stop complaining and look for realistic solutions to it.
Education is a state run enterprise, mostly, but its actual efficacy depends far more on factors the state can not control. Most importantly, what happens at the home of a child from 0-5. So, sure, maybe the Dutch school system isn't making special accommodations for the native born children of immigrants, however I'd bet the children of immigrants from England and Korea magically don't need accomodations.
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Responding to the sexual assaults in Cologne and Hamburg, Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico has reiterated his aim to allow no Muslims into the country. According to reports, some of the attackers were refugees.
Robert Fico said on Thursday that Slovakia would fight against immigration from Muslim countries to prevent attacks like last year's shootings in Paris and large-scale assaults of women in Germany, which took place on New Year's Eve.
"We don't want something like what happened in Germany taking place in Slovakia," Fico said, adding that the country must "prevent [its] women from being molested in public places."
According to reports by local German newspaper "Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger" and an online preview of investigations by Sunday paper "Welt am Sonntag," Cologne authorities have identified some of the perpetrators in the attacks as been Syrian asylum seekers.
Source
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On January 09 2016 02:15 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 00:46 Ghostcom wrote:On January 09 2016 00:03 Sent. wrote:On January 08 2016 22:44 Ghostcom wrote:On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans. Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries? How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"? EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason). Stealing and sexually assaulting is a no-go pretty much anywhere in the world. They know they're doing something evil, they just don't expect to get caught and that's not a result of Muslim culture. It's a result of being raised in a shitty country with a shitty law enforcement. Culture is more regional than religious. "Muslim culture" holds very little meaning except some rather broad strokes (just look at Sunni vs Shia). Does it really matter if it is faith-related or not? If there are this many migrants showing these tendencies, it doesn't matter what the reason is. Europe should be expected to endure waves of rape. Edit: As I predicted before, Merkel insisting on wildly ridiculous rates of migrant flow has resulted in discrimination against Muslims. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738Show nested quote +
Slovakia says it will only accept Christians when it takes in Syrian refugees under a EU relocation scheme.
That article is from August 2015 - Slovakia said this before the flow even really got going... You have a very loose relationship with cause/effect.
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On January 09 2016 02:53 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 02:15 Mohdoo wrote:On January 09 2016 00:46 Ghostcom wrote:On January 09 2016 00:03 Sent. wrote:On January 08 2016 22:44 Ghostcom wrote:On January 08 2016 22:29 Deathstar wrote:On January 08 2016 21:44 SoSexy wrote:
Are people really surprised that amongst thousands of people there were criminals? I would have been surprised if there were no violence, but I guess the liberal left is too blind to admit it fucked up You're too overly dramatic. It's a small group of black and brown people who did the attacks. These people (many young and still mentally undeveloped) are in a new area and culture and are adjusting. Overall, they are peaceful (I don't know why I need to keep stating the obvious). In due time, these Arabs will be tax payers and contribute to the overall welfare of Germany and native Germans. Are you seriously suggesting that they didn't know that stealing/sexually assaulting women is a no-go in western countries? How about we stop making up excuses for what is completely unacceptable behaviour and absolve criminals of responsibility for their own actions because "they are culturally different"? EDIT: You'll notice that SoSexy didn't say anything about what proportion of are criminals - he is really not being very dramatic by any stretch of imagination. Sure, his last quip towards the left seems overly aggressive, but then again, apparently there have been an attempt at covering up the incident which does suggest that someone is afraid of admitting the facts (for whatever reason). Stealing and sexually assaulting is a no-go pretty much anywhere in the world. They know they're doing something evil, they just don't expect to get caught and that's not a result of Muslim culture. It's a result of being raised in a shitty country with a shitty law enforcement. Culture is more regional than religious. "Muslim culture" holds very little meaning except some rather broad strokes (just look at Sunni vs Shia). Does it really matter if it is faith-related or not? If there are this many migrants showing these tendencies, it doesn't matter what the reason is. Europe should be expected to endure waves of rape. Edit: As I predicted before, Merkel insisting on wildly ridiculous rates of migrant flow has resulted in discrimination against Muslims. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33986738
Slovakia says it will only accept Christians when it takes in Syrian refugees under a EU relocation scheme.
That article is from August 2015 - Slovakia said this before the flow even really got going... You have a very loose relationship with cause/effect.
The initial skepticism was in August because anyone could see what a disaster it could be. Slovakia recently reiterated its decision saying it doesn't want disasters like Cologne. Merkel was the one to initially make ridiculous claims of how the whole EU would be taking in tons of refugees. If her requests were more reasonable and workable, countries wouldn't have immediately slammed their doors shut.
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On January 09 2016 00:15 Deathstar wrote:If the immigrants are not integrating into the labor market properly, the solution is not to kick them out or close the border. The solution is to focus more on policies that will integrate these new people. Especially considering long-term challenges many developed European countries currently face. Let's look at Germany. They have 2 trends currently. 1. Shortage in skilled labor. 2. Declining population. http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-grapples-with-growing-shortage-of-skilled-labor-1402064223Ever increasing cost of labor is a threat to Germany's competitiveness. Now they have an influx of migrants. A million or so new people to integrate into their economy. Integration is a short term problem for a long term payoff. Germany, and many European countries, have for a long time been homogeneous (culturally and ethnically) and so will struggle for some time. Show nested quote +Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. - Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness) - After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid. - Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives. From the article: Show nested quote +7. Refugees find work
The labor market position of refugees is downright bad. The poor command of the Dutch language plays an important role. The Integration Barometer 2012 Refugee Council shows that only has one job in three refugees - generally temporary work - which is 44 percent dependent on benefits and that in case of a benefit 91 percent require assistance. Somali group is 35 percent unemployed, half of them on welfare. Iranian migrants constitute a positive exception, with 60 percent participation and 15 percent unemployment - but their unemployment rate is still nearly three times higher than among native Dutch. This is fair. There has been massive failure to teach the immigrants the language of the native population (or the immigrants are unwilling to learn). These people are now in your country. They need to be able to speak Dutch to participate in your economy beyond temporary work. Is it entirely the fault of the immigrants that they have been unable to learn Dutch (especially the children of the immigrants)? There is currently an integration problem. Stop complaining and look for realistic solutions to it.
Need to up the incentives then. Better education easily avalible yes but how about no more interpreters for goverment services and no social welfare unless you speak the language or you are currently learning and improving. Guess dutch citizens would learn the language pretty damn fast if that was the point.
I personally find it completly ridiculus that I meet people every day who are citizens, have lived in Sweden for over 10 years and still require an interpreter. Obviously on welfare. I also meet people coming for university and who speak accepteble Swedish after as little as 6 months which they had to learn on their own while studying other things full time or being phd students. Obviously people who go to mandatory language education full time and dont learn it in 10 years do not give a shit. And its because we let them. If we told them to adapt or get fucked they would learn.
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On January 09 2016 03:37 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 00:15 Deathstar wrote:If the immigrants are not integrating into the labor market properly, the solution is not to kick them out or close the border. The solution is to focus more on policies that will integrate these new people. Especially considering long-term challenges many developed European countries currently face. Let's look at Germany. They have 2 trends currently. 1. Shortage in skilled labor. 2. Declining population. http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-grapples-with-growing-shortage-of-skilled-labor-1402064223Ever increasing cost of labor is a threat to Germany's competitiveness. Now they have an influx of migrants. A million or so new people to integrate into their economy. Integration is a short term problem for a long term payoff. Germany, and many European countries, have for a long time been homogeneous (culturally and ethnically) and so will struggle for some time. Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. - Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness) - After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid. - Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives. From the article: 7. Refugees find work
The labor market position of refugees is downright bad. The poor command of the Dutch language plays an important role. The Integration Barometer 2012 Refugee Council shows that only has one job in three refugees - generally temporary work - which is 44 percent dependent on benefits and that in case of a benefit 91 percent require assistance. Somali group is 35 percent unemployed, half of them on welfare. Iranian migrants constitute a positive exception, with 60 percent participation and 15 percent unemployment - but their unemployment rate is still nearly three times higher than among native Dutch. This is fair. There has been massive failure to teach the immigrants the language of the native population (or the immigrants are unwilling to learn). These people are now in your country. They need to be able to speak Dutch to participate in your economy beyond temporary work. Is it entirely the fault of the immigrants that they have been unable to learn Dutch (especially the children of the immigrants)? There is currently an integration problem. Stop complaining and look for realistic solutions to it. Need to up the incentives then. Better education easily avalible yes but how about no more interpreters for goverment services and no social welfare unless you speak the language or you are currently learning and improving. Guess dutch citizens would learn the language pretty damn fast if that was the point. I personally find it completly ridiculus that I meet people every day who are citizens, have lived in Sweden for over 10 years and still require an interpreter. Obviously on welfare. I also meet people coming for university and who speak accepteble Swedish after as little as 6 months which they had to learn on their own while studying other things full time or being phd students. Obviously people who go to mandatory language education full time and dont learn it in 10 years do not give a shit. And its because we let them. If we told them to adapt or get fucked they would learn.
WEll, I'd wager that your average PhD student is more resourceful than the average migrant but in general I agree with the sentiment. In both Germany and the UK I've encountered a number of immigrants, and even more worryingly their children, who aren't capable of speaking the respective official language at a satisfactory level. Always a real disappointment in humanity to see people live like that. :/
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On January 09 2016 03:50 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 03:37 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On January 09 2016 00:15 Deathstar wrote:If the immigrants are not integrating into the labor market properly, the solution is not to kick them out or close the border. The solution is to focus more on policies that will integrate these new people. Especially considering long-term challenges many developed European countries currently face. Let's look at Germany. They have 2 trends currently. 1. Shortage in skilled labor. 2. Declining population. http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-grapples-with-growing-shortage-of-skilled-labor-1402064223Ever increasing cost of labor is a threat to Germany's competitiveness. Now they have an influx of migrants. A million or so new people to integrate into their economy. Integration is a short term problem for a long term payoff. Germany, and many European countries, have for a long time been homogeneous (culturally and ethnically) and so will struggle for some time. Dutch site, but try a google translate over it: http://www.nrc.nl/next/2016/01/06/7-weetjes-voor-naieve-optimisten-1574678- Most (according to the report 88%) non-western immigrants see themselves first as whichever arabic country they come from, then as muslim (mostly) and on the 3rd spot would be the country they've either migrated to, or have been born in, this includes 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation. - Anti-west mentality by kids with non-western parents in classrooms (primary school) is not corrected because of the fear for being called a racist (political correctness) - After 3 to 4 generations of immigrants, only 1/3rd has a job, 44% is on welfare of which 91% is on legal aid. - Of the dutch immigrants the iranian migrants have the highest employment of 60% workforce participation and 15% unemployment. Which is still 3x as high as dutch natives. From the article: 7. Refugees find work
The labor market position of refugees is downright bad. The poor command of the Dutch language plays an important role. The Integration Barometer 2012 Refugee Council shows that only has one job in three refugees - generally temporary work - which is 44 percent dependent on benefits and that in case of a benefit 91 percent require assistance. Somali group is 35 percent unemployed, half of them on welfare. Iranian migrants constitute a positive exception, with 60 percent participation and 15 percent unemployment - but their unemployment rate is still nearly three times higher than among native Dutch. This is fair. There has been massive failure to teach the immigrants the language of the native population (or the immigrants are unwilling to learn). These people are now in your country. They need to be able to speak Dutch to participate in your economy beyond temporary work. Is it entirely the fault of the immigrants that they have been unable to learn Dutch (especially the children of the immigrants)? There is currently an integration problem. Stop complaining and look for realistic solutions to it. Need to up the incentives then. Better education easily avalible yes but how about no more interpreters for goverment services and no social welfare unless you speak the language or you are currently learning and improving. Guess dutch citizens would learn the language pretty damn fast if that was the point. I personally find it completly ridiculus that I meet people every day who are citizens, have lived in Sweden for over 10 years and still require an interpreter. Obviously on welfare. I also meet people coming for university and who speak accepteble Swedish after as little as 6 months which they had to learn on their own while studying other things full time or being phd students. Obviously people who go to mandatory language education full time and dont learn it in 10 years do not give a shit. And its because we let them. If we told them to adapt or get fucked they would learn. WEll, I'd wager that your average PhD student is more resourceful than the average migrant but in general I agree with the sentiment. In both Germany and the UK I've encountered a number of immigrants, and even more worryingly their children, who aren't capable of speaking the respective official language at a satisfactory level. Always a real disappointment in humanity to see people live like that. :/
I believe you have encountered their grand children, and it is called cultural enrichment.
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On January 08 2016 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 17:59 Furikawari wrote:www.latribune.fr(article in french sorry) So, not really about EU, it's a bout a citizen initiative in Switzerland (standard stuff there, "votation"). The idea is to make it mandatory for the banks to have 100% of the money for any loan. Meaning that it removes the monetary creation power from private institutions. It's really a tehnical subject (and my econimical english is really too poor to explain this clearly) but if it was adopted that would be BIG. It's kinda stupid too, you need inflation. How will you do that without the banks in this day and age ?
They explain it all in the article. The central bank would inject money every year. To the government or directly to the citizen (think about the "revenu universel"). These guys are economists, maybe you should think twice before calling stupidity, just saying...
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If young immigrants choose not to learn the language, that is most certainly worrisome. However, there is a sizable fraction of people (mostly the older ones) who really just can't learn the language no matter how hard they try because it doesn't come to them. While I see the merit in ensuring that immigrants integrate to at least some degree into the new society, a language requirement is the wrong way to go about it. It's better just to admit that you cannot naively accept anyone who wants in but rather you have to accept only good immigrants and send the bad ones back.
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On January 09 2016 04:07 LegalLord wrote:
If young immigrants choose not to learn the language, that is most certainly worrisome. However, there is a sizable fraction of people (mostly the older ones) who really just can't learn the language no matter how hard they try because it doesn't come to them. While I see the merit in ensuring that immigrants integrate to at least some degree into the new society, a language requirement is the wrong way to go about it. It's better just to admit that you cannot naively accept anyone who wants in but rather you have to accept only good immigrants and send the bad ones back.
Why would you move to a country and become a citizen if you can't learn the language. And "can't learn" is bullshit. Everyone can learn any language, if they try hard enough for long enough.
I'm sorry but were allowed to have standards to. Personally I think we should be more like Australia, you know the language, you have a job and you pay taxes or you can't become a citizen.
But them *minimum* requirements must be to know the language, follow the laws and accept (not necessarily embrace) the culture. Otherwise your not an immigrant your an invader.
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On January 09 2016 04:07 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2016 21:15 WhiteDog wrote:On January 08 2016 17:59 Furikawari wrote:www.latribune.fr(article in french sorry) So, not really about EU, it's a bout a citizen initiative in Switzerland (standard stuff there, "votation"). The idea is to make it mandatory for the banks to have 100% of the money for any loan. Meaning that it removes the monetary creation power from private institutions. It's really a tehnical subject (and my econimical english is really too poor to explain this clearly) but if it was adopted that would be BIG. It's kinda stupid too, you need inflation. How will you do that without the banks in this day and age ? They explain it all in the article. The central bank would inject money every year. To the government or directly to the citizen (think about the "revenu universel"). These guys are economists, maybe you should think twice before calling stupidity, just saying...
It is just plain stupid as it is, and nothing is said in the article about the universal revenu (a quantitative easing for the people, as it is implied, is different because it mean buying the debt of the people). I'm not an economist but I know enough about it and its history to know it will fail as it is. The central bank do not have the tools to actually measure the money that it needs to inject every years. At the time, we can't even really measure the monetary mass, as it is very difficult to actually know what is considered liquid and what is not liquid anymore. It was the dream of the monetarists (Friedman and co) to actually define the rate of growth of the monetary mass and it never worked (people found out various occasions and opportunities to create more liquidity even when it was restricted, the central bank can never completly control the creation of money).
Not to mention, the idea that we should prevent inflation (from the banks) is a very liberal point of view (it's Hayek who wrote about the "power of the banks" and the problem of the inflation it create).
As for the universal revenu, you are right it is a good solution, but that's why I said "in this day and age". You really think you can add the universal revenu after ? You think it will pass ? Because preventing the banks from creating money WITHOUT the universal revenu is asking for a crisis.
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EPT
