EPTAnd lord-nibbler, a touch of nuance would do you a world of good. Yes, the US education system's splintered and localized nature has lead to some high stupidity, but that same system produces many if not more people who recognize the inherent benefits in a strong community and government. So, try to look past vulgar anti-Americanism and realize that many of us are on the same page.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 34
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
And lord-nibbler, a touch of nuance would do you a world of good. Yes, the US education system's splintered and localized nature has lead to some high stupidity, but that same system produces many if not more people who recognize the inherent benefits in a strong community and government. So, try to look past vulgar anti-Americanism and realize that many of us are on the same page. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On January 15 2015 23:12 2stra wrote: Do you not make use of the infrastructure that the state maintains? What if you get sick or injured and can longer offer employment? The state is terrible at maintaining infrastructure, compared to private owners. Anyway, I have never said that the state should be abolished. The state should stop interfering with our liberties though. A society that values personal freedom, is the most giving, I've made this point, and it's been backed up, so there would be a lot of voluntarist organization to turn to if you get sick. Anglosaxon societies have the best voluntarist healthcare in the world. No big difference to a welfare state by force. The welfare state doesn't always help. The swedish healthcare system is one of the worst in the west, with huge waiting lists and subpar patient care. The only advantage, for the poor is that it is mostly paid by taxes. If you're swedish, and want good healthcare, you fly to some european country and pay for it. That's how it really works in the socialist paradise of Sweden. Private healthcare is heavily restricted here, which means that good healthcare is only available to the upper middle class, who can afford to go abroad for it. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11786 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On January 16 2015 00:10 Simberto wrote: So, why have you not already moved to the US? Or even better, a liberal paradise like Somalia where the state is so weak that it can not effectively enforce laws? Why don't you move to North Korea? Is strawmanning fun? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11786 Posts
On my list of places i would like to live in, North Korea is slightly above the inside of an active volcano. On the other hand, you seem to really dislike the social democratic system western european countries have, and would prefer a libertarian society. Now, obviously, a true libertarian society does not actually exist at the moment, mostly because it would be disgustingly horrifying. Probably still slightly better then North Korea, but not by a lot. But the USA is a lot closer to this "ideal" than europe. I do not think that i am strawmanning here, and i quite remember the (incredibly funny) thread about Somalia, the success story of anarcho-capitalism. The amount of social security we currently enjoy in western europe is unprecedented, and incredibly good for everyone involved except maybe the top 1%. If you get sick, you can go to a doctor, you get treatment, and it doesn't ruin you financially. If you lose your job, you don't starve to death. You don't have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to be able to have a small shitty room and food for your family. Most people like this. What my opinion is that you take all these advantages for granted, and thus see only the negatives of such a system. Thus, i would suggest you try living in a country that is actually closer to your ideal, and see if you like that more. But apparently you chose not to do that so far, so there must be a reason for that, which is why i was asking, Possibly that reason is that you don't think it is worth the effort. Or it might be that you actually realize that it is quite nice to live in sweden with some nets to catch you if something goes wrong in your life. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On January 16 2015 00:57 Simberto wrote: Because i don't think that the North Korean system is very good. On the other hand, i quite like how Germany works, and so far i have not found a country where i think moving there would be worth the effort of moving and possibly learning a new language. On my list of places i would like to live in, North Korea is slightly above the inside of an active volcano. On the other hand, you seem to really dislike the social democratic system western european countries have, and would prefer a libertarian society. Now, obviously, a true libertarian society does not actually exist at the moment, mostly because it would be disgustingly horrifying. Probably still slightly better then North Korea, but not by a lot. But the USA is a lot closer to this "ideal" than europe. I do not think that i am strawmanning here, and i quite remember the (incredibly funny) thread about Somalia, the success story of anarcho-capitalism. The amount of social security we currently enjoy in western europe is unprecedented, and incredibly good for everyone involved except maybe the top 1%. If you get sick, you can go to a doctor, you get treatment, and it doesn't ruin you financially. If you lose your job, you don't starve to death. You don't have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week to be able to have a small shitty room and food for your family. Most people like this. What my opinion is that you take all these advantages for granted, and thus see only the negatives of such a system. Thus, i would suggest you try living in a country that is actually closer to your ideal, and see if you like that more. But apparently you chose not to do that so far, so there must be a reason for that, which is why i was asking, Possibly that reason is that you don't think it is worth the effort. Or it might be that you actually realize that it is quite nice to live in sweden with some nets to catch you if something goes wrong in your life. You made the assumption that I wanted a society like Somalia, even though I've said that I'm not a anarchist. And what makes you think that I haven't, or don't plan to move to another country. I can't see how any of this is relevant though. A greek person who is unhappy with the current state of affairs in his country have nothing to complain about, as long as he choose to remain there. That's what you're also saying. But it's clear that your arguments are very weak, just like everybody else here, and that's why you either have to strawman, or give out passive aggressive remarks, like, "he lives in Sweden, and still doesn't see the value in the welfare state, lolz", which is a emotional argument, not a rational argument. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11786 Posts
A free market without regulations, as opposed to a welfare state, has incredibly large amounts of problems, and has historically always led to the rich abusing the poor as much as they can get away with. Obviously, that is good if you are a part of the top 1%. What we currently have as a system is the result of a large history of societal struggle and of the weak slowly gaining rights from the rich, leading to a society we have nowadays where everyone can live a fulfilling live, instead of slaving away for the rich masters for barely enough compensation to stay alive to keep on working. I think this is a lot better, and i simply don't understand how anyone can claim otherwise. If you don't have a universal healthcare system, that means you accept that fact that some people will die because they can not pay for a treatment that is available. I do not thing that is reasonable. If you take away social security, you accept that some people will starve or become criminals if they lose their job, which gives absurd amounts of negotiation potential to their employers, which historically has lead to fun situations like at the start of the century where people worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week, which is just a small step above slavery. The free market is simply really, really bad at doing some things. Police. Firefighters. Healthcare. Education. Keeping poor people alive. There are simply where a society that provides them to everyone, as opposed to only to those who can pay for it, becomes a lot better for everyone involved. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On January 15 2015 23:26 farvacola wrote: How about you actually reading my answers instead of accusing me of anti-Americanism?And lord-nibbler, a touch of nuance would do you a world of good. Yes, the US education system's splintered and localized nature has lead to some high stupidity, but that same system produces many if not more people who recognize the inherent benefits in a strong community and government. So, try to look past vulgar anti-Americanism and realize that many of us are on the same page. Think of a country were 20% of the adults are illiterate even though officially they all have gone to school. We would say, hey their education system clearly failed. Sure it might produce top-notch education for some, but 20% of non-readers is way too high by any standards. And the same holds true for the US school system. The fact is, that a lot of US citizens (maybe 20%) apparently have not learned about basic economy or the evolution of human societies throughout history, because they think that one could even form a sustainable community of 'autonomic individuals' without turning to despotism. Hell, even Egyptian children 6000 years ago probably got taught these things. | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
Is it really so hard to distinguish between a school and the people that go there? You don't take a critique of the US Senate as a personal attack of on you. So why am I labeled anti-American if I critique the US education system? | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On January 16 2015 0139 Nyxisto wrote: Sorry, but there is no space between "taxes are theft!111" and anarchism. Governments don't work without income. Taxes can't be theft if they're voluntary. For instance, I'm a supporter of road/toll taxes. Income taxes if voluntary are fine. Anyway. Although I strongly oppose to involuntary taxes as a concept, that's not where my main focus would lie. There are bigger issues than involuntary taxes. Things like regulations, which serves no purpose other than to restrict our abilities to trade on the open market. Taxes atleast serves some purpose. A state should follow constitutionalistic ideals though. They should not have the power to interfere with our freedoms, not even if the majority agrees. | ||
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RCMDVA
United States708 Posts
They cut the 1.20 cord... because of what is going on in Switzerland or what is going on with the Euro? | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
i think we tried that, and figured out it did not work very well... you want to go back in time and do the same excercise over again. need more regulations for fish farms to prevent disease and pollution from ruining my fjord and future fish further. the majority is protecting us both from your bad ideas. democracy so good. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 16 2015 02:58 L1ghtning wrote: Taxes can't be theft if they're voluntary. For instance, I'm a supporter of road/toll taxes. Income taxes if voluntary are fine. Anyway. Although I strongly oppose to involuntary taxes as a concept, that's not where my main focus would lie. There are bigger issues than involuntary taxes. Things like regulations, which serves no purpose other than to restrict our abilities to trade on the open market. Taxes atleast serves some purpose. A state should follow constitutionalistic ideals though. They should not have the power to interfere with our freedoms, not even if the majority agrees. Voluntary taxes are not taxes, that is insurance. As for interfering with freedoms. Modern western states are the best protectors of your freedoms against the majority that history has ever known. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11786 Posts
And sorry, but if the state does not have the power to interfere with your freedom, that means you are living in an anarchy. And if you want that, you are an anarchist. Not even talking about the question as to how "a state should follow constitutionalistic ideals" when it does not have the power to do anything. Because if it does anything, that would interfere with the freedom of someone. Which according to you it should not be able to. As nunez pointed out, history has shown that in the absence of regulations, individuals will consistently choose the short-term personal benefit over the long-term communal good. So, for example, you live in Sweden, right? You have a lot of forests in sweden. Most people would probably think that it would be a very bad idea to cut all of them down. However, in the absence of regulations, some guy is gonna do just that to sell all the wood. Or polluted water from a factory. Probably not a good idea to send that into the river unfiltered, right? However, it IS cheaper. And everybody is doing it, and just my small bit of pollution won't make a big change anyways, so.....sucks to live downstream. And the government shouldn't be able to infringe on the freedom of the factory owner to get rid of his waste however he chooses, right? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6271 Posts
On January 16 2015 03:14 RCMDVA wrote: So the Swiss central bank blinked today? They cut the 1.20 cord... because of what is going on in Switzerland or what is going on with the Euro? LONDON (Reuters) - Switzerland's franc soared by almost 30 percent in value against the euro on Thursday after the Swiss National Bank abandoned its three-year old cap at 1.20 francs per euro. In a chaotic few minutes on markets after the SNB's announcement, the franc broke past parity against the euro to trade at 0.8052 francs per euro before trimming those gains to stand at 1.0350 francs. It also gained 25 percent against the dollar to trade at 0.8900 francs per dollar. The SNB has been resisting heavy pressure in recent months on the cap it imposed in September 2011 on the stellar rise seen in the franc's value due to investors seeking a haven from the euro zone's economic and political troubles. The prospect of outright money-printing by the European Central Bank as early as next week has added to the pressure, with the SNB seen by players in the market as buying euros consistently around 1.2009 francs per euro in recent days. "It has taken the market by complete surprise," said Jonathan Webb, head of FX strategy at Jefferies in London. "The SNB probably expects the ECB to launch QE next week and along with the Greek elections coming up, it would make it pretty tough on the Swiss to keep bidding the euro. So they have abandoned the cap and cut rates deeper into negative territory. We expect euro/Swiss to trade around 0.90-1.00 francs after all the stop loss orders have been cleared." source Basically the QE programme from the ECB will make the exchange rate they have now unsustainable so they decided to stop it all in one go. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6271 Posts
On January 16 2015 04:21 mcc wrote: Voluntary taxes are not taxes, that is insurance. As for interfering with freedoms. Modern western states are the best protectors of your freedoms against the majority that history has ever known. How is voluntary taxes the same as insurance? For example voluntary taxes for infrastructure wouldn't be insurance. Edit: a lot of government programmes funded from 'coercive taxes' (for lack of a better word) is essentially insurance already, for example government paid pensions is a form of life insurance. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
Apparently l1ghtning is not familiar with all the homeless people in America who "will work for food." | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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