|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 07 2024 22:53 Dan HH wrote:
Things are very calm, we expected chaos after the decision but there hasn't been a single peep IRL from Georgescu's supporters. Not even two guys holding a "down with this sort of thing" piece of paper, nothing. This was supposed to be their Messiah, the savior of the nation, the state just kneed him in the nuts and no one cares enough to take it outside of Facebook and Tiktok. The Bucharest stock exchange is up and our currency the RON is doing fine.
I'm extremely glad things are going this way but this is also incredibly strange.
Authorities are now raiding some businessmen that illegaly financed him and they're also raiding people that promoted the Iron Guard/Legionary Movement and displayed fascist symbols. Some influencers that promoted Georgescu fled the country.
Some explanations for the docile reaction might be:
- The largest share of his supporters are from rural areas and workers abroad, the're heavily outnumbered in cities and protests only make sense in cities
- None of the far right leaders and parties instigated their supporters to take to the streets
- Despite appearing that all our arguments were falling on deaf ears, I now think a large share of them did in fact understand them and developed doubts about this weirdo, but were ashamed to admit they were duped
- A lot of Georgescu's support was rather based on opposition to Lasconi/USR, religious people in particular perceive the latter as being too progressive and are scared of them
We might still pay a price for this in the presidential election re-make and future elections, but even that isn't a certainty. In hindsight, what looked like a terrible decision to me at the time might be exactly what's necessary for the state to do to protect a democracy from suicide.
These events need to be heavily researched and understood.
- Online spaces created this illusion that everyone wants this which pressured less-informed people to join what appeared to them as a nice grassroots movement of national identity renewal and not miss out. Maybe botting got the snowball starting, but by the end of it it was mostly real people doing it. The craziest among us are the loudest, they write 100 Youtube/Facebook comments a day while you might write 3 a month. Lots of people are swayed by majority opinion and social media makes it easy for small conspiracy theories or pseudo-science to appear to have major support which over time turns to real major support.
- We need to be nicer and praise people that have the courage to ask stupid questions, admit they were wrong, or change their mind in light of new information - this should be seen as desirable rather than scary. I think a lot of what happened during COVID was also because of this perception that people need to stick to their initial position or else they'll be seen as stupid.
Thanks for these insights! One would hope that this close call leads to some more thought about how social media influences a society, and how easy it makes it for outsiders to manipulate public opinion.
But I fear it won't, because it "just" happened in Romania, and most people sadly don't really care about Romania. This really should be a wakeup call, but i fear that it will just be ignored again. Until a France or so falls to this shit (and not just closely avoids it), we will just continue doing nothing.
Please do not take this as me denigrating Romania. My wife is Romanian. I am just interpreting the common perspective in the west on Romania here, which in my experience is complete desinterest and zero knowledge.
|
On December 07 2024 22:53 Dan HH wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Things are very calm, we expected chaos after the decision but there hasn't been a single peep IRL from Georgescu's supporters. Not even two guys holding a "down with this sort of thing" piece of paper, nothing. This was supposed to be their Messiah, the savior of the nation, the state just kneed him in the nuts and no one cares enough to take it outside of Facebook and Tiktok. The Bucharest stock exchange is up and our currency the RON is doing fine.
I'm extremely glad things are going this way but this is also incredibly strange.
Authorities are now raiding some businessmen that illegaly financed him and they're also raiding people that promoted the Iron Guard/Legionary Movement and displayed fascist symbols. Some influencers that promoted Georgescu fled the country.
Some explanations for the docile reaction might be:
- The largest share of his supporters are from rural areas and workers abroad, the're heavily outnumbered in cities and protests only make sense in cities
- None of the far right leaders and parties instigated their supporters to take to the streets
- Despite appearing that all our arguments were falling on deaf ears, I now think a large share of them did in fact understand them and developed doubts about this weirdo, but were ashamed to admit they were duped
- A lot of Georgescu's support was rather based on opposition to Lasconi/USR, religious people in particular perceive the latter as being too progressive and are scared of them
We might still pay a price for this in the presidential election re-make and future elections, but even that isn't a certainty. In hindsight, what looked like a terrible decision to me at the time might be exactly what's necessary for the state to do to protect a democracy from suicide.
These events need to be heavily researched and understood.
- Online spaces created this illusion that everyone wants this which pressured less-informed people to join what appeared to them as a nice grassroots movement of national identity renewal and not miss out. Maybe botting got the snowball starting, but by the end of it it was mostly real people doing it. The craziest among us are the loudest, they write 100 Youtube/Facebook comments a day while you might write 3 a month. Lots of people are swayed by majority opinion and social media makes it easy for small conspiracy theories or pseudo-science to appear to have major support which over time turns to real major support. - We need to be nicer and praise people that have the courage to ask stupid questions, admit they were wrong, or change their mind in light of new information - this should be seen as desirable rather than scary. I think a lot of what happened during COVID was also because of this perception that people need to stick to their initial position or else they'll be seen as stupid.
Huge agreement on this. People should have pride when they change their minds based on new information!
|
Yesterday evening Georgescu and Simion called for people to go to the closed voting polls and protest today. Georgescu went to the voting place he said he was going to be at in the morning but only a few dozen people showed up, they stayed there for a bit and left. Simion asked people to protest at 13:00 but nothing happened inside the country, only some small groups at some embassies abroad showed up.
Meanwhile authorities stopped and detained some neo-legionnaires associated with Georgescu on their way to Bucharest. They had some guns and a bunch of knives on them, allegedly they had booked rooms for a week and had a list of journalists and politicians. Their leader is being dubbed "Prigozhin at home".
+ Show Spoiler +
I think they were expecting mass numbers to show up and start shit, but while they do still have massive support, the grandparents that support them in cities have Christmas gifts to buy they're not gonna go fight with the police.
Also last evening, Georgescu went on a TV station that supports him where he went on a delirious rant about how this election annulment in Romania was a test by the global cabal, that our current president is planning to enact a state of emergency for us to go to war, and that Biden will do the same thing and WW3 with Russia will start imminently so that globalists stay in power forever.
A ton of old videos of military equipmement being transported were spammed and promoted on social media as being things that are happening right now inside the country, and unfortunately lots of people believed them. We had to calm down older relatives and explain to them that it's bullshit being flung out of desperation.
The information war for our future isn't over. Despite everything, even now I'm not sure that Georgescu would lose in an actual vote.
|
Looks like the Poland is going to break our international law obligation, allow to enter the leader of the certain country on middle east and NOT arrest him if he goes to Auschwitz.
Fuck...
Fucking cowards in our gouverment. All fucking cowards. Just to appeace a certain politician, the leader of a NATO country which, because of some insane delusions of aformentioned leader, in few months may try to exit from it anyway, they bring a disgrace... no, worse... DISHONOR for our heads. What a bunch of pussies.
|
Netanyahu, responsible for a 'potential' ethnic cleansing in Gaza, getting to speak at the Auschwitz memorial is a disgrace.
|
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On December 09 2024 01:36 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2024 22:53 Dan HH wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Things are very calm, we expected chaos after the decision but there hasn't been a single peep IRL from Georgescu's supporters. Not even two guys holding a "down with this sort of thing" piece of paper, nothing. This was supposed to be their Messiah, the savior of the nation, the state just kneed him in the nuts and no one cares enough to take it outside of Facebook and Tiktok. The Bucharest stock exchange is up and our currency the RON is doing fine.
I'm extremely glad things are going this way but this is also incredibly strange.
Authorities are now raiding some businessmen that illegaly financed him and they're also raiding people that promoted the Iron Guard/Legionary Movement and displayed fascist symbols. Some influencers that promoted Georgescu fled the country.
Some explanations for the docile reaction might be:
- The largest share of his supporters are from rural areas and workers abroad, the're heavily outnumbered in cities and protests only make sense in cities
- None of the far right leaders and parties instigated their supporters to take to the streets
- Despite appearing that all our arguments were falling on deaf ears, I now think a large share of them did in fact understand them and developed doubts about this weirdo, but were ashamed to admit they were duped
- A lot of Georgescu's support was rather based on opposition to Lasconi/USR, religious people in particular perceive the latter as being too progressive and are scared of them
We might still pay a price for this in the presidential election re-make and future elections, but even that isn't a certainty. In hindsight, what looked like a terrible decision to me at the time might be exactly what's necessary for the state to do to protect a democracy from suicide.
These events need to be heavily researched and understood.
- Online spaces created this illusion that everyone wants this which pressured less-informed people to join what appeared to them as a nice grassroots movement of national identity renewal and not miss out. Maybe botting got the snowball starting, but by the end of it it was mostly real people doing it. The craziest among us are the loudest, they write 100 Youtube/Facebook comments a day while you might write 3 a month. Lots of people are swayed by majority opinion and social media makes it easy for small conspiracy theories or pseudo-science to appear to have major support which over time turns to real major support. - We need to be nicer and praise people that have the courage to ask stupid questions, admit they were wrong, or change their mind in light of new information - this should be seen as desirable rather than scary. I think a lot of what happened during COVID was also because of this perception that people need to stick to their initial position or else they'll be seen as stupid. Huge agreement on this. People should have pride when they change their minds based on new information!
Yeah 100%
|
On January 10 2025 23:01 hitthat wrote:
Looks like the Poland is going to break our international law obligation, allow to enter the leader of the certain country on middle east and NOT arrest him if he goes to Auschwitz.
Fuck...
Fucking cowards in our gouverment. All fucking cowards. Just to appeace a certain politician, the leader of a NATO country which, because of some insane delusions of aformentioned leader, in few months may try to exit from it anyway, they bring a disgrace... no, worse... DISHONOR for our heads. What a bunch of pussies.
Ehhh. Its terrible situation true. But really I don't know what else they could do... It they say he is not welcomed and has to stay in Isreal all poles would be called antisemites and our military contracts would be in danger. Arresting him is even bigger risk to our world standing and security given stunch support he has in US and other western democracies.
|
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On January 10 2025 23:36 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2025 23:01 hitthat wrote:
Looks like the Poland is going to break our international law obligation, allow to enter the leader of the certain country on middle east and NOT arrest him if he goes to Auschwitz.
Fuck...
Fucking cowards in our gouverment. All fucking cowards. Just to appeace a certain politician, the leader of a NATO country which, because of some insane delusions of aformentioned leader, in few months may try to exit from it anyway, they bring a disgrace... no, worse... DISHONOR for our heads. What a bunch of pussies. Ehhh. Its terrible situation true. But really I don't know what else they could do... It they say he is not welcomed and has to stay in Isreal all poles would be called antisemites and our military contracts would be in danger. Arresting him is even bigger risk to our world standing and security given stunch support he has in US and other western democracies.
Yeah I mean aside from making a moral stand, what would even practically happen here?
The wider problem is how international law is routinely circumvented and toothless, and that isn’t Poland’s doing.
Very much a rock and a hard place kind of scenario.
|
Imagine if Poles let Putin speak in Auschwitz and not arrest him. What a farce.
|
On January 10 2025 23:05 Gorsameth wrote:
Netanyahu, responsible for a 'potential' ethnic cleansing in Gaza, getting to speak at the Auschwitz memorial is a disgrace.
It's completely irrelevant if he is responsible or not. It's tribunal's job to prosecute him, and it's our job to arrest him if he is dumb enough to put his foot on our soil. This is what we obligated to do. Nobody forced us, we agreed to that with our own, independed will. And out ministry of foreign affairs had guts to condemn MONGOLIA for not arresting Putin. Hypocrits and shitheads, that's what they are. Human garbage. All it was needed was threat from USA and (hollow, towards polish state) holocaust card and they shown where they had all our obligations.
I am in anger now.
On January 10 2025 23:36 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2025 23:01 hitthat wrote:
Looks like the Poland is going to break our international law obligation, allow to enter the leader of the certain country on middle east and NOT arrest him if he goes to Auschwitz.
Fuck...
Fucking cowards in our gouverment. All fucking cowards. Just to appeace a certain politician, the leader of a NATO country which, because of some insane delusions of aformentioned leader, in few months may try to exit from it anyway, they bring a disgrace... no, worse... DISHONOR for our heads. What a bunch of pussies. Ehhh. Its terrible situation true. But really I don't know what else they could do... It they say he is not welcomed and has to stay in Isreal all poles would be called antisemites and our military contracts would be in danger. Arresting him is even bigger risk to our world standing and security given stunch support he has in US and other western democracies.
Arrest him would be only honest course of action. He is/was aware he may be in jail if he tries that stunt. And about antisemitism - they may shove it up their asses. That card is null if we are talking about obligation to international law. We are not talking here about Braun snuffing menora. We are talking here about someone accused for CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. And about our security - Trump just put US reliability to question lately by territorial claims toward its allies. For a trust of someone like him we just put reliability of ourselves in question and shown we are cowards. Bravo.
|
On January 11 2025 00:17 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2025 23:05 Gorsameth wrote:
Netanyahu, responsible for a 'potential' ethnic cleansing in Gaza, getting to speak at the Auschwitz memorial is a disgrace.
It's completely irrelevant if he is responsible or not. It's tribunal's job to prosecute him, and it's our job to arrest him if he is dumb enough to put his foot on our soil. This is what we obligated to do. Nobody forced us, we agreed to that with our own, independed will. And out ministry of foreign affairs had guts to condemn MONGOLIA for not arresting Putin. Hypocrits and shitheads, that's what they are. Human garbage. All it was needed was threat from USA and (hollow, towards polish state) holocaust card and they shown where they had all our obligations. I am in anger now. It wouldn't even have to come to arresting him. Just tell him he isn't welcome and thats the end of it. Israel will huff and puff and Poland ignores them. The end.
|
I don't know the details of the ICC decision but unless it's some obvious bullshit the decision to invite Netanyahu makes very little sense to me.
I'm kind of surprised it's not a bigger deal in the mainstream media but maybe I shouldn't be. People here don't seem to be as emotionally invested in the Palestinian matters as Americans or Western Europeans, so maybe they just don't care too much?
|
Just another example of how the 'international rules based order' is and always has been a farce. Rules for thee but not for me, or I suppose you can call it 'realpolitik' instead, if you prefer.
|
On January 11 2025 00:30 Sent. wrote:
I don't know the details of the ICC decision but unless it's some obvious bullshit the decision to invite Netanyahu makes very little sense to me.
I'm kind of surprised it's not a bigger deal in the mainstream media but maybe I shouldn't be. People here don't seem to be as emotionally invested in the Palestinian matters as Americans or Western Europeans, so maybe they just don't care too much? I dont think its about emotional investment. I imagine a lot of media just doesn't want to touch the story because no matter how you report it either those in support of Palestinians and Gaza or Israel are going to scream murder.
|
On January 11 2025 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2025 00:17 hitthat wrote:On January 10 2025 23:05 Gorsameth wrote:
Netanyahu, responsible for a 'potential' ethnic cleansing in Gaza, getting to speak at the Auschwitz memorial is a disgrace.
It's completely irrelevant if he is responsible or not. It's tribunal's job to prosecute him, and it's our job to arrest him if he is dumb enough to put his foot on our soil. This is what we obligated to do. Nobody forced us, we agreed to that with our own, independed will. And out ministry of foreign affairs had guts to condemn MONGOLIA for not arresting Putin. Hypocrits and shitheads, that's what they are. Human garbage. All it was needed was threat from USA and (hollow, towards polish state) holocaust card and they shown where they had all our obligations. I am in anger now. It wouldn't even have to come to arresting him. Just tell him he isn't welcome and thats the end of it. Israel will huff and puff and Poland ignores them. The end.
This wouldn't fly with the US.
The PR hit aside, Poland is far too dependent on US for security to even risk displeasing Washington.
Besides, polish government wants US to not get involved in internal matters and this is a good way to curry favor.
On January 11 2025 00:30 Sent. wrote:
I'm kind of surprised it's not a bigger deal in the mainstream media but maybe I shouldn't be. People here don't seem to be as emotionally invested in the Palestinian matters as Americans or Western Europeans, so maybe they just don't care too much?
Nothing has happened just yet.
There is still the matter of air travel through airspaces of countries that could potentially want to execute the warrant.
|
On January 11 2025 04:03 pmp10 wrote:
Nothing has happened just yet.
They say certain israeli politician will not come.
Good. He spares us disgrace.
|
On January 10 2025 23:50 Luolis wrote:
Imagine if Poles let Putin speak in Auschwitz and not arrest him. What a farce.
Imagine if apples were oranges, or even water melon's.
|
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On January 11 2025 08:00 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2025 23:50 Luolis wrote:
Imagine if Poles let Putin speak in Auschwitz and not arrest him. What a farce. Imagine if apples were oranges, or even water melon's.
Don’t think there’s a million miles off the comparison really.
I can hardly think of a singular person less suited to give an address in Auschwitz than Netanyahu.
It’s a memorial to the very worst of humanity’s inhumanity that resonates beyond Jewishness, although that’s obviously a big focus.
The presence of a bloke from that background who patently hasn’t learned the more universal lessons of where hatred leads, and has actively emboldened it in a leadership role I certainly wouldn’t be whacking out the invite.
|
Considering that Trump is getting more and more unhinged and the US is evolving into an expansionist dictatorship like Russia, do you think it's time for the EU countries to leave the nuclear nonproliferation treaty and start building up a nuclear arsenal? At the very least, we should stop buying any weapons from the US.
|
Seems logical enough, I don't think it's going to matter a whole lot either way though. A likely future is that the far right figures that get elected in Europe do similar things to what Trump did in the US, and then we don't have a unified front to face the other powers. Which to be honest we might not have been able to do even unified, so, eh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KihT8ww.jpeg)
