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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1266

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23311 Posts
February 04 2020 21:51 GMT
#25301
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 04 2020 22:18 GMT
#25302
On February 05 2020 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?


Not sure what "efforts to kick large landlords out of the city" you are talking about... But that sounds like wonderful framing.

But maybe you are refering to the city government of Berlin passing a new law to limit the rent of appartments to between 4 and 10€/m² depending on build date (but regardless of where in Berlin)

Which certainly managed to create a large uncertainity for all owners of houses and appartments in Berlin, regardless if it is a single appartment owner or some large corporation owning entire quarters of the city.
It is also a great gift to all those above average earners in the more expensive districts of the city, who now get their rent cut in half, while the low earners living in the cheaper districts still pay the same as before. Or how my 6 figure earning uncle put it: "Finally we can look into renting or buying a 200+ m² loft in the central city."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23311 Posts
February 04 2020 22:29 GMT
#25303
On February 05 2020 07:18 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2020 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?


Not sure what "efforts to kick large landlords out of the city" you are talking about... But that sounds like wonderful framing.

But maybe you are refering to the city government of Berlin passing a new law to limit the rent of appartments to between 4 and 10€/m² depending on build date (but regardless of where in Berlin)

Which certainly managed to create a large uncertainity for all owners of houses and appartments in Berlin, regardless if it is a single appartment owner or some large corporation owning entire quarters of the city.
It is also a great gift to all those above average earners in the more expensive districts of the city, who now get their rent cut in half, while the low earners living in the cheaper districts still pay the same as before. Or how my 6 figure earning uncle put it: "Finally we can look into renting or buying a 200+ m² loft in the central city."


Just saw this and was looking for some context from 'locals'

Berlin looks set to hold a referendum on banning big landlords and expropriating their homes into social housing, as part of a response to growing complaints in the German capital about the cost of living.

The proposed law would bar landlords with more than 3,000 homes in their portfolio from operating in the city – including the city’s biggest property company, Deutsche Wohnen AG.


www.independent.co.uk
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
February 04 2020 22:58 GMT
#25304
Well, if they make it happen that will be one more step towards communism. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 04 2020 23:46 GMT
#25305
On February 05 2020 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2020 07:18 mahrgell wrote:
On February 05 2020 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?


Not sure what "efforts to kick large landlords out of the city" you are talking about... But that sounds like wonderful framing.

But maybe you are refering to the city government of Berlin passing a new law to limit the rent of appartments to between 4 and 10€/m² depending on build date (but regardless of where in Berlin)

Which certainly managed to create a large uncertainity for all owners of houses and appartments in Berlin, regardless if it is a single appartment owner or some large corporation owning entire quarters of the city.
It is also a great gift to all those above average earners in the more expensive districts of the city, who now get their rent cut in half, while the low earners living in the cheaper districts still pay the same as before. Or how my 6 figure earning uncle put it: "Finally we can look into renting or buying a 200+ m² loft in the central city."


Just saw this and was looking for some context from 'locals'

Show nested quote +
Berlin looks set to hold a referendum on banning big landlords and expropriating their homes into social housing, as part of a response to growing complaints in the German capital about the cost of living.

The proposed law would bar landlords with more than 3,000 homes in their portfolio from operating in the city – including the city’s biggest property company, Deutsche Wohnen AG.


www.independent.co.uk


Oh that thing.... That was long ago and is kinda forgotten. It neither had a majority amongst the 3 ruling parties (not even talking about the others...) and unlike the statement from the article pretty much every lawyer doubted that this would ever hold in front of the constitutional court.
So the plan the red red green government was able to agree on was the one I mentioned above: Capping the rents massively.


Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21801 Posts
February 04 2020 23:55 GMT
#25306
It also sounds like something that big players will just bypass by using shell companies.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 05 2020 06:36 GMT
#25307
The law regarding maximum rent is not as broad brushed as it was made sound like.

Build date plays a major role as well as location and condition of the premises.
For both of the latter it basically refers to a document that depicts the average rent in many distinct areas in three categories with 3 sub categories each. High mid low.
And if your flat is priced above that you're eligible to reduce your rent. Albeit I wouldn't do it under certain landlord circumstances because at times there is little protection against being more or less evicted under protruded reasons.
Wouldn't call it a toothless Tiger nonetheless.

Regarding the big landlords thingy, it's a self made problem as the state / local administrations pushed and allowed for the sellout of communal rental buildings. As renting is rather crucial in many locations, especially expensive to buy cities, there's talk about making it more a right then as privilege. But currently that's just talk ya according to my impression.
passive quaranstream fan
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 05 2020 06:54 GMT
#25308
On February 05 2020 07:58 arbiter_md wrote:
Well, if they make it happen that will be one more step towards communism. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


The communists are those politicians that give away landrights for free while raping the working people for 40% of their wage to finance all the free capital services the state is providing.

Or what's the reason that people like me with no to minimal property contracts with the state have to pay all those property security services? There is no such thing as a free and secure property right! Someone has to pay for it! Keeping the price at zero is not different from what the communist did with all sorts of other commodities.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 05 2020 20:26 GMT
#25309
The rent control law is completely futile because it doesn't address the underlying issue which is a shortage of new housing supply as the population of the city keeps increasing. Berlin needs to encourage building housing just like countless of other European cities.
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-06 03:29:51
February 06 2020 03:24 GMT
#25310
On February 05 2020 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?


There have been a lot of ideas for curbing exorbitant rents floating around. They normally go under pretty quickly. I do not recall what exactly sunk the proposal you linked (my best guess is that it would have been anti-constitutional), but there was a more recent iteration of getting rid of large landlords, which called for the city to buy out their property. This iteration went under because Berlin is operating deeply in the red as it is and there simply is no money to buy back any significant amount of housing.

While the overwhelming amount of ideas to curb exploding rent levels have been discarded, there is actually a new law in Berlin that has already been passed but has not entered into force yet (pending judicial review). It freezes rent levels in the city for 5 years and sets an upper boundary for rent cost depending on location, condition, build year, and some more. The upper boundary also means that rent which is currently above it must be lowered as soon as the law enters into force (the upper boundary is kind of flexible, though, if some conditions are met). Personally, I am skeptical how much of an effect this law will have even if it were not stricken down by the judicial system. One of the reasons is a great introduction to why Deutsche Wohnen (mentioned in your link) and other large scale property owners are scum and for all I care can have all their property seized tomorrow:

A large portion of the money paid by a person towards living in a rented place does not go towards the rent itself but towards utilities and this is how large scale property owners make a killing. There is a common trend called insourcing meaning that as much as possible of the utility services (e.g. janitors, gardeners, electricians, administration) is provided by the property owner itself (not by hired third party companies) or by companies owned by the property owner. This means that there is zero accountability for the bills they provide and there is zero interest in searching for the most cost-efficient provider of said service. Statistics show that utility bills go through the roof as soon as a large scale property owner buys a building. We are talking about overall increases of utility bills of 20-100% over the span of the first year the building has been acquired by an owner like Deutsche Wohnen. Some positions mark an increase of several hundred to several thousand percent in a single year. Additionally, there are plenty of records of outright ridiculous (false) bills provided by these neo-capitalist locusts showing that the only idea is to rip off the common people – tens of thousands of Euros of utility bills for a single building for:
- inspection of the basement windows (the building does not have such windows)
- inspection of roof windows (the building does not have such windows once again…)
- a janitor inspecting in a single day on a monthly basis:
a) all light switches in 6 buildings (reproduced and timed by the residents at 11 hours 42 minutes)
b) the pumping system of the building (located 9 feet under the water level of the building plumbing, inaccessible without diving gear)
c) 20 additional services
- building liability insurance cost (which in court turned out to be for an administration building of the property owner located in a different city)

Sources+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-mieter-wehren-sich-wegen-dubioser-abrechnungen-a-1259916.html
https://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/1110313.nebenkostenabrechnung-fehler-mit-system.html



The Berlin law freezing rent levels will obviously have no effect on the utility cost rip-off scheme…

Additionally, the modus operandi of the large scale property owners upon acquiring a new building always includes an instant price increase if you are lucky… If you are not lucky, your building will be instantly modernized which translates into slapping Styrofoam on the outside making it a prime candidate to become the next Grenfell Tower + Show Spoiler +
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower#Fire
and painting over the stairwell for the lovely cost of doubling your rent.

Lastly, there has to be a shout out to certain politicians who enable this kind of rip-off to thrive. I guess it is up to debate why they do it, but for all practical purposes it does not really matter if they are absolutely incompetent idiots or simply sellouts. The bulk of the property owned by the large scale enterprises stems from buying out communal property built with the tax-payers’ money. Why local politicians would agree to selling profitable communal property is anyone’s guess, but a good hint at why this is probably plain corruption is the modern saying: “paying property acquisition tax is for suckers”. If you or I would buy a house we would have to pay 3.5% to 6.5% tax for the acquisition. Large scale property owners generally do not pay this tax - especially when buying communal property. The short version is that they “only” acquire 99.x% of the property which exempts them from this tax.

Ultimately, for all I care Deutsche Wohnen and other similar enterprises can go choke on a male reproductive organ preferably with everyone who gifted them communal property.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1944 Posts
February 06 2020 08:40 GMT
#25311
So, who wants to take bets whether Thüringens FDP will allow new elections after being voted into office by höcke?
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 06 2020 09:20 GMT
#25312
On February 06 2020 17:40 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, who wants to take bets whether Thüringens FDP will allow new elections after being voted into office by höcke?

There will be new elections, the question is just how long they will pretend to be trying to form some government. They cant officialky invite the AfD and cant govern with less than a third of the votes...

And the reelections will probably see the AfD and Linke going up by quite a bit, FDP getting kicked out again and the question will be if the Grens can mobilize their voters to stay in.

And then all that talk about politics of the center etc will look like the worst failure ever.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1944 Posts
February 06 2020 09:46 GMT
#25313
Sounds about right.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-06 13:05:24
February 06 2020 11:28 GMT
#25314
They will not do a new election, they'll have Ramelow voted into office with the votes of the CDU next time.


That is if the law allows for that. Idk thb
passive quaranstream fan
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4338 Posts
February 07 2020 00:35 GMT
#25315
EU urged to introduce meat tax because of the 'climate emergency', would increase the price of steak by 25%

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/04/eu-meat-tax-climate-emergency
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
February 07 2020 05:05 GMT
#25316
it's fine to account for the environmental cost of meat but what would be much more beneficial would be a carbon tax & dividend scheme for the entire market. We need it sooner rather than later.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25724 Posts
February 07 2020 09:22 GMT
#25317
On February 06 2020 12:24 ggrrg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2020 06:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
Any Germans have insight on the people in Berlins efforts to kick large landlords out of the city altogether?


There have been a lot of ideas for curbing exorbitant rents floating around. They normally go under pretty quickly. I do not recall what exactly sunk the proposal you linked (my best guess is that it would have been anti-constitutional), but there was a more recent iteration of getting rid of large landlords, which called for the city to buy out their property. This iteration went under because Berlin is operating deeply in the red as it is and there simply is no money to buy back any significant amount of housing.

While the overwhelming amount of ideas to curb exploding rent levels have been discarded, there is actually a new law in Berlin that has already been passed but has not entered into force yet (pending judicial review). It freezes rent levels in the city for 5 years and sets an upper boundary for rent cost depending on location, condition, build year, and some more. The upper boundary also means that rent which is currently above it must be lowered as soon as the law enters into force (the upper boundary is kind of flexible, though, if some conditions are met). Personally, I am skeptical how much of an effect this law will have even if it were not stricken down by the judicial system. One of the reasons is a great introduction to why Deutsche Wohnen (mentioned in your link) and other large scale property owners are scum and for all I care can have all their property seized tomorrow:

A large portion of the money paid by a person towards living in a rented place does not go towards the rent itself but towards utilities and this is how large scale property owners make a killing. There is a common trend called insourcing meaning that as much as possible of the utility services (e.g. janitors, gardeners, electricians, administration) is provided by the property owner itself (not by hired third party companies) or by companies owned by the property owner. This means that there is zero accountability for the bills they provide and there is zero interest in searching for the most cost-efficient provider of said service. Statistics show that utility bills go through the roof as soon as a large scale property owner buys a building. We are talking about overall increases of utility bills of 20-100% over the span of the first year the building has been acquired by an owner like Deutsche Wohnen. Some positions mark an increase of several hundred to several thousand percent in a single year. Additionally, there are plenty of records of outright ridiculous (false) bills provided by these neo-capitalist locusts showing that the only idea is to rip off the common people – tens of thousands of Euros of utility bills for a single building for:
- inspection of the basement windows (the building does not have such windows)
- inspection of roof windows (the building does not have such windows once again…)
- a janitor inspecting in a single day on a monthly basis:
a) all light switches in 6 buildings (reproduced and timed by the residents at 11 hours 42 minutes)
b) the pumping system of the building (located 9 feet under the water level of the building plumbing, inaccessible without diving gear)
c) 20 additional services
- building liability insurance cost (which in court turned out to be for an administration building of the property owner located in a different city)

Sources+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-mieter-wehren-sich-wegen-dubioser-abrechnungen-a-1259916.html
https://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/1110313.nebenkostenabrechnung-fehler-mit-system.html



The Berlin law freezing rent levels will obviously have no effect on the utility cost rip-off scheme…

Additionally, the modus operandi of the large scale property owners upon acquiring a new building always includes an instant price increase if you are lucky… If you are not lucky, your building will be instantly modernized which translates into slapping Styrofoam on the outside making it a prime candidate to become the next Grenfell Tower + Show Spoiler +
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower#Fire
and painting over the stairwell for the lovely cost of doubling your rent.

Lastly, there has to be a shout out to certain politicians who enable this kind of rip-off to thrive. I guess it is up to debate why they do it, but for all practical purposes it does not really matter if they are absolutely incompetent idiots or simply sellouts. The bulk of the property owned by the large scale enterprises stems from buying out communal property built with the tax-payers’ money. Why local politicians would agree to selling profitable communal property is anyone’s guess, but a good hint at why this is probably plain corruption is the modern saying: “paying property acquisition tax is for suckers”. If you or I would buy a house we would have to pay 3.5% to 6.5% tax for the acquisition. Large scale property owners generally do not pay this tax - especially when buying communal property. The short version is that they “only” acquire 99.x% of the property which exempts them from this tax.

Ultimately, for all I care Deutsche Wohnen and other similar enterprises can go choke on a male reproductive organ preferably with everyone who gifted them communal property.

Well ‘nice’ to see such companies are shit across different countries. I echo your sentiment that seizing their property would be fine.

If your business is predicated on exploiting every loophole imaginable and the difficulty of your customers challenging your practices due to that pesky ‘needing somewhere to live’ issue, or the cost of challenging, it’s not a great exemplar of the free market in action.

I imagine the average person doesn’t realise quite how much they’re taking the piss or the mechanics of how they do so or they’d be more angry than many already are.

Generally whenever the issue raises its head over here the small individual landlords are wheeled out to ward people off reform but I don’t see why the excesses of such companies couldn’t be clamped down on in a way that doesn’t impact the smaller operations.


'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 07 2020 21:23 GMT
#25318
Fuck.

It's not even a lifetime since the end of WW2 and again we have a fascist and extreme right wing party in a parliament crowning a regional leader by duping the conservatives who are afraid of left wing "extremists".

Fuck fuck fuck
passive quaranstream fan
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 08 2020 02:52 GMT
#25319
On February 08 2020 06:23 Artisreal wrote:
Fuck.

It's not even a lifetime since the end of WW2 and again we have a fascist and extreme right wing party in a parliament crowning a regional leader by duping the conservatives who are afraid of left wing "extremists".

Fuck fuck fuck


Lifetime is a bad measure. Population changes much faster than what people believe. Every year you get like 3% change through births, deaths, immigration and emigration.

The people born 30 years after WW2 (so in the 70s) were already pretty much exclusively brought up by second-hand experiences of their 20-35 year old parents.
People that were teenagers and young grown-ups at the end of the war are now great-grand parents or rather mostly dead. For people in their 50s and 60s WW2 is already merely a second hand story.

Hitler and the Nazis are closer to a meme these days than to a something that can be taken overly serious in discussions. Because most people dont know and dont care, it is not a part of their everyday culture.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-08 09:12:00
February 08 2020 09:11 GMT
#25320
That's simply to say we still have the last witnesses and even before everyone who lived to see it is dead we're already well on the way to marginalising it
passive quaranstream fan
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