|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On October 18 2019 20:25 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 19:23 Elmonti wrote:@Opisska 1- Please, don't compare the Catalunya situation with the one in the Balcans in the 90s... It's a huge lack of respect for them... It would be more similar to Scotland or Quebec. 2- Catalonia is not a colony nor it is opressed ("opressed" doesn't mean "they won't let me do whatever I want breaking the Constitution I voted in 1978"), and it has never been in the last 2 centuries, so the UN self-determination stuff cannot be applied to them. It's one of the richest regions, the second one with the highest inversion from the State (after Andalucía: www.lavanguardia.com) and it is considered the most important region along with Madrid in general terms). Some people are burning cars or public stuff, or blocking roads or train tracks... If you call opression the fact that Police (both State Police and Catalonian police, the Mossos D'esquadra, controlled by the catalonian regional goverment) are trying to control the riots... 3- You should know, Catalonian separatis movement has been pushed these last few years by a right wing middle-upper class aristocracy (CIU party, with HUGE corruption issues, just like the spanish PP) who has been getting more and more power thanks to supporting both PP and PSOE so that they could form a Goverment... The catalonian independence movement is an economic movement: "We produce a lot of wealthy and we feel we don't get back what wee should, so we want to be independent and keep that wealthy to ourselves". That can be seen from many angels: some think it's logic and deserved, some think it's a lack of solidarity, etc... So here we are, we have left-wing youngsters protesting in the street so that those right-wing guys from the Catalonian goverment don't have to share the power/money/corruption with the Spanish goverment. 4- When you talk to your friends, whether they are hardcore spanish nationalists or ardent catalonian independent, keep that in mind and approach their arguments with a bit of criticism... Things usually aren't white or black, and both sides will paint it that way... Regarding point 2: if you think Franco didn't specifically target the Catalan region or culture, you need to study your history better. Catalunya was definitely oppressed during Franco's regime. Not saying Franco was good for other parts of Spain, but political oppression hit the minority cultures, as he took a page out of the Bourbon kings' playbook in how he wanted to homogenize Spain, with a single language. Didn't help that Catalunya was also one of the regions that fought longest and hardest *against* Franco in the civil war, so he had an axe to grind with them anyway. Other than that, I agree with everything you said. Catalunya currently is not oppressed by the Spanish government. It's worth noting that the national government has a history of playing foul here too. This all started when the constitutional court struck down the "statute of autonomy" in 2010. Had that simply been accepted, the independence movement would never have gone anywhere. And I still don't understand that decision by the courts. Firstly, the very fact that the tribunal was allowed to convene at all is questionable. Some judges came out of retirement just to vote on this issue, and without them the court wouldn't even have had enough members to make a ruling, mainly because the government was intentionally stalling on appointing new judges to the court in order to get this issue ruled on first. Second, I don't even see how the courts had the power to strike down a lot of what they did. I understand that stipulating bits about language, but striking down the fiscal and tax agreements that had already been negotiated between the federal government and the catalan government, doesn't seem like something the constitutional court should be able to do, as the constitution quite explicitly leaves the fiscal arrangements up to lawmakers. Anyway, it was done, and that got the ball rolling. I noticed the difference almost overnight, with many people questioning how much "autonomous communities" even meant if the courts could simply overrule negotiated statutes that had been approved by referendum (an apathetic, shoddy and barely legal referendum, but it met the minimum requirements). Another thing my separatist friends love to point out is that the Spanish Constitution was drafted during a very precarious period and many feared the nation would be plunged into another civil war if the constitution was not passed rapidly and with an overwhelming majority. Moreover, as I said above, Catalonia was oppressed during Franco's time so *any* democratic government was seen as a vast improvement over that previous status quo. Hell, the constitution gave Catalans the right to speak Catalan in the street again. That alone would have gotten people to vote in favor. But that doesn't mean the constitution shouldn't be revised now. That is a huge can of worms, but one that the national government has categorically shut down any time it is brought up (and Catalonia isn't the only one who thinks having a national discussion about the constitution would be a good idea... they have support on that from various political sides). None of this excuses using public funds to organize an unconstitutional referendum and then unilaterally declaring independence. But simply pointing to Catalonia and saying "look at those traitors" as the PP and Cs like to do, or pointing to Madrid and screaming "oppression" as Catalan politicians like to do is getting us nowhere other than escalating into an increasingly polarized society.
Of course I know Catalunya was opressed during Franco's dictatorship, Acrofales... like any other region did. Specially the Basque Country. Madrid was also one of the republican regions which fought hardest agains the "nacionales", Franco's army, and was the heart of the Second Republic. As you said both regions (Basque Country and Catalunya) had their local cultures, languages, etc. opressed, so did the rest of Spain. Repression and mass executions were carried out all over the country, and for decades... The thing is I don't see how that copuld justify an economy-driven independence nowadays, the rest of Spain has NOTHING to do with Franco's opression, as I said they all suffered it in different ways...
I agree with the Constitution stuff: we NEED to revise it and try to improve it. Things are no longer like they used to be in 1978. And I'm not talking about giving X people the right to declare themselves independent (I still believe in bringing the europeans countries closer together so that we grow stronger, not the contrary), but changing the constitution in a lot of aspects.
It's better to ignore both PP and Ciudadanos since all they want to is to earn votes in the rest of Spain, so they use both Euskadi and Catalunya as targets to do so... It's disgusting... In fact, both Regional branches of the PP have spoken openly against this ("How are we supposed to represent PP in these regions since all they do is speak against catalans and basques?").
It's a really complex situation, and I don't see how can we make things better...:
Giving Catalunya the right to be independent? Economy could collapse and both countries would have much less presence in the world. Also Catalunya wouldn't be inside the European Union, so they would have to apply again, and take several years to get into the EU.
Giving Catalunya "special" treatment in terms of self-mangement or taxes, like the Basque Country has? That would anger the rest of regions, and it would be truly unfair (Madrid or Valencia are also "rich" regions, why should they contribute and help the poorest regions like Andalusia or Extremadura?).
Doing nothing and just let the Courts shut down every movement the Generalitat makes? Things will get even worse...
|
On October 18 2019 22:21 Elmonti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 20:25 Acrofales wrote:On October 18 2019 19:23 Elmonti wrote:@Opisska 1- Please, don't compare the Catalunya situation with the one in the Balcans in the 90s... It's a huge lack of respect for them... It would be more similar to Scotland or Quebec. 2- Catalonia is not a colony nor it is opressed ("opressed" doesn't mean "they won't let me do whatever I want breaking the Constitution I voted in 1978"), and it has never been in the last 2 centuries, so the UN self-determination stuff cannot be applied to them. It's one of the richest regions, the second one with the highest inversion from the State (after Andalucía: www.lavanguardia.com) and it is considered the most important region along with Madrid in general terms). Some people are burning cars or public stuff, or blocking roads or train tracks... If you call opression the fact that Police (both State Police and Catalonian police, the Mossos D'esquadra, controlled by the catalonian regional goverment) are trying to control the riots... 3- You should know, Catalonian separatis movement has been pushed these last few years by a right wing middle-upper class aristocracy (CIU party, with HUGE corruption issues, just like the spanish PP) who has been getting more and more power thanks to supporting both PP and PSOE so that they could form a Goverment... The catalonian independence movement is an economic movement: "We produce a lot of wealthy and we feel we don't get back what wee should, so we want to be independent and keep that wealthy to ourselves". That can be seen from many angels: some think it's logic and deserved, some think it's a lack of solidarity, etc... So here we are, we have left-wing youngsters protesting in the street so that those right-wing guys from the Catalonian goverment don't have to share the power/money/corruption with the Spanish goverment. 4- When you talk to your friends, whether they are hardcore spanish nationalists or ardent catalonian independent, keep that in mind and approach their arguments with a bit of criticism... Things usually aren't white or black, and both sides will paint it that way... Regarding point 2: if you think Franco didn't specifically target the Catalan region or culture, you need to study your history better. Catalunya was definitely oppressed during Franco's regime. Not saying Franco was good for other parts of Spain, but political oppression hit the minority cultures, as he took a page out of the Bourbon kings' playbook in how he wanted to homogenize Spain, with a single language. Didn't help that Catalunya was also one of the regions that fought longest and hardest *against* Franco in the civil war, so he had an axe to grind with them anyway. Other than that, I agree with everything you said. Catalunya currently is not oppressed by the Spanish government. It's worth noting that the national government has a history of playing foul here too. This all started when the constitutional court struck down the "statute of autonomy" in 2010. Had that simply been accepted, the independence movement would never have gone anywhere. And I still don't understand that decision by the courts. Firstly, the very fact that the tribunal was allowed to convene at all is questionable. Some judges came out of retirement just to vote on this issue, and without them the court wouldn't even have had enough members to make a ruling, mainly because the government was intentionally stalling on appointing new judges to the court in order to get this issue ruled on first. Second, I don't even see how the courts had the power to strike down a lot of what they did. I understand that stipulating bits about language, but striking down the fiscal and tax agreements that had already been negotiated between the federal government and the catalan government, doesn't seem like something the constitutional court should be able to do, as the constitution quite explicitly leaves the fiscal arrangements up to lawmakers. Anyway, it was done, and that got the ball rolling. I noticed the difference almost overnight, with many people questioning how much "autonomous communities" even meant if the courts could simply overrule negotiated statutes that had been approved by referendum (an apathetic, shoddy and barely legal referendum, but it met the minimum requirements). Another thing my separatist friends love to point out is that the Spanish Constitution was drafted during a very precarious period and many feared the nation would be plunged into another civil war if the constitution was not passed rapidly and with an overwhelming majority. Moreover, as I said above, Catalonia was oppressed during Franco's time so *any* democratic government was seen as a vast improvement over that previous status quo. Hell, the constitution gave Catalans the right to speak Catalan in the street again. That alone would have gotten people to vote in favor. But that doesn't mean the constitution shouldn't be revised now. That is a huge can of worms, but one that the national government has categorically shut down any time it is brought up (and Catalonia isn't the only one who thinks having a national discussion about the constitution would be a good idea... they have support on that from various political sides). None of this excuses using public funds to organize an unconstitutional referendum and then unilaterally declaring independence. But simply pointing to Catalonia and saying "look at those traitors" as the PP and Cs like to do, or pointing to Madrid and screaming "oppression" as Catalan politicians like to do is getting us nowhere other than escalating into an increasingly polarized society. Of course I know Catalunya was opressed during Franco's dictatorship, Acrofales... like any other region did. Specially the Basque Country. Madrid was also one of the republican regions which fought hardest agains the "nacionales", Franco's army, and was the heart of the Second Republic. As you said both regions (Basque Country and Catalunya) had their local cultures, languages, etc. opressed, so did the rest of Spain. Repression and mass executions were carried out all over the country, and for decades... The thing is I don't see how that copuld justify an economy-driven independence nowadays...
Well, you said Catalonia hadn't been oppressed for the past 2 centuries (which I took to mean since the second half of the 1800s when they were finally allowed to tear down Barcelona's city wall and fortress and expand the city into Eixample). I was just pointing out that that wasn't true. And yes, obviously the Basques and other minority cultures were oppressed, but saying the same went for all regions isn't really true. Castillia didn't have its culture repressed, in fact it had it glorified, even though there were plenty of oppressed Castillians.
|
On October 18 2019 22:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 22:21 Elmonti wrote:On October 18 2019 20:25 Acrofales wrote:On October 18 2019 19:23 Elmonti wrote:@Opisska 1- Please, don't compare the Catalunya situation with the one in the Balcans in the 90s... It's a huge lack of respect for them... It would be more similar to Scotland or Quebec. 2- Catalonia is not a colony nor it is opressed ("opressed" doesn't mean "they won't let me do whatever I want breaking the Constitution I voted in 1978"), and it has never been in the last 2 centuries, so the UN self-determination stuff cannot be applied to them. It's one of the richest regions, the second one with the highest inversion from the State (after Andalucía: www.lavanguardia.com) and it is considered the most important region along with Madrid in general terms). Some people are burning cars or public stuff, or blocking roads or train tracks... If you call opression the fact that Police (both State Police and Catalonian police, the Mossos D'esquadra, controlled by the catalonian regional goverment) are trying to control the riots... 3- You should know, Catalonian separatis movement has been pushed these last few years by a right wing middle-upper class aristocracy (CIU party, with HUGE corruption issues, just like the spanish PP) who has been getting more and more power thanks to supporting both PP and PSOE so that they could form a Goverment... The catalonian independence movement is an economic movement: "We produce a lot of wealthy and we feel we don't get back what wee should, so we want to be independent and keep that wealthy to ourselves". That can be seen from many angels: some think it's logic and deserved, some think it's a lack of solidarity, etc... So here we are, we have left-wing youngsters protesting in the street so that those right-wing guys from the Catalonian goverment don't have to share the power/money/corruption with the Spanish goverment. 4- When you talk to your friends, whether they are hardcore spanish nationalists or ardent catalonian independent, keep that in mind and approach their arguments with a bit of criticism... Things usually aren't white or black, and both sides will paint it that way... Regarding point 2: if you think Franco didn't specifically target the Catalan region or culture, you need to study your history better. Catalunya was definitely oppressed during Franco's regime. Not saying Franco was good for other parts of Spain, but political oppression hit the minority cultures, as he took a page out of the Bourbon kings' playbook in how he wanted to homogenize Spain, with a single language. Didn't help that Catalunya was also one of the regions that fought longest and hardest *against* Franco in the civil war, so he had an axe to grind with them anyway. Other than that, I agree with everything you said. Catalunya currently is not oppressed by the Spanish government. It's worth noting that the national government has a history of playing foul here too. This all started when the constitutional court struck down the "statute of autonomy" in 2010. Had that simply been accepted, the independence movement would never have gone anywhere. And I still don't understand that decision by the courts. Firstly, the very fact that the tribunal was allowed to convene at all is questionable. Some judges came out of retirement just to vote on this issue, and without them the court wouldn't even have had enough members to make a ruling, mainly because the government was intentionally stalling on appointing new judges to the court in order to get this issue ruled on first. Second, I don't even see how the courts had the power to strike down a lot of what they did. I understand that stipulating bits about language, but striking down the fiscal and tax agreements that had already been negotiated between the federal government and the catalan government, doesn't seem like something the constitutional court should be able to do, as the constitution quite explicitly leaves the fiscal arrangements up to lawmakers. Anyway, it was done, and that got the ball rolling. I noticed the difference almost overnight, with many people questioning how much "autonomous communities" even meant if the courts could simply overrule negotiated statutes that had been approved by referendum (an apathetic, shoddy and barely legal referendum, but it met the minimum requirements). Another thing my separatist friends love to point out is that the Spanish Constitution was drafted during a very precarious period and many feared the nation would be plunged into another civil war if the constitution was not passed rapidly and with an overwhelming majority. Moreover, as I said above, Catalonia was oppressed during Franco's time so *any* democratic government was seen as a vast improvement over that previous status quo. Hell, the constitution gave Catalans the right to speak Catalan in the street again. That alone would have gotten people to vote in favor. But that doesn't mean the constitution shouldn't be revised now. That is a huge can of worms, but one that the national government has categorically shut down any time it is brought up (and Catalonia isn't the only one who thinks having a national discussion about the constitution would be a good idea... they have support on that from various political sides). None of this excuses using public funds to organize an unconstitutional referendum and then unilaterally declaring independence. But simply pointing to Catalonia and saying "look at those traitors" as the PP and Cs like to do, or pointing to Madrid and screaming "oppression" as Catalan politicians like to do is getting us nowhere other than escalating into an increasingly polarized society. Of course I know Catalunya was opressed during Franco's dictatorship, Acrofales... like any other region did. Specially the Basque Country. Madrid was also one of the republican regions which fought hardest agains the "nacionales", Franco's army, and was the heart of the Second Republic. As you said both regions (Basque Country and Catalunya) had their local cultures, languages, etc. opressed, so did the rest of Spain. Repression and mass executions were carried out all over the country, and for decades... The thing is I don't see how that copuld justify an economy-driven independence nowadays... Well, you said Catalonia hadn't been oppressed for the past 2 centuries (which I took to mean since the second half of the 1800s when they were finally allowed to tear down Barcelona's city wall and fortress and expand the city into Eixample). I was just pointing out that that wasn't true. And yes, obviously the Basques and other minority cultures were oppressed, but saying the same went for all regions isn't really true. Castillia didn't have its culture repressed, in fact it had it glorified, even though there were plenty of oppressed Castillians.
Franco repressed everything possible threat to his regime (or his idea of what Spain should be), wether it came from Catalunya, Castille, Madrid, or wherever... Proof is mass executions and brutal repression were carried out all over the country. It's true that regions with a local culture suffered it the most, since that regional culture was a threat to the Spanish culture as Franco's regime saw it... So I agree with you about that. I think the reasons come from a very long time.
Castille has always been seen as the "heart" of Spain, since the union of the Catholic Kings (Crown of Castille carried most of the economic and militar weight of Spanish Empire for the next 2 centuries) and the Aragon Crown was always a little bit out of that "heart" of the reign. That is one of the reasons why Catalunya, Valencia, etc. never represented Spain as strongly as Castille or Andalusia did (I'm not talking about my point of view by the way)...
Well, it's a far too extent and controversial topic to talk about and I don't think this is the place to do so. Also I would have to study again some stuff to talk properly and accurately about it xD
What I wanted to point, is that I don't think that special or acute repression can be used as an argument in wanting to be independent from Spain.
|
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain. I bet you all support democracy and the right of people to elect their representatives, why are you so against the right of the people to elect representatives of which group of people they will be? Why are you so damn set of keeping the status quo of borders as they are today instead of supporting the adaptation of said border to the wishes of the people living within them. I honestly don't get it and I see most of the discussion here as a reinforcement of my suspicion that it's mostly based in "lazy conservatism" - the tendency of people to valiantly support things as they just are right now because that's how they are used to them being.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Catalunya should be left to leave right now, because that's what they want - the referendum and all the elections are always close to being 50-50, which is a terrible way to make major decisions, but the idea that even talking about independence or trying to assess the public opinion on that is illegal is revolting.
|
Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On October 19 2019 01:24 opisska wrote:
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain. I bet you all support democracy and the right of people to elect their representatives, why are you so against the right of the people to elect representatives of which group of people they will be? Why are you so damn set of keeping the status quo of borders as they are today instead of supporting the adaptation of said border to the wishes of the people living within them. I honestly don't get it and I see most of the discussion here as a reinforcement of my suspicion that it's mostly based in "lazy conservatism" - the tendency of people to valiantly support things as they just are right now because that's how they are used to them being.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Catalunya should be left to leave right now, because that's what they want - the referendum and all the elections are always close to being 50-50, which is a terrible way to make major decisions, but the idea that even talking about independence or trying to assess the public opinion on that is illegal is revolting.
I mean I’m entirely in agreement here, for the most part. Makes zero sense to me for the most part.
That said I could see a situation where a wealthy part of a country split off because it was ‘unfair’ to share the spoils, despite the rest of the country contributing too.
For example people half-jokingly (I hope!) saying London should split off from the UK because it’s where the money is, but in that hypothetical London hoovers up talent from all the poorer areas of the UK, my own especially included in this.
|
On October 19 2019 01:24 opisska wrote:
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain. I bet you all support democracy and the right of people to elect their representatives, why are you so against the right of the people to elect representatives of which group of people they will be? Why are you so damn set of keeping the status quo of borders as they are today instead of supporting the adaptation of said border to the wishes of the people living within them. I honestly don't get it and I see most of the discussion here as a reinforcement of my suspicion that it's mostly based in "lazy conservatism" - the tendency of people to valiantly support things as they just are right now because that's how they are used to them being.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Catalunya should be left to leave right now, because that's what they want - the referendum and all the elections are always close to being 50-50, which is a terrible way to make major decisions, but the idea that even talking about independence or trying to assess the public opinion on that is illegal is revolting.
I give you an example based on Austria (because I am not that well-versed in the Spanish infrastructure):
If Vienna seceeded Austria today it would leave with almost all federal institutions (and all the data stored there), most of the better universities and most national headquarters of firms.
The rest of the country wouldn't be administrable for a decade and countryside people like myself wouldn't be able to attend a good national university in my field, leaving me with the option to leave the country - and thereby lose my own democratic rights of self-determination.
|
On October 19 2019 04:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2019 01:24 opisska wrote:
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain. I bet you all support democracy and the right of people to elect their representatives, why are you so against the right of the people to elect representatives of which group of people they will be? Why are you so damn set of keeping the status quo of borders as they are today instead of supporting the adaptation of said border to the wishes of the people living within them. I honestly don't get it and I see most of the discussion here as a reinforcement of my suspicion that it's mostly based in "lazy conservatism" - the tendency of people to valiantly support things as they just are right now because that's how they are used to them being.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Catalunya should be left to leave right now, because that's what they want - the referendum and all the elections are always close to being 50-50, which is a terrible way to make major decisions, but the idea that even talking about independence or trying to assess the public opinion on that is illegal is revolting. I give you an example based on Austria (because I am not that well-versed in the Spanish infrastructure): If Vienna seceeded Austria today it would leave with almost all federal institutions (and all the data stored there), most of the better universities and most national headquarters of firms. The rest of the country wouldn't be administrable for a decade and countryside people like myself wouldn't be able to attend a good national university in my field, leaving me with the option to leave the country - and thereby lose my own democratic rights of self-determination.
No, this doesn't lose you your rights. This is twisting words to fit your narrative. It's the same bullshit as when people who are against high taxes start saying that it infringes on their "economic freedom".
Have you ever noticed that there has not been a serious movement for secession of capital from the surrounding country, like ... ever? So you are proposing a counterexample which never even threatened to happen, how much of an argument is that? Have you entertained the idea that the people in the capital understand that their wealth is given by being the center of a larger body and that a conglomeration of offices by itself doesn't produce much added value and thus secession would be pretty stupid for them as well?
|
Except that Catalonia is actually rich and their perceived economic superiority is actually one of the reasons for the independence claims. It really only took on momentum from 2010 onwards after the financial crisis.
|
On October 19 2019 01:24 opisska wrote:
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain. I bet you all support democracy and the right of people to elect their representatives, why are you so against the right of the people to elect representatives of which group of people they will be? Why are you so damn set of keeping the status quo of borders as they are today instead of supporting the adaptation of said border to the wishes of the people living within them. I honestly don't get it and I see most of the discussion here as a reinforcement of my suspicion that it's mostly based in "lazy conservatism" - the tendency of people to valiantly support things as they just are right now because that's how they are used to them being.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Catalunya should be left to leave right now, because that's what they want - the referendum and all the elections are always close to being 50-50, which is a terrible way to make major decisions, but the idea that even talking about independence or trying to assess the public opinion on that is illegal is revolting.
Yes, the right to elect representatives is democracy. The right to vote on other specific things that require input from specialists is idiocracy. Splitting a country has so many repercussions and affects so many people, that you need a serious analysis from specialists to make a study and tell you how many zilions each economy will lose. Yes, that is what any economist will tell you.
That's why the whole vote on brexit was an episode of idiocracy. It's like asking people to vote on how they want to build a nuclear reactor. You just don't, because 99% of the people that will vote, have very little knowledge on what that vote means. And the same applies to other instances where some people want independence, like those in Catalonia.
|
Just a few things. Primo de Rivera also targeted Catalonians. And others as well before, and at some point, they fought fiercely for the return of the Borbones against the liberals. You can go back in time all you want, the only true thing is that the attempts to centralize Spain have always failed.
The problem with the whole repressed minorities during Franco's time is that it ignores whatever else everybody else had to endure elsewhere. When I read or listen to people not being able to speak their language freely, it comes to my mind the people who didn't have anything to eat and were living pretty much in the medieval times due to the economic autarchy imposed by Franco, which hit really hard the periphery. Not to speak that they were pretty much ruled by terratenientes and the clerics.
It also comes to my mind that it was Catalonian's aristocracy and capitalist class the ones that worked together with Franco back in the day and profited from it (and Primo de Rivera before him).
Or how the whole argument about Franco "importing" people who were living in the worst misery to work in the cities reminds me to rightwing rhetorical points on immigration in a country were the opportunities elsewhere were really low.
That's why i am baffled when i listen to these minorities being hit hard. All fucking Spain that didn't share Franco's vision was being oppressed. Whatever you think Castillia means is a falsehood.
@Opisska i don't mean to offend you, but it is kind of amusing to read you, because your argument, is pretty much a statement against Catalonian independentists even if you don't realize it. The whole "the same bullshit as when people who are against high taxes start saying that it infringes on their "economic freedom", can be perfectly extrapolated as Catalonian independentists positions because that's for a lot of them, why they feel oppressed.
Now, my personal opinion is that they should have their referendum, and I can understand why the violent riots, legally they have nothing else to do. But that doesn't stop me from thinking that their whole movement is highly hypocritical from their left who just don't want to give back a fair share, and their right, that is just the same rightwing rhetoric you will find between the nationalists and "patriots" from everywhere else.
For the most part, just corrupt and shitbag politicians in both sides fighting for the spoils and whatever benefit they can obtain from it.
|
On October 19 2019 01:24 opisska wrote:
Why are you guys so entrenched in this feudal way of thinking? Whether the independence is somehow warranted or economically good or anything like that is, frankly, irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because while these are the things to consider, they are to be considered by the people in question and not by the entirety of Spain.
I feel like this turns the facts on the head because 'feudalism' is precisely what preceded our European nation-states, and our modern countries based on civic identity rather than ethnic or cultural or linguistic identity put an end to a whole lot of conflict that inevitably is produced by regionalism along narrow lines.
Self-determination isn't an end in itself, it's useful if it leads to human flourishing as well as peace and stability, if it is the result of narrow self-interest, ethnic conflict or whatever else and short-sighted then there's no point in defending it, for the same reasons democracy has limits. The most glaring example is probably the UK, which despite its flaws and the ways in which it sometimes disadvantages Scotland or Ireland is without a doubt preferable to renewed violence and tensions in the face of weakness of the government. There are always second-order effects to something as fundamental as redrawing borders, the case needs to be exceptionally strong.
|
|
|
This has always been ridiculous. The point of the matter is that google can simply say "Okay, we won't list your site then" whenever someone demands that they pay them. Sites need google a lot more than google needs individual sites.
Which is why this copyright reform has always been based on a lie. It was sold as protecting small news companies from google and facebook, when it in fact actually just entrenches big news companies, and makes life harder for the small ones, and neither google nor facebook really care because they have so much market power.
|
Seems like a difficult problem.. how do you make a such a powerful company care then?
|
Introduce a special tax on online advertising which is used to subsidise online content creation. However, it would be a complicated mess to do fairly (the distribution of the money, not the tax).
|
On October 25 2019 19:56 Uldridge wrote:
Seems like a difficult problem.. how do you make a such a powerful company care then?
Smash it into pieces or regulate them like mad and let them pay the bills for it.
|
The problem here isn't with Google, it's with the entrenched publishing companies who keep successfully lobbying European politicians.
Google essentially advertises their news sites for free which drives traffic to them and they're still not satisfied.
|
On October 27 2019 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The problem here isn't with Google, it's with the entrenched publishing companies who keep successfully lobbying European politicians.
Google essentially advertises their news sites for free which drives traffic to them and they're still not satisfied.
I agree. The problem those firms have is with their business model in the www.
They used to make their revenue with "X happened, and this is our perspective on it" with most people just being interested in "X happened". The information that "X happened" is now easily available and noone needs 15 versions (per country) and an agenda behind it anymore. These media companies would need to focus on high quality, premium journalism instead, which is a niche and not as profitable as selling basic information. But that's not bad, it is GREAT that everyone has easy and cheap access to basic news through the internet.
|
On October 27 2019 08:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2019 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The problem here isn't with Google, it's with the entrenched publishing companies who keep successfully lobbying European politicians.
Google essentially advertises their news sites for free which drives traffic to them and they're still not satisfied. I agree. The problem those firms have is with their business model in the www. They used to make their revenue with "X happened, and this is our perspective on it" with most people just being interested in "X happened". The information that "X happened" is now easily available and noone needs 15 versions (per country) and an agenda behind it anymore. These media companies would need to focus on high quality, premium journalism instead, which is a niche and not as profitable as selling basic information. But that's not bad, it is GREAT that everyone has easy and cheap access to basic news through the internet.
That is a good point. Previously you had to pick your agenda (or get it picked for you) to even get access to news at all. Now the risk is that the easiest channels for news will be those financed the best from the agenda they are pushing. So we end up with Fox news, Al Jazeera, Voice of China and RT having the money to actually do news. While many channels that just push news with minimal spin run out of money and thus stop.
I honestly think we could run into a problem of the easily accessible news being even more focused on perspective. Why would people pay for unbiased news when there are so many free alternatives (free to lie or skew). Trying to get it through twitter or Facebook has the same problem. You find a random channel and think it is accurate.
|
Historic flood in Italy as they vote against climate amendments:
(CNN)Veneto regional council, which is located on Venice's Grand Canal, was flooded for the first time in its history on Tuesday night -- just after it rejected measures to combat climate change.
www.cnn.com
Is this as deliciously apropos as it seems?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
