EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1061
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
Rasputin or Noputin! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 27 2018 20:08 xM(Z wrote: dude, you're not getting the context. US is/was to large for its own good for a while so they did what greed dictated and split in two(see the W vs E Roman empire as example here): a part of the world(from US's influence sphere) is republican controlled(jewish leaning+US military) and the other democrat controlled(arab leaning+US espionage services). that being the context and J.O. being a liberal poster child, gives you the following: the clip was a propaganda piece designed to 'help' Democrat's allies across the pond. and @the dudes with a free market fetish: do realize that humans are a commodity. in a self regulating free market(no regulatory state) not only that there will be nothing from stopping humans from killing each others to increase their own value, but also it'll be ... desired. + Show Spoiler + BigJ here will want some state involvement which will have him lose the 'libertarian' argument and Nyx will go for the hippie route with humans+empathy/innate collaboration inclinations etc which will lose him the 'free' argument. that makes them both not only wrong but also fronting the same argument, one that starts with/relies on some form of pre-existing moral/ethical value, either innate or acquired, to support it. PS:their argument in a nutshell: humans will be regulated but everything else will not. yay for freedom! and yay for libertarianism!. The democratic state is a market system itself. If properly done it will create regulations that represent the people's opinions, based on democratic pricing methods. I believe you as many others simply are so indoctrinated with capital fetishism, that you cannot distinguish between free markets and capitalism anymore. The difference of these things is the difference between a differential equation without (free markets) or with a specific starting condition (capitalism, regulations). The differential equation itself is hardly changeable, because people are always free and will act within regulatory systems to their own advantage. The regulations, money, property etc.are exchangeable. The more of these you force upon people,the faster the regulators vision will detorriate from reality until a revolution happens. That's why the Soviet Union collapsed fast, while capitalism collapses slower, or not at all due to the lack of a superior system. It may just reset violently and then get restarted with the same conditions. The states with a strong democratic culture, like Switzerland, the Nordic states, the UK and to some degree the US (historically speaking) are the ones that have the strongest market systems for democracy in place to create mutually benefitial regulatories. That's why they didn't collapse as easily, like in the 30s when fascist and kingdom cultures did, but found ways to tax the rich and repair economical damage caused by capitalism in mutually benefitial ways. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 27 2018 20:08 Longshank wrote: Italy is the excentric and wildly racist granny of Europe. Borderline lunatic yet thought fondly of by the rest of the family. What is the political equivalent of taking away her driver's license because she backed into neighbors deck and them blamed them for moving it? Just wondering what the EU family has for options when Italy goes full nationalist. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Also Italy is not going to go full nationalist. Despite what sosexy might have led you to believe, Italy has gone down the fascist route once upon a time, and is unlikely to repeat it. Whatever the problem Italy now has, it hasn't quite degenerated towards fascism as USA is currently heading towards. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
why is the centre-left coalition dropping in popularity, they seem like the only ones without crazy members | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
There's nothing redeaming about Berlusconi though. He is basically a media mogul using his money and control of the media for social status without any concern for the governance of his country. i don't think he can even run for election. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 28 2018 05:53 Nyxisto wrote: 5 star movement and berlusconi might not be fascism but they're bad enough to be honest why is the centre-left coalition dropping in popularity, they seem like the only ones without crazy members Is this a rhetorical question? Are you aware of the social situation in Italy? By now you should know why S&D are crashing everywhere in Europe... | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On February 28 2018 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: And then there are his ties to the Mafia to consider.If you ignore the anti-EU position of 5 star, I see them as a positive political force for Italy. They seem to be anti-corruption and the anti-EU part appears to be mostly a reaction to that they don't seem to be receiving much help from the EU in dealing with the migrants from Africa, which is to be expected when they are one of the "richer" members of the EU and considering the much lower numbers absorbed compared proportionally to other countries in the EU. There's nothing redeaming about Berlusconi though. He is basically a media mogul using his money and control of the media for social status without any concern for the governance of his country. i don't think he can even run for election. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 28 2018 06:08 TheDwf wrote: Is this a rhetorical question? Are you aware of the social situation in Italy? By now you should know why S&D are crashing everywhere in Europe... I have no idea what's going on in Italy, it wasn't a rhetorical question If you ignore the anti-EU position of 5 star, I see them as a positive political force for Italy. They seem to be anti-corruption aren't they involved in their own corruption scandal right now? | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On February 28 2018 05:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The video is not available in the UK, so can you tell me what got plansix and longshanks all so riled up? My point was that I wasn't riled up by the video. It just showed kooky Italy doing kooky Italian things, and despite that, I still love that country. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On February 28 2018 05:53 Nyxisto wrote: 5 star movement and berlusconi might not be fascism but they're bad enough to be honest why is the centre-left coalition dropping in popularity, they seem like the only ones without crazy members Same reason why people hate the Democrats. They aren't insane or crazy like Trump, but they were such a disgrace that even people who are otherwise rational could not fathom supporting them. I would vote for center-left if I was in Italy, but I can't fault people for supporting Five Star or the various nationalist parties because of just how much of a bad taste Renzi's term was. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18478 Posts
On February 28 2018 20:38 Shiragaku wrote: Same reason why people hate the Democrats. They aren't insane or crazy like Trump, but they were such a disgrace that even people who are otherwise rational could not fathom supporting them. I would vote for center-left if I was in Italy, but I can't fault people for supporting Five Star or the various nationalist parties because of just how much of a bad taste Renzi's term was. To be honest, I don't understand where this hatred of Renzi comes from.What I understoond was that he proposed a much-needed change to the governmental structure, requiring a constitutional change. He tied his political future to a referendum on that issue (perhaps naively). The Italians voted against changing their government's structure (and thus *for* eternal deadlock on important reforms), and Renzi resigned (as promised) in disgrace. I don't really understand what he did wrong in the eyes of the center-left. Should he have seized the opportunity and forced constitutional change regardless? Not have tied his political career to that? Is it that he made the referendum more about him (and getting rid of him) than about the constitutional change? | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On February 28 2018 20:54 Acrofales wrote: To be honest, I don't understand where this hatred of Renzi comes from.What I understoond was that he proposed a much-needed change to the governmental structure, requiring a constitutional change. He tied his political future to a referendum on that issue (perhaps naively). The Italians voted against changing their government's structure (and thus *for* eternal deadlock on important reforms), and Renzi resigned (as promised) in disgrace. I don't really understand what he did wrong in the eyes of the center-left. Should he have seized the opportunity and forced constitutional change regardless? Not have tied his political career to that? Is it that he made the referendum more about him (and getting rid of him) than about the constitutional change? There was much needed reform to labour policies, but if history told us anything, whenever a center-left party adopts liberal reform, there is always a huge backlash from their own camp with splits and defections to the nationalists while their conservative opposition shrugs and gets ready for the next election. No matter how practical it may be, people with shaky job security are not going to react rationally to laws that decrease security. Plus on the issue of immigration, most people do not like seeing migrants enter their country in huge numbers and Renzi did a poor job appealing to those voices and is letting those issues be taken up by less than savory politicians. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
When we look at right-wing "liberalism" it is apparent that all their reforms are either Keynesian debt-stimuli (Reagan, Bush, Bush, Trump), or they lead to export-based production that are met with trade barriers or lead to crisis in other countries and lead to more of the same medicine being "necessary" a few years later. And that's just the collective vision on it. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On February 28 2018 18:01 Longshank wrote: My point was that I wasn't riled up by the video. It just showed kooky Italy doing kooky Italian things, and despite that, I still love that country. I still have no clue what's in the video. I don't really see what is so "Italy is the excentric and wildly racist granny of Europe. Borderline lunatic" if you don't tell me what it is that you saw. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 28 2018 21:54 Big J wrote: The reason why many left-wingers react so badly to those liberal reforms is that in their - my - eyes they are not "much needed". They at best release some surficial pressure on some fronts, but they don't deal with the causes. In contrary, such reforms make capital distributions worse, weaken demand and market power of the labouring people and thereby naturally lead to the next "necessary" reform, once the effects of the loss of demand kick in. When we look at right-wing "liberalism" it is apparent that all their reforms are either Keynesian debt-stimuli (Reagan, Bush, Bush, Trump), or they lead to export-based production that are met with trade barriers or lead to crisis in other countries and lead to more of the same medicine being "necessary" a few years later. And that's just the collective vision on it. The alternative for left-wingers seems to be to schism into 10 different communist or socialist parties, marching through the streets on election day and tolerating a rise of right-wing politics just to then glee over the demise of the centre-left while saying "we told you so!" Here's a good article from the left perspective on why the left ought to throw their lot in with the liberals. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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