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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1022

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18396 Posts
December 22 2017 23:44 GMT
#20421
Where have leftists in power ever combat these things you speak of, Big J (Stoping weapon exports, fighting climate change, sending aid, stop one-sided trade agreements.)?

Certainly not in Austria where the Green are in several top positions and practically just do what everyone does. But on the other hand they fought a lot for gendering the German language lol.
A3th3r
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
United States319 Posts
December 23 2017 12:24 GMT
#20422
I think the real reason that the EU is so hot under the collar about Britain leaving the EU is that this now puts the EU just slightly behind the US in terms of G.D.P. figures
stale trite schlub
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 24 2017 05:09 GMT
#20423
On December 23 2017 21:24 A3th3r wrote:
I think the real reason that the EU is so hot under the collar about Britain leaving the EU is that this now puts the EU just slightly behind the US in terms of G.D.P. figures

They don’t like having so little leverage to punish the UK on the way out. The latest I saw was too many May government concessions for this stage of the negotiations. I really miss bardtown’s takes.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-24 08:26:05
December 24 2017 08:23 GMT
#20424
some updates:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-romania-judiciary/eu-embassies-urge-romania-to-rethink-judicial-overhaul-idUKKBN1EF2CP?rpc=401&
BUCHAREST (Reuters) - Seven European Union states urged Romania’s ruling coalition on Thursday to avoid legislation that could weaken its judiciary and the fight against corruption, hours after senators approved a contentious overhaul of the justice system.

Senators passed the last of three bills which critics say limit the independence of magistrates and which have triggered street protests across Romania, widely regarded as one of the EU’s most corrupt states.

The three bills change the process of appointing chief prosecutors and set up a special unit to probe crimes committed by magistrates, making them the only professional category with a prosecuting unit dedicated to investigating them.

France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden said in a joint statement from their embassies in Bucharest that the bills and criminal code changes under debate in parliament undermined Romania’s progress on judicial reforms.

“We appeal to the parties involved in the justice reform project to avoid any action that could lead to weakening the independence of the justice system and of the fight against corruption,” the joint statement said.

The seven states joined a chorus of criticism that included the European Commission, the U.S. State Department, thousands of Romanian magistrates and centrist President Klaus Iohannis.
...
The proposed changes place Romania alongside its eastern European peers Hungary and Poland, where populist leaders are also trying to control the judiciary, in defying EU concerns over the rule of law.

The Commission launched an unprecedented action on Poland on Wednesday, calling on other member states to prepare to sanction Warsaw if it fails to reverse judicial reforms it says pose a threat to democracy.
the way the laws are rolling out it looks to give official bribery an open season.

http://www.intellinews.com/romania-s-parliament-takes-axe-to-legislation-on-professional-management-at-state-controlled-companies-134518/?source=romania
Dozens of Romanian state-controlled companies will no longer be required to appoint professional management under amendments approved by the parliament on December 20.

The government will thus be allowed to return to the arbitrary practice of appointing management based on political grounds.

MPs voted to waive Law 109/2011, which stipulates the appointment of professional management, for a long list of enterprises that includes most large state-controlled companies like Hidroelectrica, Constanta Port and Bucharest Airports. Furthermore, the government is given the right to include more companies on the list by decree.

The law was originally endorsed as a performance criterion set under Romania’s former stand-by agreement with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Waiving it for most state-controlled companies calls into question the government’s commitment to improving corporate management at these companies, and has been slammed by the investor community.

The Foreign Investment Council (FIC) warned of the gradual weakening of the rule of law in Romania. The FIC brings together companies with an aggregate turnover accounting for 25% of the country’s GDP.

In particular the amendment of Law 109/2011 threatens the country’s OECD candidacy, which is one of the targets set by the ruling coalition, the FIC warned.
so, name state company managers on political grounds then wait for the highest briber to come along.

on the other side http://www.business-review.eu/news/ilan-laufer-romania-is-the-most-pro-american-country-in-the-eu-record-bilateral-trade-volumes-reached-in-2017-154776
Ilan Laufer, the Romanian Minister for the Business Environment, Commerce and Entrepreneurship and US Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross took part in a meeting on the subject of the new historical high in the commercial trade between Romania and the United States, as well as the stepping-up of the bilateral cooperation between the two countries. The Romanian Ambassador to the United States, George Maior, also attended the meeting.

The Ministry states that Romania is the best example from Eastern and Central Europe of the commitment shown to the US regarding transatlantic security. Minister Laufer said: “we are the most pro-American country in the EU and we support the United States’ leadership and important status in the world”.

Due to the fact that Romania has allocated 2 percent of GDP for Defense and directed over 40 percent of the defense budget for the acquisition of cutting-edge military technology, the Romanian-American economic relationship is going through its most important historical moment in 2017, as by the end of this year the commercial trades between the two countries will exceed USD 3 billion.

Some examples of Romania’s collaboration with the US on military technology include the USD 4 billion Patriot system acquisition, the future HIMARS purchase worth USD 1.25 billion, the collaboration on the F16 airplanes, as well as the cooperation with Bell Helicopter and General Dynamics.

As a result of these decisions, Romania has been an example in the region regarding cooperation with American companies for the development of strategic capacity, in sectors such as defense, cyber security, energy and IT.

Laufer stated: “We’ve asked Secretary Wilbur Ross to support Romania in being granted the ‘dependable undertaking status’, which will allow payments to the USA to be made in instalments and give Romania the status of a serious and consistent partner”. Ross also assured Laufer that the US will support Romania’s intention to join the OECD.

also, the PSD(ruling party) president is thinking of moving the embassy to Jerusalem(Netanyahu hinted that more embassies are 'thinking of" that and i'm betting Poland is there too(both countries abstained from the recent UN vote on Israel capital)).

imo, with US(pro israelis-republicans) controlling the eastern flank of EU, UK out, Turkey controlling the entry to the Middle East and N-Africa in a total mess, shits looking bleak for them geuropeans.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
MyTHicaL
Profile Joined November 2005
France1070 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-25 21:50:18
December 25 2017 21:49 GMT
#20425
On December 24 2017 14:09 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2017 21:24 A3th3r wrote:
I think the real reason that the EU is so hot under the collar about Britain leaving the EU is that this now puts the EU just slightly behind the US in terms of G.D.P. figures

They don’t like having so little leverage to punish the UK on the way out. The latest I saw was too many May government concessions for this stage of the negotiations. I really miss bardtown’s takes.


Ahh you have come from the US thread to now attempt to infect (yet again) this one? Bardtown is your English philosophical twin, I too miss him because he at least gave some insight into the insane mentality of the optimistic deluded Brexiteer.

The EU has all the leverage. I say that holding a UK passport. The EU doesn't care about the US's GDP, all we need to do is turn on the TV to see the amount of problems your country has. Furthermore to quote that CEO of alibaba (cannot remember his name), is that with all your GDP you fund privately owned entities and wars, that is why so much of your industry and infrastructure is in shambles. GDP is not a very useful tool to measure a country's economic power, not uniquely anyways.

People these days turn these major geopolitical debates into some sort of sport's team argument, not enough actual data to bass your claims on anything just a "my team is better than yours" mentality. zzzzzzzzzz
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9188 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-27 09:19:32
December 27 2017 09:19 GMT
#20426
imo, with US(pro israelis-republicans) controlling the eastern flank of EU, UK out, Turkey controlling the entry to the Middle East and N-Africa in a total mess, shits looking bleak for them geuropeans.


B-but how could this happen?

Germany puts Germany first
Berlin’s reverence for multilateralism is a thin veil for its nationalist foreign policy.

(...)

American political leaders have long explained their country’s foreign policies as a form of enlightened self-interest. Their German counterparts have gone out of their way to portray themselves as guided by enlightened selflessness. And the election of U.S. President Donald Trump has provided Germans with ripe opportunities to contrast their cooperative, internationalist outlook with the president’s “America First” nationalism.

In a barely-disguised attack on Trump’s worldview at the United Nations General Assembly earlier this year, Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel condemned “national selfishness” and declared that “The motto ‘Our country first’ only leads to more national confrontations and less prosperity.” Gabriel repeated these criticisms at a conference in Berlin earlier this month, lamenting the U.S.’s “withdrawal under Trump from its role as a reliable guarantor of Western-influenced multilateralism.”

Berlin’s paeans to multilateralism and reproaches to nationalism, however, mask a foreign policy that is often itself unilateral and nationalist. An example of such hypocrisy was unintentionally provided by Gabriel himself. Among a litany of American policies supposedly undermining the liberal international order, he included newly introduced U.S. sanctions on Moscow that may affect German gas pipelines to Russia. Such measures, Gabriel warned, “pose an existential threat to our own economic interests.”

(...)

“Nord Stream lies in Germany’s interests,” Gabriel often said when he was Germany’s economics minister. But it doesn’t lie in Europe’s.

Nord Stream is but the most blatant example of how German foreign policy forsakes its own Central and Eastern European EU and NATO allies to the benefit of Russia, an adversary that, with its seizure of Crimea, perpetrated the first armed annexation in Europe since Hitler.

Rather than apply that historical experience into a tougher policy against today’s territorial revisionists in the Kremlin, German policymakers often do the opposite, citing their country’s fraught wartime past with the Soviet Union as reason to seek rapprochement with Russia — no matter how wantonly aggressive it behaves. Case in point: Gabriel called upon the EU to “initiate the first steps towards removing sanctions” on Russia pending a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, even though such a concession would fall far short of what’s mandated by the Minsk accords.

This selective reading of history has real-world consequences. A recent Pew poll of publics in NATO countries found Germans were the least likely to support defending fellow allies against Russian attack, as mandated by Article 5 of the alliance’s charter (a key component of the “liberal world order” whose alleged destruction at Trump’s hands German elites constantly bemoan).

(...)

When NATO undertook exercises in Eastern Europe in summer 2016 to reassure members made anxious by Russia’s ongoing war in Ukraine, then German Foreign Minister (and current President) Frank-Walter Steinmeier echoed Kremlin propaganda by labeling the maneuvers “saber-rattling and warmongering.”

In its insouciance toward its security commitments, Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump, who frequently undermined NATO’s mutual defense clause before explicitly endorsing it in his speech at Warsaw. And Germany’s strategic confusion and lack of moral clarity transcends the current occupant of the White House; by 28 percent to 25 percent Germans prefer Russia as a partner to the United States, the country that liberated them from themselves and provided the conditions for their post-war economic boom and political stability.

Germany’s paltry defense budget (only 1.2 percent of GDP, far short of the 2 percent recommended of all NATO members) and vastly under-equipped military further exemplify its national narrow-mindedness. As Europe’s most populous country and economic powerhouse, Germany should be contributing far more to the Continent’s collective defense. When Germany’s NATO allies intervened to protect innocent Libyans from the depredations of the Gaddafi regime, not only did Berlin sit out, it abstained on a vote at the United Nations Security Council authorizing the mission.

Responding to criticism of their meager defense expenditure, Germans often self-effacingly claim that the last thing the Continent needs or wants is a Germany that’s once again militarily powerful. Some offering this excuse sincerely believe that Germany, because of its past, should never again be trusted with the use of military force; but many just wish to unburden themselves of international obligations and cynically cite eternal historical trauma to justify that desire.

(...)

Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-puts-germany-first-defense-politics-foreign-policy/

I bet some Germans feel annoyed by this constant criticism of their country coming from foreigners. Well, it's time to get used to it, as "with great power comes great responsibility". Americans can probably give you some tips on how to ignore the noise.

I don't share some of the views presented above, but I think this article should make it easier to understand why the 'Eastern flank' still prefers to follow the American lead.
You're now breathing manually
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 27 2017 11:01 GMT
#20427
Since 1945 Germany and "its allies" did not need German military or any other military for self-defense at all. But it serves the nationalist-conservative agenda of the ruling parties of europe when they find a way to critizise Germany on not being solidaric enough, although on all other topics like economics or migration solidarity is the mutual enemy.
But hey, maybe the German middle class can be milked a little more to provide for more wealth of weapon makers that then sponsor right-wing papers and parties and enrichen themselves.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10692 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-27 14:09:57
December 27 2017 13:41 GMT
#20428
Yeah... I don't get it.

Germany wanting something for the EU (like for a example a coherent refugee policy or at least a bit of "help" with it)... Nuhhh... Eastern europe is running away screaming (but comes back to take its paychecks).
Germany not willing to put back all its interests and/or wanting to invest in an unneeded Military? Germany so bad and selfish, lets vote some more for our nationalist anti eu/german parties.



Not that i'm a fan of much that Germany does/did... But compared to most eastern european countries they are a shining beacon of hope.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 27 2017 14:06 GMT
#20429
On December 27 2017 18:19 Sent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
imo, with US(pro israelis-republicans) controlling the eastern flank of EU, UK out, Turkey controlling the entry to the Middle East and N-Africa in a total mess, shits looking bleak for them geuropeans.


B-but how could this happen?

Show nested quote +
Germany puts Germany first
Berlin’s reverence for multilateralism is a thin veil for its nationalist foreign policy.

(...)

American political leaders have long explained their country’s foreign policies as a form of enlightened self-interest. Their German counterparts have gone out of their way to portray themselves as guided by enlightened selflessness. And the election of U.S. President Donald Trump has provided Germans with ripe opportunities to contrast their cooperative, internationalist outlook with the president’s “America First” nationalism.

In a barely-disguised attack on Trump’s worldview at the United Nations General Assembly earlier this year, Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel condemned “national selfishness” and declared that “The motto ‘Our country first’ only leads to more national confrontations and less prosperity.” Gabriel repeated these criticisms at a conference in Berlin earlier this month, lamenting the U.S.’s “withdrawal under Trump from its role as a reliable guarantor of Western-influenced multilateralism.”

Berlin’s paeans to multilateralism and reproaches to nationalism, however, mask a foreign policy that is often itself unilateral and nationalist. An example of such hypocrisy was unintentionally provided by Gabriel himself. Among a litany of American policies supposedly undermining the liberal international order, he included newly introduced U.S. sanctions on Moscow that may affect German gas pipelines to Russia. Such measures, Gabriel warned, “pose an existential threat to our own economic interests.”

(...)

“Nord Stream lies in Germany’s interests,” Gabriel often said when he was Germany’s economics minister. But it doesn’t lie in Europe’s.

Nord Stream is but the most blatant example of how German foreign policy forsakes its own Central and Eastern European EU and NATO allies to the benefit of Russia, an adversary that, with its seizure of Crimea, perpetrated the first armed annexation in Europe since Hitler.

Rather than apply that historical experience into a tougher policy against today’s territorial revisionists in the Kremlin, German policymakers often do the opposite, citing their country’s fraught wartime past with the Soviet Union as reason to seek rapprochement with Russia — no matter how wantonly aggressive it behaves. Case in point: Gabriel called upon the EU to “initiate the first steps towards removing sanctions” on Russia pending a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, even though such a concession would fall far short of what’s mandated by the Minsk accords.

This selective reading of history has real-world consequences. A recent Pew poll of publics in NATO countries found Germans were the least likely to support defending fellow allies against Russian attack, as mandated by Article 5 of the alliance’s charter (a key component of the “liberal world order” whose alleged destruction at Trump’s hands German elites constantly bemoan).

(...)

When NATO undertook exercises in Eastern Europe in summer 2016 to reassure members made anxious by Russia’s ongoing war in Ukraine, then German Foreign Minister (and current President) Frank-Walter Steinmeier echoed Kremlin propaganda by labeling the maneuvers “saber-rattling and warmongering.”

In its insouciance toward its security commitments, Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump, who frequently undermined NATO’s mutual defense clause before explicitly endorsing it in his speech at Warsaw. And Germany’s strategic confusion and lack of moral clarity transcends the current occupant of the White House; by 28 percent to 25 percent Germans prefer Russia as a partner to the United States, the country that liberated them from themselves and provided the conditions for their post-war economic boom and political stability.

Germany’s paltry defense budget (only 1.2 percent of GDP, far short of the 2 percent recommended of all NATO members) and vastly under-equipped military further exemplify its national narrow-mindedness. As Europe’s most populous country and economic powerhouse, Germany should be contributing far more to the Continent’s collective defense. When Germany’s NATO allies intervened to protect innocent Libyans from the depredations of the Gaddafi regime, not only did Berlin sit out, it abstained on a vote at the United Nations Security Council authorizing the mission.

Responding to criticism of their meager defense expenditure, Germans often self-effacingly claim that the last thing the Continent needs or wants is a Germany that’s once again militarily powerful. Some offering this excuse sincerely believe that Germany, because of its past, should never again be trusted with the use of military force; but many just wish to unburden themselves of international obligations and cynically cite eternal historical trauma to justify that desire.

(...)

Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-puts-germany-first-defense-politics-foreign-policy/

I bet some Germans feel annoyed by this constant criticism of their country coming from foreigners. Well, it's time to get used to it, as "with great power comes great responsibility". Americans can probably give you some tips on how to ignore the noise.

I don't share some of the views presented above, but I think this article should make it easier to understand why the 'Eastern flank' still prefers to follow the American lead.

Jesus, this paper... Thanks for reminding me why I so passionately hate neocon propaganda.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 27 2017 14:36 GMT
#20430
Macron gets tough as France struggles to deal with migrants

PARIS — It's getting colder, the clock is ticking and regional authorities are scrambling to meet President Emmanuel Macron's deadline: get migrants off France's streets and out of forest hideouts by year's end.

That won't likely happen, and Macron's government is now tightening the screws: ramping up expulsions, raising pressure on economic migrants and allowing divisive ID checks in emergency shelters.

Critics contend that Macron's increasingly tough policy on migrants — though wrapped in a cloak of goodwill — contradicts his image as a humanist who defeated an anti-immigrant populist for the presidency, and has crossed a line passed by no other president in the land that prides itself as the cradle of human rights.

(...)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/europe/macrons-firm-migrant-policy-in-france-tarnishes-human-touch/2017/12/26/950b8ef0-ea2a-11e7-956e-baea358f9725_story.html

A good paper on Macron's usual Two-Face methods. Macron promised a "humanist" policy; the result is that Le Pen's husband actually praised the government's migration policy, and the FN rejoiced about a "political victory".

People who help migrants are still criminalized, just like under Hollande. Associations unanimously criticized what the government is doing, and said that they would not cooperate with authorities to sort out people who don't have a shelter.

On another theme, Macron is going to toughen controls on unemployed persons, probably à la Hartz IV.

I wonder how long some will still insist on presenting him as a "moderate centrist" when he has a hard right stance on so many topics. Then again, Hollande was called a left-winger until the end, even when he was governing to the right of Sarkozy on almost everything. Go figure...
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9188 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-27 16:39:39
December 27 2017 16:36 GMT
#20431
Seems like I need to start with quoting one sentence again.

Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


I understand why some could see my post as nothing but "GERMANY BAD", but that wasn't what I was trying to say. I just think it's wrong to describe Germany as a selfless "beacon of hope" ruled by the "new leader of the free world". The country acts in its own interest and there is nothing wrong with that. I think it's ignorant or dishonest to present the German government's position as selfless and the opposing one as egoistic.

On December 27 2017 23:06 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2017 18:19 Sent. wrote:
imo, with US(pro israelis-republicans) controlling the eastern flank of EU, UK out, Turkey controlling the entry to the Middle East and N-Africa in a total mess, shits looking bleak for them geuropeans.


B-but how could this happen?

Germany puts Germany first
Berlin’s reverence for multilateralism is a thin veil for its nationalist foreign policy.

(...)

American political leaders have long explained their country’s foreign policies as a form of enlightened self-interest. Their German counterparts have gone out of their way to portray themselves as guided by enlightened selflessness. And the election of U.S. President Donald Trump has provided Germans with ripe opportunities to contrast their cooperative, internationalist outlook with the president’s “America First” nationalism.

In a barely-disguised attack on Trump’s worldview at the United Nations General Assembly earlier this year, Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel condemned “national selfishness” and declared that “The motto ‘Our country first’ only leads to more national confrontations and less prosperity.” Gabriel repeated these criticisms at a conference in Berlin earlier this month, lamenting the U.S.’s “withdrawal under Trump from its role as a reliable guarantor of Western-influenced multilateralism.”

Berlin’s paeans to multilateralism and reproaches to nationalism, however, mask a foreign policy that is often itself unilateral and nationalist. An example of such hypocrisy was unintentionally provided by Gabriel himself. Among a litany of American policies supposedly undermining the liberal international order, he included newly introduced U.S. sanctions on Moscow that may affect German gas pipelines to Russia. Such measures, Gabriel warned, “pose an existential threat to our own economic interests.”

(...)

“Nord Stream lies in Germany’s interests,” Gabriel often said when he was Germany’s economics minister. But it doesn’t lie in Europe’s.

Nord Stream is but the most blatant example of how German foreign policy forsakes its own Central and Eastern European EU and NATO allies to the benefit of Russia, an adversary that, with its seizure of Crimea, perpetrated the first armed annexation in Europe since Hitler.

Rather than apply that historical experience into a tougher policy against today’s territorial revisionists in the Kremlin, German policymakers often do the opposite, citing their country’s fraught wartime past with the Soviet Union as reason to seek rapprochement with Russia — no matter how wantonly aggressive it behaves. Case in point: Gabriel called upon the EU to “initiate the first steps towards removing sanctions” on Russia pending a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, even though such a concession would fall far short of what’s mandated by the Minsk accords.

This selective reading of history has real-world consequences. A recent Pew poll of publics in NATO countries found Germans were the least likely to support defending fellow allies against Russian attack, as mandated by Article 5 of the alliance’s charter (a key component of the “liberal world order” whose alleged destruction at Trump’s hands German elites constantly bemoan).

(...)

When NATO undertook exercises in Eastern Europe in summer 2016 to reassure members made anxious by Russia’s ongoing war in Ukraine, then German Foreign Minister (and current President) Frank-Walter Steinmeier echoed Kremlin propaganda by labeling the maneuvers “saber-rattling and warmongering.”

In its insouciance toward its security commitments, Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump, who frequently undermined NATO’s mutual defense clause before explicitly endorsing it in his speech at Warsaw. And Germany’s strategic confusion and lack of moral clarity transcends the current occupant of the White House; by 28 percent to 25 percent Germans prefer Russia as a partner to the United States, the country that liberated them from themselves and provided the conditions for their post-war economic boom and political stability.

Germany’s paltry defense budget (only 1.2 percent of GDP, far short of the 2 percent recommended of all NATO members) and vastly under-equipped military further exemplify its national narrow-mindedness. As Europe’s most populous country and economic powerhouse, Germany should be contributing far more to the Continent’s collective defense. When Germany’s NATO allies intervened to protect innocent Libyans from the depredations of the Gaddafi regime, not only did Berlin sit out, it abstained on a vote at the United Nations Security Council authorizing the mission.

Responding to criticism of their meager defense expenditure, Germans often self-effacingly claim that the last thing the Continent needs or wants is a Germany that’s once again militarily powerful. Some offering this excuse sincerely believe that Germany, because of its past, should never again be trusted with the use of military force; but many just wish to unburden themselves of international obligations and cynically cite eternal historical trauma to justify that desire.

(...)

Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-puts-germany-first-defense-politics-foreign-policy/

I bet some Germans feel annoyed by this constant criticism of their country coming from foreigners. Well, it's time to get used to it, as "with great power comes great responsibility". Americans can probably give you some tips on how to ignore the noise.

I don't share some of the views presented above, but I think this article should make it easier to understand why the 'Eastern flank' still prefers to follow the American lead.

Jesus, this paper... Thanks for reminding me why I so passionately hate neocon propaganda.


Heeey it was an opinion piece, other views are represented there too.

It's amusing to see both the far right and far left describe politico as a propaganda outlet ("neocon" or "leftist", depending on who's complaining).
You're now breathing manually
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 27 2017 16:55 GMT
#20432
On December 28 2017 01:36 Sent. wrote:
Seems like I need to start with quoting one sentence again.

Show nested quote +
Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


I understand why some could see my post as nothing but "GERMANY BAD", but that wasn't what I was trying to say. I just think it's wrong to describe Germany as a selfless "beacon of hope" ruled by the "new leader of the free world". The country acts in its own interest and there is nothing wrong with that. I think it's ignorant or dishonest to present the German government's position as selfless and the opposing one as egoistic.

But who said that Germany is selfless? I mean, some German ministers may claim that, but who cares?

Also, as far as I'm concerned the post doesn't read as much as "Germany is bad" as "Germany should bow to my stupid neocon US imperialist agenda". Which is why it's so rich that it labels Germany as "selfish", since the author literally behaves like a lord gathering his vassals and demanding complete alliegance from them; all of this to make them join his crusade against Russia. The mere fact that a US neocon claims that anyone's "reverence for multilateralism" is "a thin veil for their nationalism" is golden in itself. No nation is as radically self-centered, unilateral and imperialist as the US.

Show nested quote +
On December 27 2017 23:06 TheDwf wrote:
On December 27 2017 18:19 Sent. wrote:
imo, with US(pro israelis-republicans) controlling the eastern flank of EU, UK out, Turkey controlling the entry to the Middle East and N-Africa in a total mess, shits looking bleak for them geuropeans.


B-but how could this happen?

Germany puts Germany first
Berlin’s reverence for multilateralism is a thin veil for its nationalist foreign policy.

(...)

American political leaders have long explained their country’s foreign policies as a form of enlightened self-interest. Their German counterparts have gone out of their way to portray themselves as guided by enlightened selflessness. And the election of U.S. President Donald Trump has provided Germans with ripe opportunities to contrast their cooperative, internationalist outlook with the president’s “America First” nationalism.

In a barely-disguised attack on Trump’s worldview at the United Nations General Assembly earlier this year, Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel condemned “national selfishness” and declared that “The motto ‘Our country first’ only leads to more national confrontations and less prosperity.” Gabriel repeated these criticisms at a conference in Berlin earlier this month, lamenting the U.S.’s “withdrawal under Trump from its role as a reliable guarantor of Western-influenced multilateralism.”

Berlin’s paeans to multilateralism and reproaches to nationalism, however, mask a foreign policy that is often itself unilateral and nationalist. An example of such hypocrisy was unintentionally provided by Gabriel himself. Among a litany of American policies supposedly undermining the liberal international order, he included newly introduced U.S. sanctions on Moscow that may affect German gas pipelines to Russia. Such measures, Gabriel warned, “pose an existential threat to our own economic interests.”

(...)

“Nord Stream lies in Germany’s interests,” Gabriel often said when he was Germany’s economics minister. But it doesn’t lie in Europe’s.

Nord Stream is but the most blatant example of how German foreign policy forsakes its own Central and Eastern European EU and NATO allies to the benefit of Russia, an adversary that, with its seizure of Crimea, perpetrated the first armed annexation in Europe since Hitler.

Rather than apply that historical experience into a tougher policy against today’s territorial revisionists in the Kremlin, German policymakers often do the opposite, citing their country’s fraught wartime past with the Soviet Union as reason to seek rapprochement with Russia — no matter how wantonly aggressive it behaves. Case in point: Gabriel called upon the EU to “initiate the first steps towards removing sanctions” on Russia pending a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, even though such a concession would fall far short of what’s mandated by the Minsk accords.

This selective reading of history has real-world consequences. A recent Pew poll of publics in NATO countries found Germans were the least likely to support defending fellow allies against Russian attack, as mandated by Article 5 of the alliance’s charter (a key component of the “liberal world order” whose alleged destruction at Trump’s hands German elites constantly bemoan).

(...)

When NATO undertook exercises in Eastern Europe in summer 2016 to reassure members made anxious by Russia’s ongoing war in Ukraine, then German Foreign Minister (and current President) Frank-Walter Steinmeier echoed Kremlin propaganda by labeling the maneuvers “saber-rattling and warmongering.”

In its insouciance toward its security commitments, Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump, who frequently undermined NATO’s mutual defense clause before explicitly endorsing it in his speech at Warsaw. And Germany’s strategic confusion and lack of moral clarity transcends the current occupant of the White House; by 28 percent to 25 percent Germans prefer Russia as a partner to the United States, the country that liberated them from themselves and provided the conditions for their post-war economic boom and political stability.

Germany’s paltry defense budget (only 1.2 percent of GDP, far short of the 2 percent recommended of all NATO members) and vastly under-equipped military further exemplify its national narrow-mindedness. As Europe’s most populous country and economic powerhouse, Germany should be contributing far more to the Continent’s collective defense. When Germany’s NATO allies intervened to protect innocent Libyans from the depredations of the Gaddafi regime, not only did Berlin sit out, it abstained on a vote at the United Nations Security Council authorizing the mission.

Responding to criticism of their meager defense expenditure, Germans often self-effacingly claim that the last thing the Continent needs or wants is a Germany that’s once again militarily powerful. Some offering this excuse sincerely believe that Germany, because of its past, should never again be trusted with the use of military force; but many just wish to unburden themselves of international obligations and cynically cite eternal historical trauma to justify that desire.

(...)

Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with pursuing national interest — all countries do. What’s exceptional about Germany is the degree to which it claims not to.


https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-puts-germany-first-defense-politics-foreign-policy/

I bet some Germans feel annoyed by this constant criticism of their country coming from foreigners. Well, it's time to get used to it, as "with great power comes great responsibility". Americans can probably give you some tips on how to ignore the noise.

I don't share some of the views presented above, but I think this article should make it easier to understand why the 'Eastern flank' still prefers to follow the American lead.

Jesus, this paper... Thanks for reminding me why I so passionately hate neocon propaganda.


Heeey it was an opinion piece

I know
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9188 Posts
December 27 2017 16:59 GMT
#20433
He considers both countries selfish and accused one of pretending it isn't.
You're now breathing manually
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 27 2017 17:07 GMT
#20434
On December 28 2017 01:59 Sent. wrote:
He considers both countries selfish and accused one of pretending it isn't.

The reasons why Germany is unwilling to act openly and "shamelessly" like the regional power it is are historically obvious.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 27 2017 17:12 GMT
#20435
I'm all for staunchly opposing Russia but that piece is a little bit much even for me, the author's basically equating 'moral clarity' with whatever it is the US wants Europe to do, and that ship has sailed. And 'Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump"

Are you kidding me?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-27 17:34:32
December 27 2017 17:34 GMT
#20436
Germany’s intelligence services have identified a Takfiri terrorist network made up of 40 women amid the rising growth of female extremists with hundreds of Facebook followers who are filling the gap left by their imprisoned husbands.

Burkhard Freier, the head of the North Rhine-Westphalian Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper that the local female extremist network of “40 sisters” followed a strict Salafist doctrine —informing their advice on everything from raising children to interpreting the religious rules of Islam and stirring up hatred against so-called “non-believers.”

According to RT, the network was active on the internet, determined to proselytize their Salafist ideology (an ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam) aggressively to other would-be members.

“The women are now ideology promoters,” Freier said.

Additionally, the women indoctrinate their own children from an early age. “This makes Salafism a family affair,” and the result, Freier said, could be something “much more difficult to dissolve, namely Salafist pockets within society.”

What’s worse is that these female extremist leaders, some of whom have several hundred Facebook followers, now have a new role in society, feeling accepted and included. “The men have realized that women can network much better and are therefore more capable of expanding the scene and keeping it active,” Freier said.

Salafists follow an ultra-conservative, fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which is sponsored by Saudi Arabia, and Salafist organizations perceive Western-style democracy as incompatible with obeying God. Their beliefs provide the spiritual basis for groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9188 Posts
December 27 2017 17:49 GMT
#20437
On December 28 2017 02:12 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm all for staunchly opposing Russia but that piece is a little bit much even for me, the author's basically equating 'moral clarity' with whatever it is the US wants Europe to do, and that ship has sailed. And 'Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump"

Are you kidding me?


It's not a binary issue. Obviously Germany is more reliable in areas like trade or environmental policy, but in security I consider the US more reliable regardless of whether it's Trump, Obama, Clinton or Bush sitting in the White House. CDU's Germany is fine, but one day Gazprom SPD may take over and I don't consider them nearly as reliable.

To be clear, by saying I consider the US more reliable in one area I don't mean Germany is unreliable.
You're now breathing manually
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21652 Posts
December 27 2017 17:50 GMT
#20438
On December 28 2017 02:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Germany’s intelligence services have identified a Takfiri terrorist network made up of 40 women amid the rising growth of female extremists with hundreds of Facebook followers who are filling the gap left by their imprisoned husbands.

Burkhard Freier, the head of the North Rhine-Westphalian Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper that the local female extremist network of “40 sisters” followed a strict Salafist doctrine —informing their advice on everything from raising children to interpreting the religious rules of Islam and stirring up hatred against so-called “non-believers.”

According to RT, the network was active on the internet, determined to proselytize their Salafist ideology (an ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam) aggressively to other would-be members.

“The women are now ideology promoters,” Freier said.

Additionally, the women indoctrinate their own children from an early age. “This makes Salafism a family affair,” and the result, Freier said, could be something “much more difficult to dissolve, namely Salafist pockets within society.”

What’s worse is that these female extremist leaders, some of whom have several hundred Facebook followers, now have a new role in society, feeling accepted and included. “The men have realized that women can network much better and are therefore more capable of expanding the scene and keeping it active,” Freier said.

Salafists follow an ultra-conservative, fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which is sponsored by Saudi Arabia, and Salafist organizations perceive Western-style democracy as incompatible with obeying God. Their beliefs provide the spiritual basis for groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS.


Source

The Iran front page?
The RT mentioned is that Russia Today?
And nothing of this on the rankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung mentioned.

Any credible network have anything on this?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 27 2017 17:53 GMT
#20439
On December 28 2017 02:49 Sent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2017 02:12 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm all for staunchly opposing Russia but that piece is a little bit much even for me, the author's basically equating 'moral clarity' with whatever it is the US wants Europe to do, and that ship has sailed. And 'Germany is hardly more reliable than Trump"

Are you kidding me?


It's not a binary issue. Obviously Germany is more reliable in areas like trade or environmental policy, but in security I consider the US more reliable regardless of whether it's Trump, Obama, Clinton or Bush sitting in the White House. CDU's Germany is fine, but one day Gazprom SPD may take over and I don't consider them nearly as reliable.

To be clear, by saying I consider the US more reliable in one area I don't mean Germany is unreliable.


I think people shouldn't confuse 'clarity' with reliability. The US is strict and brash in their course because they don't have to fear anything from Russia as they're not connected at all to the country and not sharing a continent with it. Countries in the middle of Europe, including Germany, have to juggle the interests of many different countries, and this necessarily leads to contradictions, that however doesn't mean that a country isn't reliable.

Germany is unreliable in this context in the same sense that Bush considered Schröder unreliable when he decided to not to to war in Iraq. We in Europe unfortunately have the bad luck to have to live with the consequences of this stuff, the US in this sense is naive and has not made the same experiences.
jodljodl
Profile Joined October 2016
157 Posts
December 27 2017 18:26 GMT
#20440
First, regarding this article,
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-puts-germany-first-defense-politics-foreign-policy/.
I wanted to ask if you guys know if politico.eu is a trustworthy source of information.
Ive only read the first few sections when i came across the claim made by the author that the president of germany in 2010, Horst Köhler, was forced to resign. Which is a plain lie. He was not force to resign. In fact, his resignation was rather suprising, and chancellor Merkel even stated she tried to convince him to stay on longer. He justified his act by the "harsh" criticism he received for his statement regarding the deployment of troops. But, in no sense of the word, was he forced to.

Secondly,

On December 27 2017 20:01 Big J wrote:
Since 1945 Germany and "its allies" did not need German military or any other military for self-defense at all.


i really don't get your point. For more than 4 years now, russia is leading a war of aggresion against the ukraine. The war may not be a "conventional" one but its a (unprovoked) war nonetheless. Just because people tend not to call it a war - for what ever reason - doesnt make it anything different. Theres russian weapons, russian soldiers and annexation of ukrainian territory. Putin admitted to that more than once.
So, to argue theres no need for any kind of military self-defense capabilities for germany and its partners is worldly innocent, imo. One reason for maintaining military forces is deterrent. So, even though forces never were deployed does not mean they had no effect.
Kim Doh Woo
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