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lugggy
450 Posts
On October 07 2006 18:15 WhatisProtoss wrote: [removed quote within quote] Actually, MANY MANY South Koreans want unification. LOL, let the new "Vietnam" begin then. 30,000 U.S. troops trying to keep the "Democratic south" intact while being attacked by the "Viet Cong" equivalent, while bombing the North to no avail, 'cept this time, "it's newkular." Vietname II: Judgement Day. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On October 07 2006 18:15 WhatisProtoss wrote: Actually, MANY MANY South Koreans want unification. Yes. But many also do not recognize the rammifications of an immediate unification. It'd be chaos. There'd be a gigantic exodus from the North to the South, and the Southern economy cannot handle 40 million uneducated and homeless immigrants. The South Korean economy would stop growing and hit an extreme depression. The only way a unification is going to really fully work out is if it is a slow, gradual process that slowly integrates the North into the South. It'd slow South Korea's growth for a while (think West and East Germany except far more extreme...), but in the eyes of most Korean people, it'd be well worth it. The Koreas shouldn't be seperated - they should be one people. Hell, it was the superpowers powerplay that seperated us in the first place. I had a good article bookmarked to show my other friends this perspective, but it's on my computer at home and I can't seem to find it... But the Korean people have been victums of the various world powers having their way with us. And the Korean people have thus been involved in a devestating war and divided for 50 years. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On October 07 2006 18:22 Klogon wrote: [removed quote within quote] Yes. But many also do not recognize the rammifications of an immediate unification. It'd be chaos. There'd be a gigantic exodus from the North to the South, and the Southern economy cannot handle 40 million uneducated and homeless immigrants. The South Korean economy would stop growing and hit an extreme depression. The only way a unification is going to really fully work out is if it is a slow, gradual process that slowly integrates the North into the South. It'd slow South Korea's growth for a while (think West and East Germany except far more extreme...), but in the eyes of most Korean people, it'd be well worth it. The Koreas shouldn't be seperated - they should be one people. Hell, it was the superpowers powerplay that seperated us in the first place. I had a good article bookmarked to show my other friends this perspective, but it's on my computer at home and I can't seem to find it... But the Korean people have been victums of the various world powers having their way with us. And the Korean people have thus been involved in a devestating war and divided for 50 years. Yep, just like I said on the 2nd page: South Korea's economy cannot accomodate for North Koreans. It needs to be done gradually, however that's supposed to be done...... but whatever. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
Seems like an impossible riddle, to be honest. | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On October 07 2006 18:49 Klogon wrote: So, just curious now that we've dicussed and addressed the problem, if you were some of the world leaders right now, what would you do in this situation? What course of action do you feel is the right one? What's the solution? Seems like an impossible riddle, to be honest. Yeah, true. I can only argue my little devil's advocate stuff.... But just like dealing with a bully, threats do not last long and are not good for having healthy relations. A solution needs to be more passive and be favorable for all sides. If North Korea was given a guarantee for international safety in return for stripping it's nuclear program... then that would be favorable. And other nations should push for better relationships between the North and South, ending the half-decade long standoff and possibly towards reunification (with the help of wealthier nations). | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
Here's my predictions on how things would/should turn out in North Korea, mostly in relation to the US, because Bush is still in power and the Axis of Evil thing is still going on. 1) The most the US can do right now is wait and see what happens. Most likely, nothing is going to happen. North Korea continues to make empty threats, or as Mao Zedong would have put it, "act the paper tiger" and do "saber rattling." US would just keep lobbying and protesting Kim's policies. The US either does not have the resources or does not wish to go into a two-front war, even with small nations. China will not allow it, and the US is not prepared for it. US would most wisely focus on bringing Iraq to a suitable conclusion before trying anything stupid with North Korea. 2) North Korea is not Iraq or Vietnam. Don't get it wrong. Even if the US does invade North Korea and try to force about a reunification/solution, and providing that China does not do anything against it, what would most likely happen is that North Korea would be assimilated into South Korea and the two countries would merge. The problem with most people's trains of thought is that the US is currently at least 0-2 in terms of invading then trying to convert countries into democracy (major failure in Vietnam, and currently Iraq). Both Vietnam and Iraq are special cases, and America had messed with the wrong countires at the wrong time. North Korea can and will be successfully merged with South Korea. Vietnam was under the shadow of two major Communist nations in a time where Communism was a major player in world ideology, and because Vietnam was basically surrounded with Communist countries, of course the US would lose. Furthermore, south Vietnam was extremely corrupt and its citizens were in discontent. The country was basically Ho Chi Minh's even before the US set foot on its soil. Iraq is similar to Vietnam in that Iraq's religion Islam is one that naturally inspires some kind of fanaticism, and is surrounded by other, likeminded Islamic states in an area which has been in turmoil for quite some time. Because the US invaded such a country whose people cannot and have not seen what Democracy has achieved, obviously the natives are going to resist. On the other hand, North Korea should be compared with something like the reunification of East and West Germany, or the westernization of Japan. North Korea, like East German, is practically surrounded by powerful democratic and prosperous countries like South Korea and Japan, and can potentially be influenced by the US also. With one of the most technologically advanced cities only miles from the North Korean border, it is not hard for North Koreans to compare it to their own impoverished homes. Furthermore, North Korea's history of Communism is not that long, and there is little doubt that its citizens wouldn't really mind having their "Dear Leader" removed from power. | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
P.S. - that was directed at no one in specific. | ||
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In)Spire
United States1323 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
<3 you rule | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On October 07 2006 18:57 Newbistic wrote: Furthermore, North Korea's history of Communism is not that long, and there is little doubt that its citizens wouldn't really mind having their "Dear Leader" removed from power. I think you have some great points, and I mostly agree that North Korea merging with the South isn't a "if" issue but more of a "how" issue. But you'd be surprised how brain washed the North Koreans are. Many of them love their Dear Leader in their ignorance. It's sad, really. My dad traveled into North Korea last summer and he said anti-USA sentiments were very strong and that the North Koreas had surprisingly a lot of pride in their country. This nationalism may just be a side effect of them asserting their racial identity as Koreans, but the fact that it is prevalent is absurd, yet understandable given the circumstances of their upbringings. They also don't grasp the difference in wealth, power, comfort, etc that the South has versus what they have. My dad said his heart absolutely broke for his brothers there that he cried for the first time in years the first night he was there. Even in the fanciest hotel in the area, they wouldn't give him more than a few squares of toilet paper due to the sanctions. And he was afraid to show his digital camera to the man assigned to follow him because he just felt too bad for the man who was slowly becoming a friend. Empathy. Even though the man's views were clearly ignorant and brainwashed, it wasn't his fault. Yeah. | ||
KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On October 07 2006 17:50 WhatisProtoss wrote: You see North Korea as the "bad guys" because they're hostile to the world?? You need to see this from ALL points of view. The North Koreans have not invaded a country. They have not committed mass homicide. However, on the other hand... the United States have invaded countries and established their political propaganda forcefully on other nations. The United States has committed mass crimes in murder with the mere invasion of Iraq for non-existant nuclear weapons. And once nukes were NOT found, they switched over to saying that Iraq NEEDED to be freed from Sadaam because he was too dangerous in power. The US went in there to get rid of NUKES! Not take Sadaam out of power. NOT to establish democracy. The US has been around for only a little over 200 years. What makes them so right? The Middle East have been a tribal system for several THOUSAND years. Yet, the young US comes in and decides to say: "We know that you've been around for at least 10 times the period of time we've been around.... but just because we're stronger, we've decided that you're wrong and we're right. Listen to our point of view unless you want to die." North Korea hasn't invaded anyone? Korean war denier? That kinda renders your point redundant doesn't it. Ah! Length of time a political system has been around for is more important than it's effectiveness. I know you enjoy playing devils advocate but come on.... You compare modern democracy to a tribal system and say that the older one is better simply because it's been around for ten times longer. Therefore the best would be illiterate tribes hunting animals from caves, probably without fire. Oh, and you kind of didn't bother refuting any of my attacks on you earlier so I'm gonna take that as tacit agreement that you were wrong. | ||
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
On October 07 2006 19:02 GunSlinger wrote: don't knock communism just becuase you are ignorant and brainwashed. P.S. - that was directed at no one in specific. Better to knock communism because it causes more deaths and general misery than any other ideology as can be backed up by facts, should someone acuse me of ignorance. Better to knock it because it preaches that the individual is both insignificant and disposable in the face of the greater tides of history, a tool to be used at the whim of the party. It's a totalitarian doctrine and cannot be anything else. | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
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[angst]chraej
1445 Posts
i heard that year north koreans took all gold medals. | ||
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KwarK
United States44448 Posts
I don't think history dictates what has to come. Communism does. Thats what Marx was on about. That class struggle detirmines the future, that man moves from being dictated by who owns the land, to who owns the factories until a workers society. And you're wrong. True communism is marxism. Thats why post Soviet communists say there was never a true Marxist state and that Marxism was corrupted by Lenin and Stalin. True communism and Marxism are exactly the same thing, not two very different things. You're entirely wrong. Oh, and when you call someone a fool, try and be right. Makes you look less stupid.  | ||
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Dametri
United States726 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
On October 07 2006 17:56 DaN[SES] wrote: I hope you live in Seoul. On October 07 2006 17:58 WhatisProtoss wrote: Yes, I'm from Seoul. Why, you think they're gonna blow us up? Don't even try to make a retarded half-assed comment like that. He meant he hoped you lived in Seoul so if they bomb Seoul you would be dead. Not are you from Seoul. I think I dont know much about this because i dont watch the news and what i know so far is what i read on tl. But interesting. The thing is its hard to argue what nk is thinking cause we're not North Korea and its hard also cause people are so biased on one side. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
On October 07 2006 19:46 Kwark wrote: Gunslinger, you are wrong on every count. I don't think history dictates what has to come. Communism does. Thats what Marx was on about. That class struggle detirmines the future, that man moves from being dictated by who owns the land, to who owns the factories until a workers society. And you're wrong. True communism is marxism. Thats why post Soviet communists say there was never a true Marxist state and that Marxism was corrupted by Lenin and Stalin. True communism and Marxism are exactly the same thing, not two very different things. You're entirely wrong. Oh, and when you call someone a fool, try and be right. Makes you look less stupid. dont argue with a communist about communism. becuase in all actuality you are the one looking like the fool. did you take some fancy history course and now you think you know all about it? you are just spewing facts, not telling me why its bad. but i dont have the time to argue with someone who obviously never looks at it from different perspectives. | ||
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