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On October 08 2006 14:52 mahnini wrote:
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I was trying to show you that Kim is doing exactly what you said a politician should not do. Is he not working only to fulfill his selfish goals? Is he putting himself in every other countries' shoes? No, because every other country sees that he is inhumane and selfish. Look at what he is doing to his own people in order to keep his power, what is he willing to do to his enemies?
Nearly every post you make is very biased and outright anti-US. I understand that the US in it's current position asking N. Korea to stop making nukes is contradictory, but so is every other country that has nukes. Do you honestly think that the US with nukes will be more dangerous than N. Korea? The leaders of N. Korea have already shown they care for nothing except their own power.
Ok, I will accept your point of view only if you can give me reasons. How have the leaders of North Korea shown that they care for nothing except their own power?
And once you can do that, I will give you the opposite point of view and tell you how the leaders of America have cared for their own power. I can give more reasons for America than North Korea.
I'm not biased for North Korea, I'm just giving their point of view since nobody does that on this site since they mostly American and jump to conclusions, thinking that nukes in the hands of North Korea will be deadly for everyone else without thinking for all possible cases. Instead of actually answering the question, you're just giving MORE questions. I suggested that it was better for all politicians to think outside of the box in order to solve their problems better... and you take it to another level: "Kim is doing exactly what you said a politician should not do. Is he not working only to fulfill his selfish goals? Is he putting himself in every other countries' shoes?"
Sure, but isn't that what Bush is doing on a greater level? He shuns the advice of the United Nations council, he stubbornly goes on with his international terror plans despite false intelligence. There is no need to bash a political leader who is on the losing side of the battle. I never said Kim was right. I never said Kim was a good leader for the North Koreans. There is not much you can do when the largest and strongest country in the world opposes you as if you were the Nazi's themselves.
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NK can do anything they want to do.
However, if they want war, so be it.
GO GO FIGHTING~
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war will not happen in NK, it will be very complicated since china and US are not allies
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/061008/world/international_korea_north_dc_3
... word on the planned nuclear test, which the North said it had been goaded into by what it considers a U.S. threat of nuclear war and economic sanctions.
In Beijing, a source with close ties to Pyongyang said North Korea might bring the test date forward because of anger at a contentious remark by China's U.N. ambassador.
The ambassador had suggested that China, the nearest the isolated North has to an ally, would not protect Pyongyang if it went ahead with the test.
The source said North Korean generals had bristled at the notion of needing China's protection and had urged Kim Jong-il to bring the test date forward.
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i thought this was interesting, even though a nuclear test may be very bad for the world situation, it is still very interesting. according to this news, it may happen very soon.
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On October 08 2006 15:34 WhatisProtoss wrote:
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Ok, I will accept your point of view only if you can give me reasons. How have the leaders of North Korea shown that they care for nothing except their own power?
And once you can do that, I will give you the opposite point of view and tell you how the leaders of America have cared for their own power. I can give more reasons for America than North Korea.
I'm not biased for North Korea, I'm just giving their point of view since nobody does that on this site since they mostly American and jump to conclusions, thinking that nukes in the hands of North Korea will be deadly for everyone else without thinking for all possible cases. Instead of actually answering the question, you're just giving MORE questions. I suggested that it was better for all politicians to think outside of the box in order to solve their problems better... and you take it to another level: "Kim is doing exactly what you said a politician should not do. Is he not working only to fulfill his selfish goals? Is he putting himself in every other countries' shoes?"
Sure, but isn't that what Bush is doing on a greater level? He shuns the advice of the United Nations council, he stubbornly goes on with his international terror plans despite false intelligence. There is no need to bash a political leader who is on the losing side of the battle. I never said Kim was right. I never said Kim was a good leader for the North Koreans. There is not much you can do when the largest and strongest country in the world opposes you as if you were the Nazi's themselves.
I'm sure the video posted on TL showing the starving citizens of N. Korea due to the government is more than enough to prove that the leaders of N. Korea care only about maintaining their own power, which is why they want to develop nukes in the first place.
It's a fair probablility that N. Korea will do nothing with the nukes if other countries appease them, however, this is a double-edged sword. If N. Korea is able to develop long-range nukes they will be able to make demands, if you appease them, you are helping to maintain their tyrannical rule, and if you don't you are risking some type of retaliation. Of course, this sounds ridiculous but I for one will not be able to sleep easy knowing Kim has the capability to do so.
I agree, there is no arguing that what Bush did was, for lack of a better word, bad. What you are over-looking, however, is Bush has limitations. He is limited by our governmental system and frankly by American citizens, therefore, he HAS to care what other people think. The reason Bush was able to go to war with Iraq is because really, no one cared, not even other countries. If they really did care they would've done more than just warn Bush not to do it without consequence.
If Bush announced that he was going to fire a nuke there would be overwhelming public outcry, to say the least. If Kim wanted to launch a nuke, there will essentially be nothing to stop him. Do you really think the world will take Bush's shit for much longer? No, Bush knows this, he knows he is on thin ice. On the other hand, you have Kim. He doesn't need to care what his people think, he doesn't need to care what the world thinks, and to be honest, he doesn't have much to lose. This by far makes him more dangerous.
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On October 08 2006 16:14 mahnini wrote:
If Bush announced that he was going to fire a nuke there would be overwhelming public outcry, to say the least. If Kim wanted to launch a nuke, there will essentially be nothing to stop him. Do you really think the world will take Bush's shit for much longer? No, Bush knows this, he knows he is on thin ice. On the other hand, you have Kim. He doesn't need to care what his people think, he doesn't need to care what the world thinks, and to be honest, he doesn't have much to lose. This by far makes him more dangerous.
Now you're just being irrational. Kim most likely would NOT fire nuclear missiles anywhere. They are a POLITICAL weapon, not an actual war piece. If all Kim wanted to do was fire missiles and provoke the US, then he would have done it already. Why has there not been a nuclear strike against somebody so far? This has been going on for years! THINK! Who cares if Kim doesn't have restrictions by the people such as Bush. Kim has the weight of his country on his shoulders and he KNOWS that a bad move will spell destruction for him and his country.
He DOES have to care what his people think. He DOES have to care what the world thinks. You don't understand.
The only way for him to keep larger nations at bay is with his nuclear threats. Empty threats, yet still effective to some extent. Kim has a LOT to lose. His life, his family, his NATION. Just because you're a dictator/tyrant doesn't mean you don't fucking care about your own nation. That doesn't give you the right to do whatever the hell you want to against other nations, especially the United States.
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On October 08 2006 16:24 WhatisProtoss wrote:
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Now you're just being irrational. Kim most likely would NOT fire nuclear missiles anywhere. They are a POLITICAL weapon, not an actual war piece. If all Kim wanted to do was fire missiles and provoke the US, then he would have done it already. Why has there not been a nuclear strike against somebody so far? This has been going on for years! THINK! Who cares if Kim doesn't have restrictions by the people such as Bush. Kim has the weight of his country on his shoulders and he KNOWS that a bad move will spell destruction for him and his country.
He DOES have to care what his people think. He DOES have to care what the world thinks. You don't understand.
The only way for him to keep larger nations at bay is with his nuclear threats. Empty threats, yet still effective to some extent. Kim has a LOT to lose. His life, his family, his NATION. Just because you're a dictator/tyrant doesn't mean you don't fucking care about your own nation. That doesn't give you the right to do whatever the hell you want to against other nations, especially the United States.
Are you being serious? Just a political weapon? Do you think if it were JUST a political weapon anyone would care? If a country ignores Kim's threats do you think he will sit there looking at his nuke saying to himself "Darn it!"? No, because then he would lose ALL political power, he WILL have to retaliate someway if he wants to be taken seriously.
He absolutely does NOT have to care what his people think, he has already shown that he does NOT care what the world thinks. Honestly, I don't know anyone who thinks Kim gives a rat's ass about the sake of his people, only himself.
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United States44448 Posts
On October 08 2006 16:24 WhatisProtoss wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
Now you're just being irrational. Kim most likely would NOT fire nuclear missiles anywhere. They are a POLITICAL weapon, not an actual war piece. If all Kim wanted to do was fire missiles and provoke the US, then he would have done it already. Why has there not been a nuclear strike against somebody so far? This has been going on for years! THINK! Who cares if Kim doesn't have restrictions by the people such as Bush. Kim has the weight of his country on his shoulders and he KNOWS that a bad move will spell destruction for him and his country.
He DOES have to care what his people think. He DOES have to care what the world thinks. You don't understand.
The only way for him to keep larger nations at bay is with his nuclear threats. Empty threats, yet still effective to some extent. Kim has a LOT to lose. His life, his family, his NATION. Just because you're a dictator/tyrant doesn't mean you don't fucking care about your own nation. That doesn't give you the right to do whatever the hell you want to against other nations, especially the United States.
I'm not as reassured as I could be by your assessment that he probably won't fire the nuclear weapons.
You suggest that he is somehow attempting to keep larger countries at bay. That the larger countries are trying to conquer North Korea and he is just a desperate man trying to protect his people. What the US wants of North Korea is not to conquer it. They want N Korea to stop being so fucktarded, have a nice capatalist system like the rest of the world so they can start trading and making money. Instead of their current system where they are a threat to regional stability and thus the economy. The US does not want to conquer the world. It wants to trade with the world. And don't cite Iraq as countering this. The US does not wish Iraq to be a colonial state run by them. They want Iraq to sell them cheap oil. They want more international trade to make them money. And that works best under a democratic capitalist system, such as the one you see in South Korea.
"He DOES have to care what his people think. He DOES have to care what the world thinks. You don't understand."
I'm afraid I didn't quite understand here. You gave two of your opinions, said we don't understand, but then didn't back them up with any evidence at all. Unless you are going to justify your contradictions of what other people say they really have no weight at all. I believe he doesn't care what the world or his people think. If his people think anything they're not meant to in a system with state run media and mass propaganda the secret police get them. And the rest of the world is condemning him, and he seems not to care. So either I don't understand (for reasons you have yet to disclose) or you're wrong.
And stop saying nuclear weapons are the only way. If he were to announce a liberalisation program tomorrow then the world would rejoice, trade barrier would go down, sweat shops making cheap US goods would open up in North Korea and gradual economic growth would start. Nuclear weapons are the only way for a cruel ruthless dictator to remain in power. But they are not the only way for North Korea to survive. Please stop confusing the two.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I didnt read this thread, but I am guessing there were a few "boxer will save us" type jokes yes?
If so, allow me to call them retarded.
You guys are retarded. Thanks.
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Did you hear the breaking news? They set one off... Yay... One of the worst possible scenarios in US foreign policy in the last 20 years has just initiated itself.
Nice job stalling diplomacy...
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japan is going to be pissed
it will be interesting to see how this pans out
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great time for boxer to join the army
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i bet the newspapers in North Korea are saying
"EXTRA EXTRA - South Korea Gets Totally Pissed About Fshing Expedition"
seriously, i hate how politicians act like woman.
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Thanks for the link. It seems by testing this bomb N. Korea just lost it's only ally, I guess that's a plus. 
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There are such things as "pride and patrism" I know it's alot of bullshit but it's evident.
Imagine the communists(the all so hated commies by you guys) werent' in China, what would it be now? China would still be a weakling in the world, looked down at, militarily weak and has no voice what so ever. Chinese will still be inferior, unable to raise their heads in an international scene, discriminated against... Like mexicans that ppl so fond of poking fun at, say...
It is because of the "O so evil" communists could China rose to world power. We now got nukes too, even though we're not aggressive by any means, just because we have nukes makes China a power to reckon with, that confort of knowing China too has the power to blow the fuck out of the earth gives a sense of esteem in many chinese men, because now we are not weaklings anymore, because we can do serious damage. Sounds like crazy logic but that's how it works.
It is a pride problem. Now NK is looked down up at, they are weaklings, inferior. Imagine if NK doesn't have nukes, who would listen to them? Nobody. Now, imagine NK with nukes, the NK will have more "voice" in the world, and that's what's the nuke was shooting for - self-esteem.
By no means I am suggesting the NK ppl would enjoy this, however, the government will love more esteem in the world.
Would ppl dare to seal the boarder between U.S. and Mexico if now suddenly Mexicans have lots of nukes? I think not. Same goes to NK.
That kid we used to ignore now has a knife in his hands, we better listen to what he's got to say or he might stab you. Same idea.
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Symphatizing and realising why something is done/may be necessary in their point of view is not the same thing.
I can understand your argument about N.korea, and believe me, I've learned a lot from looking on things from the other sides view. But If I were to take a side, I'm all against N.korea, despite looking it from their point of view. I just think they're doing more damage than benefitting in this situation.
I don't feel comfortable that neither country has nukes, but if I had to chose one to have, I'd chose the united states. I feel that my english might not be on the required level to express myself in these matters, and I seems that you've misunderstood me.. but I don't know. Anyways, looks like N.Korea tested one of their missiles this morning, It'll be interesting how this will evolve.
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You are a retard HappyManRun...
China isnt scary because it has Nukes, it is scary because its the biggest country in the world, and is in a current economical catapult, the only thing why the USA would defeat china in a massive war is because an ocean separetes them and obviously moving hundres of millions of soldiers across the pacific ocean is very expensive, however no country in this world could stand a frontal attack from China when they could easily outnumber any army 10 by 1.
Also nuclear weapons give no power whatsoever, simply because no 3rd world country will fire a nuclear weapon because it would mean suicide, the country would be anihilated by a 1st world alliance.
Plus North Korea cant do shit because it would lift chinas protection veil that is the only thing that is keeping it alive and the states cant do shit to NK because it would threaten its relation with the raising giant China.
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The problem is nobody likes this kid, even his own friend disapproves of him owning a knife. This is also a kid that has the mental capacity to stab the shit out of his neighbors. There's a difference from giving a kid like Canada a knife and giving a kid like N. Korea a knife.
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OT:
WhatIsProtoss - You briefly mentioned the US base in SK. And how the south koreans don't like it there at all. Are both parties unfriendly toward each other near the base? I thought south koreans were nice allies (hence a base on your soil). Reason i ask is because my wife is in the Navy and we were thinking of moving to that base in 3 months. I think we will pick somewhere else if there is a high degree tension between the base and koreans.
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EPT
