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The point, nunez, is that Western governments and most of Western/Al Jazeera media is behaving AS IF Russia was behind the Ukrainian crisis. Whether they're actually behind it is, at this point, irrelevant.
The international press is not a court of law. You are not innocent until you're proven guilty. Rather, it's the other way around. Russia is guilty because lots of different influential people on very different political sites say they are.
I provided these links not to demonstrate whether Russia IS involved in Ukraine. I provided these links to argue that many, many important and influential people in the West and in the Arab world THINK that Russia is involved in Ukraine.
Furthermore, the Western governments are behaving as if Russia is behind the unrest. The sanctions are an excellent example.
You can choose to argue whether they're right or wrong. I actually don't care. What I care about is my argument, which is that this "guilt by proclamation" is happening.
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just add one more level of indirection and we agree!
kerry is a lying dog you know.
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On May 06 2014 12:27 marigoldran wrote:
Dude, I quoted from both Al Jazeera AND Fox news. They BOTH agree that Russia is behind the Ukrainian mess.
You quoted Al Jazeera and Fox News quoting politicians' statements. You have posted NOTHING that comes from journalists/observers reporting on what's going on.
Also, Fox News is a terrible news source, anyways. lol. I remember when they were running the "terrorist babies" report, and a guy from the FBI/CIA they interviewed told them they were full of shit. The fact you think Fox News is good says enough about you XD
On May 06 2014 12:26 Conut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 12:21 marigoldran wrote:
Yawn all you want. You asked for news articles. I have provided them. From lots of different sources and directions.
You just got owned.
Good night. i think that actually was someone getting owned. i saw it all man, i was there man.
Welcome to the thread. You must be new here. You will see how people from all sides or no side have basically refuted everything that marigold has stated. I don't know about anyone owning anyone, but if there's anyone that could claim that title of owning people, it would probably be me, Mc, m4ini, or Ghan. Marigold is on a level worse than the nationalistic Russian guys in the thread.
On May 06 2014 12:38 nunez wrote:
just add one more level of indirection and we agree!
kerry is a lying dog you know.
I ask him for proof from journalists/observers on the scene.
Instead, he quotes a crazy old rabbi and propaganda from political leaders who are contradicted on a daily basis by the journalists/observers on the ground who report that the insurgents bitch day and night about how they get ZERO help from Russia.
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In international media, perceptions of truth matter more than the truth itself. In fact, I would argue there is no platonic "total truth" in any event that happens. Everything is sort of in shades of grey.
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how many shades of gray approximately?
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You're kind of missing my point. It doesn't matter if they're lying or not. The very fact they're posting regularly that "Russia is behind the violence" means that many people will believe them and assume "Russia is behind the violence." And if enough people believe that, then it becomes the "truth."
You can sit back and try to be neutral. But most people won't be like that. Even if they don't listen much about this matter, the very fact that politicians are sitting on camera on national news implying that Russia is behind the violence MEANS that people will implicitly accept that Russia is behind the violence. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's how international politics works.
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On May 06 2014 12:40 marigoldran wrote:
In international media, perceptions of truth matter more than the truth itself. In fact, I would argue there is no platonic "total truth" in any event that happens. Everything is sort of in shades of grey.
Weren't you supposed to go to sleep? XD I think the entire world is black for you. So far, all you've argued is that political propaganda is 100% honest. By your logic, everyone in Ukraine is Nazis because Putin said so.
Unlike you, anyone in this thread with any amount of rationality has been following the reporting of journalists on the ground, not garbage statements from politicians. Many journalists and observers have seen things inside and out, and yet have nothing to report of Russian military forces or Russian supplying arms/money to them. Even in his post-release interview, Simon Ostrovsky has said nothing of the sort. The OSCE-linked observers (who Russia secured their release LOL) have reported absolutely nothing about your conspiracy theories.
Only you and a couple politicians pushing political propaganda they don't believe themselves for obvious political reasons practically claim such a thing. Then again, according to you, everyone in Kiev are Nazis. lol
EDIT:
HAHAHA! So you admit that they are lying XD !!! Wow, "you got owned" as you would say  That's good you admit it too. You were practically claiming that we should trust Putin that everyone in Kiev is Nazis XD
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On May 06 2014 12:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 12:40 marigoldran wrote:
In international media, perceptions of truth matter more than the truth itself. In fact, I would argue there is no platonic "total truth" in any event that happens. Everything is sort of in shades of grey. Weren't you supposed to go to sleep? XD I think the entire world is black for you. So far, all you've argued is that political propaganda is 100% honest. By your logic, everyone in Ukraine is Nazis because Putin said so. Unlike you, anyone in this thread with any amount of rationality has been following the reporting of journalists on the ground, not garbage statements from politicians. Many journalists and observers have seen things inside and out, and yet have nothing to report of Russian military forces or Russian supplying arms/money to them. Even in his post-release interview, Simon Ostrovsky has said nothing of the sort. The OSCE-linked observers (who Russia secured their release LOL) have reported absolutely nothing about your conspiracy theories. Only you and a couple politicians pushing political propaganda they don't believe themselves for obvious political reasons practically claim such a thing. Then again, according to you, everyone in Kiev are Nazis. lol
My point is that it doesn't matter. When US Secretary of State John Kerry goes on air and says to Russia "stop fomenting the violence in Ukraine," most people who heard Kerry will implicitly believe that Russia is behind the violence in Ukraine.
If he's saying garbage, fine. I'm not arguing about the truthiness of his statements. My point is if he says it enough times in different ways on different news sites, people will believe him.
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On May 06 2014 12:46 marigoldran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 12:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 06 2014 12:40 marigoldran wrote:
In international media, perceptions of truth matter more than the truth itself. In fact, I would argue there is no platonic "total truth" in any event that happens. Everything is sort of in shades of grey. Weren't you supposed to go to sleep? XD I think the entire world is black for you. So far, all you've argued is that political propaganda is 100% honest. By your logic, everyone in Ukraine is Nazis because Putin said so. Unlike you, anyone in this thread with any amount of rationality has been following the reporting of journalists on the ground, not garbage statements from politicians. Many journalists and observers have seen things inside and out, and yet have nothing to report of Russian military forces or Russian supplying arms/money to them. Even in his post-release interview, Simon Ostrovsky has said nothing of the sort. The OSCE-linked observers (who Russia secured their release LOL) have reported absolutely nothing about your conspiracy theories. Only you and a couple politicians pushing political propaganda they don't believe themselves for obvious political reasons practically claim such a thing. Then again, according to you, everyone in Kiev are Nazis. lol My point is that it doesn't matter. When Kerry goes on air and says to Russia "stop fomenting the violence in Ukraine," most people will implicitly believe that Russia is behind the violence in Ukraine.
Ah, so now you go from "OMFG YOU'RE STUPID I AM RIGHT I HAVE PROOF" to "Now it doesn't matter if it's true or not."
Jesus, you're flip-flopping more than Kerry in the 2004 elections.
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@judi
you're wishy-washy, and unable or unwilling to connect the dots, nobody likes you.
truthiness!
this is definately tl satire, and great satire as well.
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All true, except possibly the "nobody likes you" part. I mean even Hammurabi must have someone who likes him, right?
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On May 06 2014 12:47 nunez wrote:
@judi
you're wishy-washy, and unable or unwilling to connect the dots, nobody likes you.
Damn, there must be a huge conspiracy where all my family and friends and colleagues just pretend to like me.
LocalPredictor & Paleman, please come back. You at least make more sense than this guy 
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you only think that beacuse you're unable and unwilling to connect the dots. my condolances.
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On May 06 2014 12:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 12:46 marigoldran wrote:On May 06 2014 12:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 06 2014 12:40 marigoldran wrote:
In international media, perceptions of truth matter more than the truth itself. In fact, I would argue there is no platonic "total truth" in any event that happens. Everything is sort of in shades of grey. Weren't you supposed to go to sleep? XD I think the entire world is black for you. So far, all you've argued is that political propaganda is 100% honest. By your logic, everyone in Ukraine is Nazis because Putin said so. Unlike you, anyone in this thread with any amount of rationality has been following the reporting of journalists on the ground, not garbage statements from politicians. Many journalists and observers have seen things inside and out, and yet have nothing to report of Russian military forces or Russian supplying arms/money to them. Even in his post-release interview, Simon Ostrovsky has said nothing of the sort. The OSCE-linked observers (who Russia secured their release LOL) have reported absolutely nothing about your conspiracy theories. Only you and a couple politicians pushing political propaganda they don't believe themselves for obvious political reasons practically claim such a thing. Then again, according to you, everyone in Kiev are Nazis. lol My point is that it doesn't matter. When Kerry goes on air and says to Russia "stop fomenting the violence in Ukraine," most people will implicitly believe that Russia is behind the violence in Ukraine. Ah, so now you go from "OMFG YOU'RE STUPID I AM RIGHT I HAVE PROOF" to "Now it doesn't matter if it's true or not." Jesus, you're flip-flopping more than Kerry in the 2004 elections.
I never said I had direct proof. My argument has been that Russia is guilty due to proof by association. Because Russia invaded Crimea, many people assume Russia is behind the violence in East Ukraine.
EDIT: Instead of attacking straw men, it might be beneficial to actually read what I wrote. I try to be very careful in what I write.
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On May 06 2014 12:49 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2014 12:47 nunez wrote:
@judi
you're wishy-washy, and unable or unwilling to connect the dots, nobody likes you.
Damn, there must be a huge conspiracy where all my family and friends and colleagues just pretend to like me. LocalPredictor & Paleman, please come back. You at least make more sense than this guy
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's true. Given your behavior, it's really hard to see how anyone can genuinely like you. I'm trying, but I have to admit I'm not having much success right now.
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Oh yeah, one other point:
In international politics, "garbage" statements by important politicians matter more (on average) than on-the-ground journalism. I'm sorry if that offends you, but... it's true.
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On May 06 2014 12:57 marigoldran wrote:
Oh yeah, one other point:
In international politics, "garbage" statements by important politicians matter more (on average) than on-the-ground journalism. I'm sorry if that offends you, but... it's true.
HAHAHA!! Yes, so according to you, we should also believe Putin's statement that Nazis are running Kiev is true as well. I mean, he's an important politician too XD.
[sarcasm] Yeah, who cares about the OSCE observers and the journalist in Ukraine who are observing the situation first hand and giving us actual evidence of what's going on? Fuck those guys. Putin is the truth. [/sarcasm]
Thank you. Your logic is absolutely unmatched.
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It seems like the pro russians in this thread are stepping up their trolling.
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On May 06 2014 13:02 hunts wrote:
It seems like the pro russians in this thread are stepping up their trolling.
Are you honestly calling me pro-Russian? That's about as inaccurate a statement as you can make. LOL
I have been against the "pro-Russians" more than most here. Just saying. I see you haven't been following the thread. Unless of course you're calling Mc, Ghan, m4ini, and others pro-Russians as well. Then again, it's customary for people to sometimes say stupid things before thinking, so I can't say I blame you.
However, I am also against pure stupidity, no matter what the position is. My apologies for not being a partisan that disregards evidence and actual events. I'm sure you understand (or maybe not).
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Once again, you're being somewhat dense. I never said that Putin is telling the truth. What Putin's actually doing is to get Russians (and hopefully others) to believe that Kiev is run by Nazis. Putin doesn't care whether he's telling the truth. He cares more about convincing others that he's telling the truth.
John Kerry and other Western politicians are doing the opposite. They also don't care too much about what the actual truth is. What they're trying to do is to convince their audience that Russia is behind the unrest. EDIT: In other words, they're playing the same game that Putin is, except they're doing it better (outside of Russia).
My argument is that in this game of public perception, the West has mostly won it. The people who believe Putin's version of the truth are Russians/Slavs. Everyone else, even Al Jazeera, thinks Putin is behind the unrest.
What is the total truth? I don't know. I have conjectures, which I have mentioned in my previous posts, but those are my personal opinions. I personally think I am right, for the reasons given in previous posts, but in the end these opinions are not as important as the political game that Putin and Kerry are playing...
EDIT: In the game of public perception, Kerry's winning outside of Russia/certain Slavic countries. That's my primary point.
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EPT
