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Metaethics

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frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-08 16:38:45
July 27 2013 17:31 GMT
#1
Metaethics is the branch of philosophy dealing with the most general questions about the nature of normative discourse and properties and our relationship to them. Though it sounds arcane, the topic comes up frequently on TL, where debates constantly arise about whether or not certain moral judgments are “merely opinions” or “subjective” or “culture bound”. (Don't believe me? See this thread.).

This thread is intended to give a primer on the most influential theories in contemporary analytic metaethics while also providing a place to discuss and debate disagreements and to voice opinions. It will also offer a framework for dividing up positions that can be used in many other debates, such as debates about whether artistic value is objective.

MORAL REALISM


There are many different ways of defining moral realism, but definitions will typically have something along the lines of the following three theses at their core:

(1) Ethical discourse is cognitive (or, fact-stating; or, truth-evaluable). That is, ethical assertions make claims about the world and are capable of being either true or false.[1]

(2) Some ethical statements are true.

(3) We know, or are capable of knowing, some ethical truths.


Moral realism further divides into naturalistic and non-naturalistic variants.[2]

According to naturalistic moral realism, ethical facts simply are (or reduce to) a type of natural fact, not fundamentally different from facts about the properties of planets and animals.[3] Utilitarianism can be viewed as an example of this, since utilitarians identify ethical facts with naturalistic facts about what creates the most pleasure minus pain. You don't have to be a utilitarian to be a naturalist, however. Important proponents include Peter Railton, Richard Boyd, and Nick Sturgeon.

The most obvious kind of non-naturalistic moral realism is a divine command theory, wherein ethical facts are simply facts about what God wills.[4] However, the most prominent defenders of non-naturalistic MR are atheists such as Derek Parfit, Thomas Scanlon, and Tom Nagel. Their view doesn't commit them to any supernatural objects, just to the claim that reasons do not reduce to natural facts. For instance, they might say that it is wrong to torture babies for fun, but that this fact does not reduce to any natural facts.[5]

Dialectic:

+ Show Spoiler +
The most straightforward argument for each form of realism is that they preserve the appearances of moral discourses. More often than not, people seem to make moral utterances as though they endorsed (1)-(3), so these theses represent a starting point for discussion about morality.

Naturalistic realism can claim the further advantage that this benefit comes for no ontological cost. Their moral facts are nothing over and above the natural facts we already accept, so, unlike belief in a god, believing in them costs nothing in terms of Ockham's razor. Non-naturalists will typically counter that the natural facts are not enough to preserve the common understanding of morality, so if you want to do so you have to accept their view and it's additional costs.

The main argument's against realism are the arguments for the opposing views that I will outline below.[6]
.

EXPRESSIVISM


Expressivism is the contemporary version of non-cognitivism, the non-realist view you get when you deny thesis (1). That is, it claims that ethical statements are not truth-evaluable or fact stating.

The most simple version of this, emotivism, states that ethical statements are used to simply express emotions. So, 'Murder is wrong' would come out meaning the same thing as 'Boo murder!', which is not truth-evaluable. This view is associated with logical positivists such as A.J. Ayer and is widely regarded as refuted.

Expressivism brings in more complicated psychological states being expressed than simple emotions. Candidates for that psychological state include complex motivational states or commitments to complicated sets of plans. The most prominent recent expressivists have been Allen Gibbard and Simon Blackburn.

It's important to keep this view separate from the view that moral statements describe certain psychological states. On that view, 'Murder is wrong' might mean, 'I hate murder'. But notice that 'I hate murder' still has a truth value, which expressivists deny. That's why they say that your hatred is expressed, not described, by your moral utterances.

Dialectic:

+ Show Spoiler +
Pros

Traditionally, one of the most important arguments for non-cognitivism stems from G.E. Moore's open question argument, according to which it is impossible to define moral predicates using naturalistic properties. However, this argument is somewhat outdated since most varieties of realism do not attempt to give definitions anymore.

The other main argument for expressivism has been the supposedly essential connection between ethical attitudes/assertions and some form of endorsement or motivation. Expressivists will often claim that it is impossible to imagine someone thinking that stealing is wrong without also disapproving of stealing or being motivated in some part not to steal or to reduce the number of thefts (the details of the connection will vary with the specific account offered). It is easy to see why such a connection would exist if ethical attitudes just are states of endorsement or motivation, and ethical statements are just expressions of such states.

But such a connection between beliefs and motivation/endorsement would be hard to make sense of for a naturalistic moral realist, since it is hard to see why merely believing some fact could have motivational or endorsing effects independent of a persons contingent desires. Naturalists thus typically dispute the connection, whereas non-naturalists typically dispute that such action or endorsement guiding belief states are impossible.

Cons

One of the most important arguments against non-cognitivism in general has been the Frege-Geach problem. This is easiest to understand using emotivism, according to which 'Murder is wrong' just means 'Boo murder!'. The problem with this view is that it has a hard time making sense of a compositional semantics for moral terms. 'Murder is wrong' doesn't simply appear in straightforward assertions, but also in more complicated embedded contexts such as: 'Johnny believes murder is wrong' , 'If murder is wrong, Sally wouldn't do it', and 'What if murder is wrong?'. None of these sentences make sense if 'Murder is wrong' has no meaning beyond its expression of disapproval for murder, since that disapproval is in no way built into the more complicated sentences.

This objection is widely regarded as having refuted the most simple forms of non-cognitivism, and one of the main tasks of more recent work in the area has been trying to find ways around it. It is still a matter of debate whether any such proposal has succeeded.

Another argument against expressivism attempts to refute the claimed essential connection between endorsement/motivation and ethical beliefs. Many naturalistic realists claim that amoralists are conceivable. Amoralists are perfectly competent users of moral language and can answer most everyday questions about morality correctly, but they remain completely indifferent to moral considerations. They will happily agree with you that setting cats on fire is wrong, but ignore that factor when deciding whether they will set a cat on fire today.


ERROR THEORY


Error theory agrees with realism on thesis (1); they take moral statements and beliefs to be truth-evaluable and not mere expressions of feelings. They differ by denying thesis (2), claiming instead that all ethical claims are false.[7]

The common strand to error theorists is that they think that moral assertions are all committed to some proposition that is false. A good analogy is what atheists think about claims about God, such as 'God loves dogs'. They think such claims are systematically false because they require the God's existence to be true.

What's the false proposition that all ethical claims are committed to? Different theories give different answers, but a popular answer stemming from J.L. Mackie is that all ethical claims are committed to the existence of categorical imperatives.[8] A categorical imperative is something you have a reason to do regardless of any of your contingent desires or goals.[9]

So such an error theorists agree with non-naturalistic realists about what ethical claims require of the world. They just disagree about what is present in the world. Contrastingly, naturalistic realists and error theorists typically agree that there are no categorical imperatives, but they disagree about whether or not moral claims require them.

Dialectic:

+ Show Spoiler +
Pros

Mackie gave two arguments for the claim that there are no categorical imperatives. The argument from “queerness” simply states that such things would be very metaphysically odd and hence are unlikely to exist unless significant evidence can be mounted for them. How could some properties be inherently reason giving, independent of how people value such properties? The argument from disagreement states that if there were such properties then we would expect there to be more agreement about them.
He focuses much less on the claim that ethical statements actually require categorical imperatives, apparently finding it obvious.

Cons

Non-naturalistic realists will want to downplay the “queerness” of categorical imperatives and the presence of disagreement. On the latter front, they may attempt to point to more general moral principles that end up giving different results in different contexts, explaining some seeming disagreement. They can also point to how widespread divergence in empirical beliefs affects what we think is right. For instance, maybe two groups agree that if God wanted the murder of non-Israelites then that would be a good thing, but disagree about whether God wants it.

Naturalistic realists will dispute the claim that ethical statements require categorical imperatives. The amoralists can once again be considered an argument against such a requirement, since an amoralist would plausibly not have reason to be ethical.


WHAT ABOUT RELATIVISM?


Relativism is a very popular view among philosophically inclined non-philosophers. However, it hasn't received nearly as much support in (recent analytic) philosophy. Short answer is that if you think you are a relativist you are probably better described as an error theorist, so you may want to put that in the poll.

Long answer:

+ Show Spoiler +
On its face, relativism sounds contradictory. If something is wrong just in case a society disapproves of it and not wrong if a society doesn't disapprove of it, then the presence of disagreeing societies would seem to force us to accept 'X is wrong and X is not wrong', a contradiction.

Gilbert Harman's way around this was to introduce hidden indexicals into moral terms. An indexical is a term whose meaning varies with the context of utterance. 'I' is an indexical, since 'I am frogrubdown' has a different meaning when I say it than when you say it. Harman's claim is that there are indexicals in moral terms that pick out the speakers culture. So S's utterance of 'X is good' would mean that S's culture approves of X.

This view can be either hermeneutic or revolutionary. On the hermeneutic variant, relativism is a claim about language as we currently speak it. The revolutionary variant asks us to change our use.

The problem with the former is that it seems wildly implausible. Whether or not realism is true, people generally speak as though the moral claims meant more than just 'my culture things this'. If that were what they thought they were saying, then they would offer wholly different sorts of evidence (such as opinion polls) in moral debates than they actually do.

Of course, people aren't always right, but it's easier to be right about meanings than most facts. Linguistic intentions largely determine linguistic meanings, and you need a strong argument if you want to claim that people are systematically misunderstanding their own languages.[10]

Harman accepts this and advances a revolutionary relativism. But revolutionary relativism is basically just error theory. It's the view that we should replace present moral language because that language is horribly misguided in its attempt to describe non-existent facts. Error theory agrees with the second part and is simply silent on what we should do about the problem with moral language.

So relativism just takes error theory and adds the additional claim that a relativistic language would be a good replacement for our current one. This further claim can be disputed and has been by the likes of Paul Boghossian.


WHAT DO YOU THINK?


Poll: What's your metaethical view?

Moral Realism (Naturalist) (38)
 
34%

Error Theory (30)
 
27%

Moral Realism (Non-Naturalist) (19)
 
17%

Expressivism (15)
 
14%

Other (9)
 
8%

111 total votes

Your vote: What's your metaethical view?

(Vote): Moral Realism (Naturalist)
(Vote): Moral Realism (Non-Naturalist)
(Vote): Expressivism
(Vote): Error Theory
(Vote): Other



According to the largest survey of contemporary philosophers, 66% are cognitivists (i.e., anti-expressivists) and 56% are realists.

The above is a small part of just one set of debates in metaethics. Feel free to bring in whatever relevant discussions you want.

Footnotes

+ Show Spoiler +

[1] I didn't state it explicitly, but you should interpret this as ruling out the assertions being speaker relative or having some hidden indexical. More on this in the relativism section.

[2] There really aren't any very good definitions of 'naturalism' and 'natural' out there. For now, let it suffice that no naturalistic theory can countenance stereotypically supernatural objects such as gods and ghosts. They are happy with quarks, guitars, solar systems and societies, though.

[3] There's an important distinction here between reductions and analyses. Most naturalists don't think you can analyze moral terms using only natural object terms. For instance, they're unlikely to find the simple definitions found in utilitarianism plausible. Their reduction is metaphysical, not conceptual.

[4] This runs into the Euthyphro problem.

[5] Non-naturalistic realism is also sometimes characterized as saying that moral facts are intrinsically motivating, like desires. So, if you believe that lying is wrong you will necessarily have some motivation not to do it. Many people find such a connection plausible when it comes to desires, but at least since Hume it's generally been felt that beliefs cannot have these motivating features. Naturalists do not think that they have them.

[6] I'm only discussing the anti-realist views that come from rejecting thesis (1) or (2). Rejecting only thesis (3) gets you moral skepticism, which is a less prevalent view.

[7] Astute readers will probably object, “How can both 'Murder is wrong' and 'It is not the case that murder is wrong' be false? If one is false, the other must be true?” One potential way around this objection is to limit the claims of error theory to logically atomic sentences, letting the logically complex sentences inherit their truth values in the standard way. So, 'Murder is wrong” would be false and 'It is not the case that murder is wrong' would be true.

[8] Other supposedly false supposed commitments of ethical claims could include the presence of libertarian or agent-causal free will or the existence of God. The former claim would drag you into a compatibilism debate and the latter claim would drag you into a Euthyphro debate (and an atheism debate). I wouldn't recommend it.

[9] This is extremely similar to the claim that moral beliefs are inherently motivating. But there are complicated debates in the vicinity about whether or not reasons are always (or should always be) motivating that I don't want to get into. You might want to pretend for now that having a reason to do something and having some motivation to do something are the same thing.

[10] The problems are even worse than I've indicated here. Some of them are arguably lessened by using a recent, alternative tool for dealing context sensitivity developed by John Macfarlene. Interestingly enough, this is known as relativism. The differences involve some complex formal semantics that I won't get into here, but if people have questions I can discuss it in the thread.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 17:41:23
July 27 2013 17:38 GMT
#2
Now this is a thread.
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
July 27 2013 17:40 GMT
#3
Finally a good thread about morals as a philosopher, I have to be happy!

I'm a moral realist. I used to be a relativist, but the problems that arise from it are way too many. I hope this topic will clear the misconceptions people have about moral relativism, because in the philosophical debate it's considered pretty much a joke (much as verificationism, which was pretty much destroyed in the 20s/30s)
Dating thread on TL LUL
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 18:06:07
July 27 2013 18:05 GMT
#4
I wish I understood 50% of what was written in the OP.

I'll try to educate myself and hopefully vote in the poll at some point.
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 18:28:40
July 27 2013 18:13 GMT
#5
I'm a relativist. I don't really understand all the error theory thing.

That it cause problem philosophically doesn't mean much to me, as I come from a sociological background. From a sociological point of view, the theorical talk doesn't mean much.
What we can do on the other side, is see that 1) all mora statement are historic, which means that they are not "natural" ; 2) most individuals have value, moral, taste and judgement that are heavily linked (if not entirely determined by) with their social origin (different social class have different value to be quick).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AdamBanks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada996 Posts
July 27 2013 18:19 GMT
#6
It varies from day to day i think, recent interest:

"Lekan argues that morality is a fallible but rational practice and that it has traditionally been misconceived as based on theory or principles. Instead, he argues, theory and rules arise as tools to make practice more intelligent."

http://www.powells.com/biblio/9780826514219
I wrote a song once.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
July 27 2013 18:21 GMT
#7
Haha, I remember making a thread about philosophy about a year ago and you promising a post on metaethics. Guess the time has come :D Excellent read.

Anyway, I don't believe there are some set of morals that are universally good. They are dependent on where, when and how you live. While this doesn't rule out natural realism, it does strain it: it is not simply defined by nature, but also by the society that emerges whether something is moral or not.

Nevertheless, I believe morals are something more than just an expression of our emotions (and other complex mumbo jumbo): for any society there is almost certainly a "right" way of doing things, a "wrong" way of doing things and a whole load of grey area where there is no real right or wrong but we like to think so anyway.

I ended up with error theory, but I don't know that I completely agree with that either. I'd very much describe myself as a pragmatist, but moral pragmatism does not exclude any of the other theories of where they come from, it just thinks it's not very important: the important aspect of morals is in how they are used in a society, rather than what, exactly, they are. It thus simply ignores the question of what morals are as a non-question, because they are entirely defined by how they are used.

Because society progresses, its norms also progress: we have learned that slavery is wrong in the same way that we have learned that the theory of phlogiston is wrong. But there is no categorical imperative, and we can never know that something is objectively right: we can just use the best set of morals that we know of, just as we use scientific theories despite knowing they might not be completely waterproof (like the standard model of physics: we know it's incomplete, but it works wonderfully). This allows us to make judgements of others: just as we can judge medieval's scientific knowledge as inadequate and wrong, we can judge their morals as inadequate or even barbaric. And we can do so "objectively".

I voted for Error Theory, though, because it is probably the nearest thing to pragmatism you have in your poll.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
July 27 2013 18:22 GMT
#8
FRD, what is your personal take on Simon Blackburn's work in ethics? I find quasi-realism to my liking on some days, and yet others it seems too wishy-washy. Ultimately, my biggest problem with ethics philosophy is that I cannot personally make my mind up
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
July 27 2013 18:22 GMT
#9
Oh god. The discussion in this thread is either going to be really top notch or it's going to make me want to kill the happy sheep.
User was warned for too many mimes.
frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 18:34:07
July 27 2013 18:29 GMT
#10
On July 28 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm a relativist. I don't really understand all the error theory thing.

That it cause problem philosophically doesn't mean much to me, as I come from a sociological background. From a sociological point of view, the theorical talk doesn't mean much.
What we can do on the other side, is see that 1) most ethical behavior or positions are historic, which means that they are not natural ; 2) most individuals have value, moral, taste and judgement that are heavily linked (if not entirely determined by) with their social origin (different social class have different value to be quick).



Well, apparently theoretical talk means something to you when that theory happens to be relativism :p

More seriously, every metaethical theory will have to come to terms with facts about the historical and cross-cultural differences in ethical beliefs that you discuss in (1) and (2). They will just disagree on what these facts say about metaethics. (As a sidenote, I think you're misreading my use of 'natural'. Think of 'natural' as non-supernatural. Cultures are every bit as natural as rocks on my use).

To have a more productive dialogue, I'd think I'd have to know how your relativist views play out philosophically. For instance, what do you think is the meaning and truth conditions of a sentence such 'Murder is wrong'? (Obviously you don't have to be completely precise here.)
frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 18:38:54
July 27 2013 18:33 GMT
#11
On July 28 2013 03:22 farvacola wrote:
FRD, what is your personal take on Simon Blackburn's work in ethics? I find quasi-realism to my liking on some days, and yet others it seems too wishy-washy. Ultimately, my biggest problem with ethics philosophy is that I cannot personally make my mind up


I'm not an expressivist (which has very close affinities with quasi-realism, if not being identical), but I prefer Gibbard's presentation of it to Blackburn's. I can never discern exactly what difference Blackburn is trying to make between his view and full fledged realism, and often doubt there is one. Basically, I think he loses to Dworkin in this debate.

Though it is kind of a general problem with expressivists that the more they try to fight the Frege-Geach problem and account for the ways in which moral discourse can be rational, the harder it is to see why they aren't just realists.

edit:
On July 28 2013 03:21 Acrofales wrote:
Haha, I remember making a thread about philosophy about a year ago and you promising a post on metaethics. Guess the time has come :D Excellent read.

Anyway, I don't believe there are some set of morals that are universally good. They are dependent on where, when and how you live. While this doesn't rule out natural realism, it does strain it: it is not simply defined by nature, but also by the society that emerges whether something is moral or not.

Nevertheless, I believe morals are something more than just an expression of our emotions (and other complex mumbo jumbo): for any society there is almost certainly a "right" way of doing things, a "wrong" way of doing things and a whole load of grey area where there is no real right or wrong but we like to think so anyway.

I ended up with error theory, but I don't know that I completely agree with that either. I'd very much describe myself as a pragmatist, but moral pragmatism does not exclude any of the other theories of where they come from, it just thinks it's not very important: the important aspect of morals is in how they are used in a society, rather than what, exactly, they are. It thus simply ignores the question of what morals are as a non-question, because they are entirely defined by how they are used.

Because society progresses, its norms also progress: we have learned that slavery is wrong in the same way that we have learned that the theory of phlogiston is wrong. But there is no categorical imperative, and we can never know that something is objectively right: we can just use the best set of morals that we know of, just as we use scientific theories despite knowing they might not be completely waterproof (like the standard model of physics: we know it's incomplete, but it works wonderfully). This allows us to make judgements of others: just as we can judge medieval's scientific knowledge as inadequate and wrong, we can judge their morals as inadequate or even barbaric. And we can do so "objectively".

I voted for Error Theory, though, because it is probably the nearest thing to pragmatism you have in your poll.


If I had to classify your view using the above rubric, I'd put you down as a moral skeptic (someone who denies thesis (3) of moral realism). This fits well with our discussion from a year and a half ago.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
July 27 2013 18:40 GMT
#12
On July 28 2013 03:29 frogrubdown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm a relativist. I don't really understand all the error theory thing.

That it cause problem philosophically doesn't mean much to me, as I come from a sociological background. From a sociological point of view, the theorical talk doesn't mean much.
What we can do on the other side, is see that 1) most ethical behavior or positions are historic, which means that they are not natural ; 2) most individuals have value, moral, taste and judgement that are heavily linked (if not entirely determined by) with their social origin (different social class have different value to be quick).



Well, apparently theoretical talk means something to you when that theory happens to be relativism :p

More seriously, every metaethical theory will have to come to terms with facts about the historical and cross-cultural differences in ethical beliefs that you discuss in (1) and (2). They will just disagree on what these facts say about metaethics. (As a sidenote, I think you're misreading my use of 'natural'. Think of 'natural' as non-supernatural. Cultures are every bit as natural as rocks on my use).

To have a more productive dialogue, I'd think I'd have to know how your relativist views play out philosophically. For instance, what do you think is the meaning and truth conditions of a sentence such 'Murder is wrong'? (Obviously you don't have to be completely precise here.

Because, from my point of view, relativism was historically a way to fight the ethnocentrism of the observant for anthropologues, defended by Bronislaw Manilowski. It's not entirelly a theorical talk, as it is a practice as much as a concept.

Also, when I read natural, I instantly oppose it to cultural so I might have misunderstood indeed.

As for your question "Murder is wrong", again from a sociological point of view, every assertions are always linked to a context, historical and sociological : "Murder is wrong in today's society", "Murder is not wrong in war", "It is not wrong to murder a slave when you are a noble in the medieval age in France", etc.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
July 27 2013 18:41 GMT
#13
On July 28 2013 03:33 frogrubdown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2013 03:22 farvacola wrote:
FRD, what is your personal take on Simon Blackburn's work in ethics? I find quasi-realism to my liking on some days, and yet others it seems too wishy-washy. Ultimately, my biggest problem with ethics philosophy is that I cannot personally make my mind up


I'm not an expressivist (which has very close affinities with quasi-realism, if not being identical), but I prefer Gibbard's presentation of it to Blackburn's. I can never discern exactly what difference Blackburn is trying to make between his view and full fledged realism, and often doubt there is one. Basically, I think he loses to Dworkin in this debate.

Though it is kind of a general problem with expressivists that the more they try to fight the Frege-Geach problem and account for the ways in which moral discourse can be rational, the harder it is to see why they aren't just realists.

Thanks for the link to that Dworkin piece, as he is pretty much my go to political philosopher and I was unaware of his direct work in ethics. I'll continue to follow the thread closely.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32740 Posts
July 27 2013 18:45 GMT
#14
I hope I can pop in here occasionally to discuss, because ethics is my preferred branch of philosophy. First post is a great primer to the topic and is very informative for people new to the topic.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
July 27 2013 18:45 GMT
#15
So, stupid question from someone who hasn't read any analytic philosophy ever, what would an error theorist said if I punched him in the face and started to laugh maniacally ?
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
crazyweasel
Profile Joined March 2011
607 Posts
July 27 2013 18:51 GMT
#16
On July 28 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm a relativist. I don't really understand all the error theory thing.

That it cause problem philosophically doesn't mean much to me, as I come from a sociological background. From a sociological point of view, the theorical talk doesn't mean much.
What we can do on the other side, is see that 1) all mora statement are historic, which means that they are not "natural" ; 2) most individuals have value, moral, taste and judgement that are heavily linked (if not entirely determined by) with their social origin (different social class have different value to be quick).


you,re making the mistake here to think that social only comes from social (durkheim's reductionism). but lots of our behaviors are biologically designed while the way they act varies according to the social environnement.(wich is why it is true that morals are heavily link with their social origins.) I heavily think that morals will still follow a tendency or a direction that is somewhat absolute to humanity.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-27 18:58:52
July 27 2013 18:52 GMT
#17
So I guess Sam Harris would be an example of a naturalistic moral realist? I seem to identify with both of their positions.

But my god this stuff is complex - I was just reading your links and suddenly I felt like I was reading my math paper on analytic functions
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
July 27 2013 18:58 GMT
#18
So if i would agree that ethical statements can be true or false given a certain base of principles , but i also also acknowledge that these principles are basically arbitrary that would put me into the "Error theory" category , right?
frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-28 02:55:45
July 27 2013 19:03 GMT
#19
On July 28 2013 03:40 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2013 03:29 frogrubdown wrote:
On July 28 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm a relativist. I don't really understand all the error theory thing.

That it cause problem philosophically doesn't mean much to me, as I come from a sociological background. From a sociological point of view, the theorical talk doesn't mean much.
What we can do on the other side, is see that 1) most ethical behavior or positions are historic, which means that they are not natural ; 2) most individuals have value, moral, taste and judgement that are heavily linked (if not entirely determined by) with their social origin (different social class have different value to be quick).



Well, apparently theoretical talk means something to you when that theory happens to be relativism :p

More seriously, every metaethical theory will have to come to terms with facts about the historical and cross-cultural differences in ethical beliefs that you discuss in (1) and (2). They will just disagree on what these facts say about metaethics. (As a sidenote, I think you're misreading my use of 'natural'. Think of 'natural' as non-supernatural. Cultures are every bit as natural as rocks on my use).

To have a more productive dialogue, I'd think I'd have to know how your relativist views play out philosophically. For instance, what do you think is the meaning and truth conditions of a sentence such 'Murder is wrong'? (Obviously you don't have to be completely precise here.

Because, from my point of view, relativism was historically a way to fight the ethnocentrism of the observant for anthropologues, defended by Bronislaw Manilowski. It's not entirelly a theorical talk, as it is a practice as much as a concept.


I was hoping to avoid this issue for a little bit in the thread, but I guess I'll discuss it now. Yes, a doctrine given the name "relativism" has frequently been invoked as a weapon against imperialism, especially in social science departments. However, to be blunt, this has never made even the slightest amount of sense.

There is no relativist argument for tolerance.

My thoughts on this aren't original. They've been published by hundred of philosophers before and you can find them advanced in hundreds of intro philosophy classes at assorted universities. The problem is simply that if what culture you're in determines what is right, then there is no ground from which you can criticize the imperialistic practices of your own culture. It doesn't matter if what the other culture is doing is also right for them, because what's right for them has nothing to do with what's right for you according to relativism. Relativism would be the best news ever for would-be imperialists.

I'll quote Bernard Williams:

Let us at this stage of the argument about subjectivism take a brief rest and look round a special view or assemblage of views which has been built on the site of moral disagreements between societies. This is relativism, the anthropologists' heresy, possibly the most absurd view to have been advanced in moral philosophy. In its vulgar and unregenerate form (which I shall consider, since it is both the most distinctive and the most influential form) it consists of three propositions: that 'right' means (can only be coherently understood as meaning) 'right for a given society' ; that 'right for a given society' is to be understood in a functionalist sense ; and that (therefore) it is wrong for people in one society to condemn, interfere with, etc., the values of another society. A view with a long history, it was popular with some liberal colonialists, notably British administrators in places (such as West Africa) in which white men held no land. In that historical role, it may have had, like some other muddled doctrines, a beneficent influence, though modern African nationalism may well deplore its tribalist and conservative implications.

Whatever its results, the view is clearly inconsistent, since it makes a claim in its third proposition, about what is right and wrong in one's dealings with other societies, which uses a nonrelative sense of 'right' not allowed for in the first proposition. The claim that human sacrifice, for instance, was 'right for' the Ashanti comes to be taken as saying that human sacrifice was right among the Ashanti, and this in turn as saying that human sacrifice among the Ashanti was right; i.e., we have no business interfering with it. But this last is certainly not the sort of claim allowed by the theory. The most the theory can allow is the claim that it is right for (i.e., functionally valuable for) our socieity not to interfere with Ashanti society, and, first, this is certainly not all that was meant, and, second, is very dubiously true.


From the chapter "Interlude Relativism", worth reading in full.

People who call themselves relativists because of arguments like this are really absolutists. They believe in an absolute principle of non-interference in other cultures no matter what your culture thinks about interference (and the individual that disagrees with their culture's ethics are out of luck).


Also, when I read natural, I instantly oppose it to cultural so I might have misunderstood indeed.

As for your question "Murder is wrong", again from a sociological point of view, every assertions are always linked to a context, historical and sociological : "Murder is wrong in today's society", "Murder is not wrong in war", "It is not wrong to murder a slave when you are a noble in the medieval age in France", etc.


This doesn't answer my question about meaning and truth conditions as fully as I'd hoped.

farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
July 27 2013 19:03 GMT
#20
On July 28 2013 03:52 radscorpion9 wrote:
So I guess Sam Harris would be an example of a naturalistic moral realist? I seem to identify with both of their positions.

But my god this stuff is complex - I was just reading your links and suddenly I felt like I was reading my math paper on analytic functions

Before you get too comfortable in identifying with Sam Harris' work in ethics, have a look at this link.. At the bottom are more links to a variety of critiques of Harris. Suffice it to say, I don't find his ideas very appealing.

In his new book (the one about lying) Harris says, in effect, you should never, ever, do it — yet his pretense in The Moral Landscape to be revolutionizing moral philosophy seems to me the very height of dishonesty. What he actually does in his book is plain old secular moral reasoning — and not very well — but he claims he’s using science to decide right from wrong. That Harris could be naive enough to think he’s really bridged the famous “is/ought” chasm seems incredible, and so I submit that he’s exaggerating* to sell books. Shame on him.

*A previous version of this post had the word “lying” here, but I was told that my rhetorical flourish might be interpreted as libel. I hope “exaggerating” is sufficiently safe. Now onward to my argument:

I’ll start by saying what the “is/ought” divide is, in case you haven’t heard of this before. It’s an old idea, tracing at least to David Hume, and its gist is that there is no way to reason from facts about the way the world is, to statements about the way the world should be. You can’t derive values from data. I’ll use one example to illustrate and then move on.

Example. It’s a fact that rape occurs in nature — among chimpanzees, for instance; and there are some evolutionary arguments to explain its existence in humans and non-humans alike. But this fact tells us exactly nothing about whether it’s OK to rape people. This is because “natural” doesn’t entail “right” (just as “unnatural” doesn’t necessarily mean wrong) — indeed, the correct answer is that it’s not OK, and this is a judgement we make at the interface of moral philosophy and common sense: it’s not an output of science.

You get the idea. The domain of science is to describe nature, and then to explain its descriptions in terms of deeper patterns or laws. Science cannot tell us how to live. It cannot tell us right and wrong. If a system of thought claims to be doing those things, it cannot be science. If a scientist tells you she has some statements about how you ought to behave, they cannot be scientific statements, and the lab-coat is no longer speaking as a scientist. Questions about “How should we live?” — for better or worse — fall outside the purview of “objective” science. We have to sort them out, messily, by ourselves.

Now: if there were a way to get from “is” to “ought” it would take a work of philosophical genius to lay it out, and Harris’ book is not a work of philosophical genius. I can summarize his argument in a few lines:

1. Morality is “all about” improving the well-being of conscious creatures.

2. Facts about the well-being of conscious creatures are accessible to science.

3. Therefore science can tell us what’s objectively “moral” — that is, it can tell us whether something increases, or decreases, the well-being of conscious creatures.

Here’s the problem. Premise (1) is a philosophical premise. It’s not a fact of science, it’s not a fact of nature, it’s not derivable from science, it’s not derivable from nature: it’s a value judgment. You might think this is a good premise; you might not – and even if you think it’s basically on track, there’s a lot of philosophical work to be done to spell it out. (Exhibit A – how do you define well-being in the first place, “scientifically” or otherwise?)
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