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On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day.
lol. Just lol. The last bit is my favorite.
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Terrorism is disgusting but it's not only the act of mentally ill people. It actually has reasons which extremists use for their "benefits". But reasons are reasons and when a government violates the rights of a huge amount of people all over the world it should be seen as a cause of terrorism and not a measure against it.
Whistle-blowing is actually a step to open discussion about shit that goes wrong in this world.
And discussion is the first step to fix shit that goes wrong in this world.
Fixing shit that goes wrong in this world is the first step to peace.
I say give him this price not only because it's lost it's meaning anyway but because Snowden actually gave us a tool to create peace. It's not his fault that we are to much of power-obsessed, egocentric, disillusioned idiots to recognize what he did for us.
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On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol.
He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict.
We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order.
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On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day.
It seems that you don't understand the purpose of international law nor the reason your country chose to be a determinant factor in establishing it as a system. But if you think international law just doesn't matter, then I have no reason to argue with you.
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On July 19 2013 05:16 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. It seems that you don't understand the purpose of international law nor the reason your country chose to be a determinant factor in establishing it as a system. But if you think international law just doesn't matter, then I have no reason to argue with you.
Here is a question, what do you do to Russia or the US when they break international law?
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On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order.
And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic.
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On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic.
You are fond of taking someones argument and just running to really stupid places with it. Spying is illegal by the UN laws, but a lot of countries do it anyways. Hacking computers is also illegal, but china does it all the time and doesn't give a shit. We yell at them all the time for it, but they do it. France spied on German companies between 200-2010 and there was nothing they could do about it either. The US caught a large number of Russian spies in the US a few years ago and we just traded them for a few things we wanted from Russia and moved on.
And let us not forget Putin stealing a Super Bowl ring from the owner of the Patriots front of everyone. That was pretty funny and he still claims was a gift to this day.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/reliable-source/wp/2013/06/16/vladimir-putin-denies-stealing-superbowl-ring/
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On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic.
I really feel like you don't have a grasp of international politics at all. Also, your meth lab analogy is a non-sequitur. You seem to have no concept of what "covert" means. Covert means that a government knows that it is illegal, and is going to do it anyways because it is in their best interest and in their opinion, the people's best interest. Do you have any idea how long covert spying has been going on? It hasn't been this big for less than 10 years, I can tell you that lol. The fact that you said "lol. just lol." to me in response seems to make me think that your paradigm of the international law needs updating.
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On July 19 2013 05:30 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic. I really feel like you don't have a grasp of international politics at all. Also, your meth lab analogy is a non-sequitur. You seem to have no concept of what "covert" means. Covert means that a government knows that it is illegal, and is going to do it anyways because it is in their best interest and in their opinion, the people's best interest. Do you have any idea how long covert spying has been going on? It hasn't been this big for less than 10 years, I can tell you that lol. The fact that you said "lol. just lol." to me in response seems to make me think that your paradigm of the international law needs updating.
What they're doing now is beyond any amount of "spying" done ever before. And no I'm just saying your argument could be made for anything illegal, it doesn't make it right.
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On July 19 2013 05:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:16 Sbrubbles wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. It seems that you don't understand the purpose of international law nor the reason your country chose to be a determinant factor in establishing it as a system. But if you think international law just doesn't matter, then I have no reason to argue with you. Here is a question, what do you do to Russia or the US when they break international law?
Obviously there is no World Government to enforce international laws, but breaking them makes the country less trustworthy (even if restricted to the theme that was broken). It hampers future negotiations, emboldens retaliatory action and is generally hurtful to international relations.
Me? There's nothing I can do. But my country can use it to justify another action that is within its interests but objetionable to Russia or the US (in your case). And that always carries the risk of making everyone worse off. Specific to the case involving the american systems spying on Brazil (they didn't make as much media as the european ones, obviously), we could see the brazillian government possibly intervening on american internet-related companies on brazillian soil using the US spying as justification in order to guarantee sovereignty. Or Brazil could attempt to take the conflict to the international court in order to get the US to apologise (it's very, very unlikely that brazil would do so and the US probably wouldn't accept as well, but it's still possible).
The situations in which international law is broken is actually less than the situations in which it is followed and it is within the US's (and the world's) interest that it remain so.
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I see a lot of "they spy so we spy" arguments here. This is a simple "eye for eye, blood for blood" doctrine. I have a hard time understanding where such thinking comes from. Please help.
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On July 19 2013 05:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:30 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic. I really feel like you don't have a grasp of international politics at all. Also, your meth lab analogy is a non-sequitur. You seem to have no concept of what "covert" means. Covert means that a government knows that it is illegal, and is going to do it anyways because it is in their best interest and in their opinion, the people's best interest. Do you have any idea how long covert spying has been going on? It hasn't been this big for less than 10 years, I can tell you that lol. The fact that you said "lol. just lol." to me in response seems to make me think that your paradigm of the international law needs updating. What they're doing now is beyond any amount of "spying" done ever before. And no I'm just saying your argument could be made for anything illegal, it doesn't make it right.
Ok, its wrong, evil and illegal and the US are bad, bad people for being so not nice to Germany and others. Now that we have done that, we have this huge trade deal that we would like to offer that will make everyone tons of money. Is anyone so upset that they don't want in?
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At worst case, we can give him one of Nobel Peace Prices we have ourselves, right? After all, if even EU and Obama have it, probably so does one in four people in this chat. /sarcasm over
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/18/white-house-silent-renewal-nsa-court-order
Judge Roger Vinson, until recently a member of the court that reviews the government's surveillance requests, approved the order for "all call data records or telephony metadata" from customers of Verizon Business Services on 25 April. The court has reauthorized the bulk phone records collection, in secret, every 90 days for about seven years.
At least two other major telecoms, AT&T and Sprint, reportedly receive similar orders. The dates of their expiration are unclear.
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On July 19 2013 06:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/18/white-house-silent-renewal-nsa-court-orderJudge Roger Vinson, until recently a member of the court that reviews the government's surveillance requests, approved the order for "all call data records or telephony metadata" from customers of Verizon Business Services on 25 April. The court has reauthorized the bulk phone records collection, in secret, every 90 days for about seven years. At least two other major telecoms, AT&T and Sprint, reportedly receive similar orders. The dates of their expiration are unclear.
You do know people already know this stuff. That is reviewed by a Judge and approved. This system is also overseen by members of congress as well. This is nothing new.
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On July 19 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/18/white-house-silent-renewal-nsa-court-orderJudge Roger Vinson, until recently a member of the court that reviews the government's surveillance requests, approved the order for "all call data records or telephony metadata" from customers of Verizon Business Services on 25 April. The court has reauthorized the bulk phone records collection, in secret, every 90 days for about seven years. At least two other major telecoms, AT&T and Sprint, reportedly receive similar orders. The dates of their expiration are unclear. You do know people already know this stuff. That is reviewed by a Judge and approved. This system is also overseen by members of congress as well. This is nothing new.
The looming expiration of the order, issued by the secretive Fisa court, provides an early test of Barack Obama's claim to welcome debate over "how to strike this balance" between liberty and security. Beyond the question of the phone records collection, the court order authorizing it is a state secret.
Senator Jeff Merkley, a Democrat from Oregon, asked if he thought Obama should let the Verizon order expire, said: "Yes. This type of secret bulk data collection is an outrageous breach of Americans' privacy. If the administration feels this program is vital to our national security, it should declassify the secret court interpretations that justify broad data collection so Congress and the American public can debate it in the light of day."
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On July 19 2013 06:28 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 06:23 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 06:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/18/white-house-silent-renewal-nsa-court-orderJudge Roger Vinson, until recently a member of the court that reviews the government's surveillance requests, approved the order for "all call data records or telephony metadata" from customers of Verizon Business Services on 25 April. The court has reauthorized the bulk phone records collection, in secret, every 90 days for about seven years. At least two other major telecoms, AT&T and Sprint, reportedly receive similar orders. The dates of their expiration are unclear. You do know people already know this stuff. That is reviewed by a Judge and approved. This system is also overseen by members of congress as well. This is nothing new. The looming expiration of the order, issued by the secretive Fisa court, provides an early test of Barack Obama's claim to welcome debate over "how to strike this balance" between liberty and security. Beyond the question of the phone records collection, the court order authorizing it is a state secret. Senator Jeff Merkley, a Democrat from Oregon, asked if he thought Obama should let the Verizon order expire, said: "Yes. This type of secret bulk data collection is an outrageous breach of Americans' privacy. If the administration feels this program is vital to our national security, it should declassify the secret court interpretations that justify broad data collection so Congress and the American public can debate it in the light of day."
You just quoted a single section on the article you just posted. It is one person and they are likely going to add more oversite to the program. Could you be slightly less lazy with your arguments?
What do you want to happen? Do you want there to be no program and for the NSA to get a warrent for each phone number just to look at its call records? Because its not like they aren't looking for something when they do it.
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On July 19 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:30 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic. I really feel like you don't have a grasp of international politics at all. Also, your meth lab analogy is a non-sequitur. You seem to have no concept of what "covert" means. Covert means that a government knows that it is illegal, and is going to do it anyways because it is in their best interest and in their opinion, the people's best interest. Do you have any idea how long covert spying has been going on? It hasn't been this big for less than 10 years, I can tell you that lol. The fact that you said "lol. just lol." to me in response seems to make me think that your paradigm of the international law needs updating. What they're doing now is beyond any amount of "spying" done ever before. And no I'm just saying your argument could be made for anything illegal, it doesn't make it right. Ok, its wrong, evil and illegal and the US are bad, bad people for being so not nice to Germany and others. Now that we have done that, we have this huge trade deal that we would like to offer that will make everyone tons of money. Is anyone so upset that they don't want in?
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Take your pick. Everything you have said on this topic is one of these, as far as I can remember.
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On July 19 2013 06:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:39 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:30 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 05:20 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 19 2013 05:06 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 19 2013 05:05 docvoc wrote:On July 19 2013 04:50 Sbrubbles wrote:Beyond the moral implication of spying on foreigners in foreign countries (where the US has no jurisdiction), the US are also most likely violating international law both in the form of signed treaties and customary international law. Americans should remember that US law is (almost) entirely irrelevant when the issue is the US State interfering with the rights of people outside its jurisdiction. I posted this link a bit back, it's short and doesn't require any background in law http://arengel.edublogs.org/2013/07/02/international-law-american-law-and-the-legality-of-the-us-spying-program/Edit: You have to understand that if my government starts invading my privacy I, as a citizen, can attempt to do something about it. If a foreign government does it, I have no direct means of interfering, especially if my own government doesn't have the resourses to stop it. In a sense, China's got this problem more figured out than every else. First off, you can't do anything about it. What are you as a peson going to do? You'd need a group of people behind you to do anything. The days of one man starting an armed revolt are over, they died a long time ago. Also, international laws are the ones that are violated most often; whenever I see people say "my international laws are violated" I just laugh. Few countries actually follow international laws, and even fewer attempt to hide the fact that they violate these laws time and time again. It doesn't matter if the spying program is legal, it's never supposed to be seen in the light of day. lol. Just lol. He is 100% correct. Other countries flaw out ignores international law. China hacks US companies all the time and is part of the UN. We complain about it too, and they just ignore us and we continue trading with them. Russia just ignores sections of law of laws they don't like, like stuff about the Siberian sea or who should get weapons in a conflict. We don't all get along as well as everyone thinks. International law is more of a suggestion, rather than an order. And what about the, who cares if it isn't legal purely because it wasn't supposed to be known about ? Meth Labs are all legal now, excellent logic. I really feel like you don't have a grasp of international politics at all. Also, your meth lab analogy is a non-sequitur. You seem to have no concept of what "covert" means. Covert means that a government knows that it is illegal, and is going to do it anyways because it is in their best interest and in their opinion, the people's best interest. Do you have any idea how long covert spying has been going on? It hasn't been this big for less than 10 years, I can tell you that lol. The fact that you said "lol. just lol." to me in response seems to make me think that your paradigm of the international law needs updating. What they're doing now is beyond any amount of "spying" done ever before. And no I'm just saying your argument could be made for anything illegal, it doesn't make it right. Ok, its wrong, evil and illegal and the US are bad, bad people for being so not nice to Germany and others. Now that we have done that, we have this huge trade deal that we would like to offer that will make everyone tons of money. Is anyone so upset that they don't want in? One.Two.Three.Four.Take your pick. Everything you have said on this topic is one of these, as far as I can remember.
So what is your solution, Shiori? Beyond just posting wikipedia links about logic arguments?
Should we appoligize to Germany and other countries and then what? Pledge to keep the CIA out of their country and no longer spy on them until we distrust them? When would that happen?
Or lets go for the root of all of this: When is a nation justified in spying? When is it ok for them to do so?
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Russian Federation601 Posts
Hell, Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were allied during WWII and look what happened.....
read history first plz
they got non-agression pact in the beginning of ww2 but they weren't allies thanks to one 3-man-summit
i'm ok with us spying every single country they meet, pretty sure other big8 countries doing this too. But man telling that all this only because they afraid of terrorists. Come OOOOON, that's some Bush jr stuff
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EPT
