|
In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note. Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon. All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting. https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk |
Northern Ireland25333 Posts
On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance.
I mean trans folk are a pretty small proportion of the population. If they criminally offend at a sort of standard rate it’s a small proportion of a small proportion. Then the proportion of that who’re going on to rape folks within prison I can’t imagine is a 1:1
It’s nonsense concern trolling. Perhaps not from Blackjack but more generally. Prison rape is a problem, but only if it involves this subset obviously.
We should give folks the benefit of the doubt when it comes to sexual assault, and it’s too easy to cry rape these days!
Trans people in woman’s sports (which we routinely mock and denigrate) is a problem
|
United States42689 Posts
Call me a radical if you will but I think making people share bedrooms with rapists and locking them in together may be a bad idea. And I don’t much care how the rapist identifies when I make that assertion. We shouldn’t lock vulnerable people in with any rapists.
|
United States10501 Posts
On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance.
People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy?
Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons?
It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion.
|
United States42689 Posts
On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion.
I don't think "people with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape" is a fair statement to make about a women's prison but okay.
|
But don't you see. Because the woman with the once penis once had a penis this person is like the alpha of alpha predators now and should be used as the hallmark example of why trans people can never have any legitimacy ever in any facet of society.
|
On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion.
It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"...
There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it.
|
On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion.
This concern trolling is pretty ridiculous. Youre worried about cis women being raped by a trans women, yet trans women in mens prisons are at the biggest risk of prison rape by far. Why is this not an issue to you?
|
On April 29 2025 17:16 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. This concern trolling is pretty ridiculous. Youre worried about cis women being raped by a trans women, yet trans women in mens prisons are at the biggest risk of prison rape by far. Why is this not an issue to you?
Its not on Asmongold's approved list of talking points.
|
United States10501 Posts
On April 29 2025 16:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"... There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it.
Wrong. More women (and men) think that trans women with penises should go to a men's prison than a women's prison. By a fairly wide margin.
Women and men’s views are largely identical: 57% of men and 61% of women say this type of offender should go to a men’s prison, with only 14-15% saying they should go to a women’s prison.
Personally I try to judge the goodness of something on my own and I don't really care what opinion polls say, but if you're going to cite opinion polls as some type of argument you should at least make sure they agree with your stance.
|
On April 29 2025 09:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 09:02 Razyda wrote:
"This exclusion disproportionately affects trans women of course" - why is that? Conservative hatred is usually directed primarily at trans women, they're always the main target. I don't know the exact psychological reason, I have some ideas but I didn't really look into it. Trans men are more of an afterthought, or not a thought at all. I'll refer you to the dude who went on TV the other day and was completely dumbfounded by the fact that trans men are now supposed to use the women's bathroom, and they look like cis men, so "a predator could just say they're a trans man and go in the women's bathroom looking like a man". Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 09:02 Razyda wrote:
It is not a time saver, it is self imposed echo chamber. Judging article quality merely by the way they describe person you happen to disagree with is somewhat close minded. It didn't take much imposition trust me, I was never like "oh no not an echo chamber", mainly because I noticed that most people who complain about echo chambers online have the exact same opinions, expressed with the exact same words, on like 90% of subjects. You are not freethinkers; I have a much simpler explanation. Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 09:02 Razyda wrote:
Amusingly, only people who want trans people to not exists, are people saying "trans women are woman" (and "trans men are men"). If trans woman are woman then you have only woman, same goes for men. Effectively you end up with just woman and men - no trans people. No, that is (as usual) completely faulty logic. If trans women are men, then when I decide to put on a dress as a cis man, I am indistinguishable from a trans woman, I'm just a man in a dress, like they are. This is the scenario in which they don't exist. What you describe, trans women not existing because "you have only woman", is a very basic category error. It's like saying that if blonde women are women, then blonde women don't exist because then you have only women. There are women, the majority of them are cis, and a small minority of them are trans. That's all, it doesn't deny their existence at all. As usual, I can't steelman your counter without denying basic reality. Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 09:02 Razyda wrote:
Ultimately, debate isnt, as you trying to present about some sort of trans genocide. That is a misunderstanding of what existing means to reactionaries. The society that they want is idealized, in the sense that it's just an idea that they have in their head of what society should be like, or is like. The large majority of them don't want a genocide specifically, they just want trans people to not be seen, heard, or considered by them. Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 09:02 Razyda wrote:
It is whether there is difference between trans woman and woman, or trans men and men. Basic reality is, that there is. There is a difference between trans women and cis women, yeah. That's what the word "trans" is there to show. Do you believe that trans women are unaware that they're trans? That's a pretty insane thing to believe.
"Conservative hatred is usually directed primarily at trans women, they're always the main target. I don't know the exact psychological reason, I have some ideas but I didn't really look into it."
Did you really had to drop "hatred" there? The reason why trans women get much more focus is because trans men have much less ways to abuse the system, also trans men will be generally at disadvantage against men in sports, or physical confrontation hence odds of trans man successfully assaulting man are rather small.
"It didn't take much imposition trust me, I was never like "oh no not an echo chamber", mainly because I noticed that most people who complain about echo chambers online have the exact same opinions, expressed with the exact same words, on like 90% of subjects. You are not freethinkers; I have a much simpler explanation."
Problem is it works both ways and "left" used to be (still is) way more singe minded, while "right" had much more diversity of opinion. This started to change with Israel/Palestine war and got amplified after Trump election, when increasingly one opinion becomes correct. I wouldnt be surprised if right eventually became the very hive mind they accuse left to be.
"No, that is (as usual) completely faulty logic. If trans women are men, then when I decide to put on a dress as a cis man, I am indistinguishable from a trans woman, I'm just a man in a dress, like they are. This is the scenario in which they don't exist. What you describe, trans women not existing because "you have only woman", is a very basic category error. It's like saying that if blonde women are women, then blonde women don't exist because then you have only women. There are women, the majority of them are cis, and a small minority of them are trans. That's all, it doesn't deny their existence at all. As usual, I can't steelman your counter without denying basic reality."
You do realise that you said this is faulty logic and then used the very same logic?
"That is a misunderstanding of what existing means to reactionaries. The society that they want is idealized, in the sense that it's just an idea that they have in their head of what society should be like, or is like. The large majority of them don't want a genocide specifically, they just want trans people to not be seen, heard, or considered by them."
There is no misunderstanding what existing means, word is rather well defined. I dont think I heard anyone saying "trans people should not exists" (that being said, I have no doubt that there are individuals who believe that). All I heard are accusations "x believe trans people should not exists". Regarding society, what do you mean "they"? You dont have an idea how society should be? I am pretty sure everyone has such an idea and also that everyone's ideas are at least slightly different. I also happened to disagree with you on what large majority wants. In my opinion what large majority wants, is system which isnt open to abuse.
"There is a difference between trans women and cis women, yeah. That's what the word "trans" is there to show. Do you believe that trans women are unaware that they're trans? That's a pretty insane thing to believe."
Please name some of those differences? Also your first 2 sentences describe my position on the topic? You do realise that leads to "trans women are women" being false? As in: trans women arent women they are trans women, which btw is perfectly fine thing to be. Regarding your last 2 sentences, I am not sure how you reach such conclusion, but just in case for the record: I believe trans women are aware of being trans.
|
On April 29 2025 18:28 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 16:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"... There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it. Wrong. More women (and men) think that trans women with penises should go to a men's prison than a women's prison. By a fairly wide margin. Show nested quote +Women and men’s views are largely identical: 57% of men and 61% of women say this type of offender should go to a men’s prison, with only 14-15% saying they should go to a women’s prison. Personally I try to judge the goodness of something on my own and I don't really care what opinion polls say, but if you're going to cite opinion polls as some type of argument you should at least make sure they agree with your stance.
Not what I claimed, I said "supportive of trans rights". Especially in the context of the UK, it is very common for trans exclusionists to act as if they are standing up for women, when it is very clear that trans rights are a feminist issue and fighting against trans rights is, well, not that. Because of that rhetorical strategy, the women of Terf Island are now more likely to be transphobic than the women of other places on this planet, but they're still usually either more supportive than men or at an equal level to men depending on the specific question.
You quoted a source that says "Women and men’s views are largely identical" to describe the "fairly wide margin" by which more women support this particular claim, which I find amusing.
Anyway, let's summarize this exercise in steelmanning, shall we? According to those last few exchanges, the "good arguments" that the right has on the topic of trans rights are: "here's a trans woman who raped someone in prison" and "if trans women are women then nobody is trans"? Those are terrible arguments, I would definitely have to deny basic reality in order to consider them. Anything better?
|
On April 29 2025 18:53 Razyda wrote:
Did you really had to drop "hatred" there? The reason why trans women get much more focus is because trans men have much less ways to abuse the system, also trans men will be generally at disadvantage against men in sports, or physical confrontation hence odds of trans man successfully assaulting man are rather small.
No it's not that at all, it's the hatred. Trans women aren't abusing any systems, they just try and live their lives like anyone else until some prick comes in and decides that society should deny their existence.
On April 29 2025 18:53 Razyda wrote:
Problem is it works both ways and "left" used to be (still is) way more singe minded, while "right" had much more diversity of opinion. This started to change with Israel/Palestine war and got amplified after Trump election, when increasingly one opinion becomes correct. I wouldnt be surprised if right eventually became the very hive mind they accuse left to be.
For just about the entirety of my life, most of the main debates that I've seen in politics have been centered around factual claims, not opinions. The right said that if we give a bunch of tax cuts to the rich, they would use that money to make the lives of other people better, in a much more efficient way than the government can. It didn't happen, the rich just hoard their money and society gets worse for everyone else; they were wrong. They still push for more tax cuts for the rich today. The right said that if we let more minorities have rights or gay people marry, it's a slippery slope and ten minutes later we'd treat child abuse and zoophilia as protected groups. We haven't, none of that happened. It was a silly prediction. The right said that climate change was a hoax and we should keep destroying our planet. They were wrong, and now we're unlikely to make it to a century in the future because of them, which sucks a little in my opinion. The right said that the overreaches from Obama are threatening democracy, and now they're all ready to stand in line behind someone who very clearly threatens it a lot more than Obama ever could. The right said that racism and mysoginy were over now, and that we live in an equal society, then they got power again and they immediately went after the rights of women and non-white people.
The right having incorrect opinions is not a new phenomenon at all, it happens all the time on pretty much every topic. The reason why is simply materialism vs idealism.
On April 29 2025 18:53 Razyda wrote:
You do realise that you said this is faulty logic and then used the very same logic?
No I don't realize that, because it didn't happen. You are wrong.
On April 29 2025 18:53 Razyda wrote:
Regarding society, what do you mean "they"? You dont have an idea how society should be? I am pretty sure everyone has such an idea and also that everyone's ideas are at least slightly different.
It's a difference in priorities. To quote Google, "Materialism asserts that the physical world is the only reality, while idealism posits that the world is a product of the mind and consciousness." What's the most important thing, is it that trans people exist in the real world, or is it how the existence of trans people makes you (generic) feel? Depending on your answer, you'll shape a very different society.
On April 29 2025 18:53 Razyda wrote:
Please name some of those differences?
Cis women were assigned female at birth, and trans women were assigned male at birth? That's a pretty big difference? What are you even saying lol
|
On April 29 2025 18:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 18:28 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 16:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"... There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it. Wrong. More women (and men) think that trans women with penises should go to a men's prison than a women's prison. By a fairly wide margin. Women and men’s views are largely identical: 57% of men and 61% of women say this type of offender should go to a men’s prison, with only 14-15% saying they should go to a women’s prison. Personally I try to judge the goodness of something on my own and I don't really care what opinion polls say, but if you're going to cite opinion polls as some type of argument you should at least make sure they agree with your stance. Not what I claimed, I said "supportive of trans rights". Especially in the context of the UK, it is very common for trans exclusionists to act as if they are standing up for women, when it is very clear that trans rights are a feminist issue and fighting against trans rights is, well, not that. Because of that rhetorical strategy, the women of Terf Island are now more likely to be transphobic than the women of other places on this planet, but they're still usually either more supportive than men on at an equal level to men depending on the specific question.
Fighting against rights for trans people has never been a feminist thing, since the good old days of Glinner and Rowling allying themselves with hardcore Christian fundamentalist anti-abortion groups.
They'd rather see women have fewer rights than trans people have more rights.
Its a hate based movement, nothing more.
I'm not surprised by this court decision. The UK is a uniquely transphobic country, considering how relaxed we are generally about social issues.
|
Just build an own prison or a wing in a prison for ‚diverse‘ and rule any trans who provably underwent surgery and/or takes hormones as ‚diverse‘ and the debate isn‘t as complicated.
|
On April 29 2025 19:35 Vivax wrote:
Just build an own prison or a wing in a prison for ‚diverse‘ and rule any trans who provably underwent surgery and/or takes hormones as ‚diverse‘ and the debate isn‘t as complicated.
The problem that you fix by doing this is the actual problem that conservatives have, which is including trans people in society. You have excluded them, so they are happy, that's what their goal always is and was. You haven't prevented rapes, and you have to spend more money building unnecessary facilities.
If I have an issue with black people in prison and I pretend my issue is about rape, as if other races don't do rapes in prison, the correct response isn't to build race-specific prisons, the correct response is to tell me to shut the fuck up because I'm a weird dork.
|
On April 29 2025 19:21 Nebuchad wrote:
Cis women were assigned female at birth, and trans women were assigned male at birth? That's a pretty big difference? What are you even saying lol
Considering that you are rather selective in your answers I'll just go for the bolded.
"That's a pretty big difference?" - Why?
|
On April 29 2025 19:35 Vivax wrote:
Just build an own prison or a wing in a prison for ‚diverse‘ and rule any trans who provably underwent surgery and/or takes hormones as ‚diverse‘ and the debate isn‘t as complicated.
And now men are pretending to be trans to escape real prisons to go to ' trans holiday camps' - Dail Mail article on this idea haha
You can't win this debate with sensible ideas
|
On April 29 2025 20:12 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 19:21 Nebuchad wrote:
Cis women were assigned female at birth, and trans women were assigned male at birth? That's a pretty big difference? What are you even saying lol Considering that you are rather selective in your answers I'll just go for the bolded. "That's a pretty big difference?" - Why?
A penis and a vagina look different, which I believe you should be aware of at this point. Also different hormones, different secondary sexual characteristics, different gender expectations in society, one group gets pregnant and the other doesn't. Let me know if you require some further elaboration, I'll be here.
|
United States10501 Posts
On April 29 2025 18:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 18:28 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 16:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"... There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it. Wrong. More women (and men) think that trans women with penises should go to a men's prison than a women's prison. By a fairly wide margin. Women and men’s views are largely identical: 57% of men and 61% of women say this type of offender should go to a men’s prison, with only 14-15% saying they should go to a women’s prison. Personally I try to judge the goodness of something on my own and I don't really care what opinion polls say, but if you're going to cite opinion polls as some type of argument you should at least make sure they agree with your stance. Not what I claimed, I said "supportive of trans rights". Especially in the context of the UK, it is very common for trans exclusionists to act as if they are standing up for women, when it is very clear that trans rights are a feminist issue and fighting against trans rights is, well, not that. Because of that rhetorical strategy, the women of Terf Island are now more likely to be transphobic than the women of other places on this planet, but they're still usually either more supportive than men or at an equal level to men depending on the specific question. You quoted a source that says "Women and men’s views are largely identical" to describe the "fairly wide margin" by which more women support this particular claim, which I find amusing. Anyway, let's summarize this exercise in steelmanning, shall we? According to those last few exchanges, the "good arguments" that the right has on the topic of trans rights are: "here's a trans woman who raped someone in prison" and "if trans women are women then nobody is trans"? Those are terrible arguments, I would definitely have to deny basic reality in order to consider them. Anything better?
I don't know why you'd have to ignore basic reality to consider that women have been raped in women's prison by men claiming to be women. I even gave you the article saying as much. Here's another. And another. And another. All you have to do is believe women.
See I think this is bad. I think it's bad because I follow the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I were a vulnerable women I would not want to be locked in a cage with a person with a penis knowing that they are statistically far more likely to commit sexual assault and knowing they are far more likely to be physically stronger than me. Hell, it's almost like there's a reason we have separate prisons for men and women in the first place.
You seem to think it's okay because either a) We're suspicious that BJ doesn't care enough about rape in men's prisons or b) there's an obvious dichotomy where either we have to force women to share prison cells with people with penises or we have to let trans women be raped in men's prisons and there's no middle ground. Arguments that are so nonsensical I don't even know how to approach them.
|
On April 29 2025 20:23 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 18:54 Nebuchad wrote:On April 29 2025 18:28 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 16:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 29 2025 13:22 BlackJack wrote:On April 29 2025 07:58 KwarK wrote:
Is your contention that rape doesn’t happen when prisoners of the same biological sex are housed together? Because if not I don’t see where you’re going with this. Prison rape isn’t some new problem caused by trans predators, the specific failings of the prison in this instance would have been unchanged had the cellmate been the same biological sex.
Do you care about addressing prison rape or is this purely about maximizing the problems trans people face? Because I’m certain that most prison rape doesn’t involve trans perpetrators and yet you’re seemingly not concerned about any of those victims.
And do you think that prison rape involving trans people will go down if female presenting trans women are housed in male prisons? I question that as an anti rape strategy.
If anything you could reasonably conclude your stance as a rape maximalist stance. People with penises are overwhelmingly the ones committing rape. People with vaginas are overwhelmingly the victims of rape. Do you think forcing these 2 groups to share a cell is the rape minimizing strategy? Is your best attempt to steelman why women would be against biological males being in womens prison somewhere between “wanting to maximize the problems trans people face” and wanting trans people to be raped in men’s prisons? It’s almost like there is an ocean of room for alternatives and compromise between forcing women to share a cell with a man and forcing a femme appearing trans woman into gen pop of a male prison. The fact that you prefer to ignore that ocean and foist the worst arguments onto the other side nicely proves my point that you’re not anymore interested in nuance and good faith discussion. It's not "women" my friend, women are more likely to be supportive of trans rights than men. It's another of the very common tactics encountered, "Lesbians clearly don't want to date trans women and I'm on their side", (polls come out that show the large majority of lesbians support trans people), "Ah well nevertheless"... There might be an "ocean of room for alternatives" but what I am quite convinced of is that you haven't spent a single minute thinking about any of them, because you don't care about this at all. So, you know, describe those alternatives that you think would be better, go for it. Wrong. More women (and men) think that trans women with penises should go to a men's prison than a women's prison. By a fairly wide margin. Women and men’s views are largely identical: 57% of men and 61% of women say this type of offender should go to a men’s prison, with only 14-15% saying they should go to a women’s prison. Personally I try to judge the goodness of something on my own and I don't really care what opinion polls say, but if you're going to cite opinion polls as some type of argument you should at least make sure they agree with your stance. Not what I claimed, I said "supportive of trans rights". Especially in the context of the UK, it is very common for trans exclusionists to act as if they are standing up for women, when it is very clear that trans rights are a feminist issue and fighting against trans rights is, well, not that. Because of that rhetorical strategy, the women of Terf Island are now more likely to be transphobic than the women of other places on this planet, but they're still usually either more supportive than men or at an equal level to men depending on the specific question. You quoted a source that says "Women and men’s views are largely identical" to describe the "fairly wide margin" by which more women support this particular claim, which I find amusing. Anyway, let's summarize this exercise in steelmanning, shall we? According to those last few exchanges, the "good arguments" that the right has on the topic of trans rights are: "here's a trans woman who raped someone in prison" and "if trans women are women then nobody is trans"? Those are terrible arguments, I would definitely have to deny basic reality in order to consider them. Anything better? I don't know why you'd have to ignore basic reality to consider that women have been raped in women's prison by men claiming to be women. I even gave you the article saying as much. Here's another. And another. And another. All you have to do is believe women. See I think this is bad. I think it's bad because I follow the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I were a vulnerable women I would not want to be locked in a cage with a person with a penis knowing that they are statistically far more likely to commit sexual assault and knowing they are far more likely to be physically stronger than me. Hell, it's almost like there's a reason we have separate prisons for men and women in the first place. You seem to think it's okay because either a) We're suspicious that BJ doesn't care enough about rape in men's prisons or b) there's an obvious dichotomy where either we have to force women to share prison cells with people with penises or we have to let trans women be raped in men's prisons and there's no middle ground. Arguments that are so nonsensical I don't even know how to approach them.
I think the idea is that if you're going to commit to spending trillions on jails specifically for trans people, you'd probably want it to be based off statistically significant data, rather than 3 examples worldwide.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
