EPTRape and Incest - justification for Abortion? - Page 6
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:21 idonthinksobro wrote: so by defintion they just made abortion legal now because every girl can just say she was raped. Accusing someone of rape falsely is generally not something people should do lightly. If discovered, one can been tried for submitting a false report, among other things. | ||
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Fix637
United States256 Posts
Part of the problem is that many of the people writing these bills and lobbying against abortion are crusty old conservative white men who don't actually have any right whatsoever to be making these kinds of decisions. That being said, if I were to make the policy (which I shouldn't because I'm a man) I would say that abortion should only be allowed before the end of the first trimester (first three months). This is exempting cases of medical emergency wherein the woman's life would be threatened by carrying the pregnancy to term. Abortion should always be an option in that case. However, beyond medical emergency any woman who wants an abortion should have made that decision within the first three months of her pregnancy. Abortions in the second or third trimester for reasons other than medical emergency are, in my opinion, selfish and irresponsible. It's a very serious thing and should not be used as birth control for irresponsible women. The rape and incest cases are indeed tricky. Many opponents of abortion would argue that the woman should simply carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption. But any woman who has ever borne a child can attest just how difficult it is to give the baby up once it is born. Many women opt for adoption early on but by the time they reach the end of their pregnancy change their minds due to the powerful bond they feel towards their child - and rightly so considering what it took to bring that child into the world. Cases of rape add another layer to the issue by introducing the painful emotional scarring that rape brings with it, and the further emotional damage of a human life being created by that trauma. I would imagine that a woman who bears a child created by rape would love her child while at the same time feeling revulsion at the thought of what occurred to create it, which would likely extend to revulsion of the child itself. To ask a woman to deal with that kind of emotional trauma after having already been through being raped is inhumane at best. Luckily the first trimester rule is very helpful here. Even in the case of rape if a woman decides to keep the baby past the first trimester then I believe that the best thing to do would be to see the pregnancy through and give the baby up for adoption. If you can't decide to terminate after three months you probably shouldn't terminate at all and while carrying the child to term would be a burden, it is simple enough to give it up for adoption. The same goes for incestuous rape. The first trimester rule is also applicable to cases of voluntary incest. If a brother and sister decide to have sex and have a child, then they have about three months to decide whether or not they want to bring that child into this world. Even if the woman does carry the pregnancy to term I believe the child should be immediately taken into protective custody and put up for adoption, as two people who would engage in such a disgusting act should never be allowed to raise a child. Not only that, but there's no way such an environment could ever be healthy for that child. I can't deign to give an opinion on whether or not a child born of incest who is guaranteed to have congenital defects should be an exception. On the one hand that child's life will be painful and difficult, and will likely be a burden to those who have to care for it. On the other hand, aborting a child simply for having a birth defect treads into the area of eugenics, which is morally murky at best. At the end of the day I know one thing: I am a man. My chances of being raped are astronomically low and I will never, ever have to make the decision of whether or not I should abort a pregnancy - be it borne of rape, incest, or otherwise. I'm grateful for that, because it's a horrible and terrible issue. I only hope that the people writing these laws will think very carefully about the decisions they are making and listen to the women of our country, as they are the ones whom these laws will actually affect. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:24 Shiori wrote: Accusing someone of rape falsely is generally not something people should do lightly. If discovered, one can been tried for submitting a false report, among other things. I would argue that the fact that one is ruining the life of an innocent person should be the #1 reason not to make false accusations. EDIT: Also it is a bullshit statement to say that men shouldn't be allowed to make the laws concerning this just because they are men. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
Why don't we ask them wether they would've allowed their mothers to abort them? If the mothers can't deal with the kids, which would be totally understandable, there is always adoption. There are also a lot of cases where mothers later regreted having an abortion. People do not take the time it needs to think about such a decision. You do not have this time when you're pregnant. So in my eyes: No, abortion is never an option. | ||
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sumsaR
Sweden1812 Posts
Now, how the woman justifies it to herself is another matter entirely and that doesn't matter for if she can or cannot have an abortion. | ||
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Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
They won't all be the same, there will be some fluctuation in grades, social skills, and moralities of each child. This will make the teachers the care givers and family so the kids are more likely to listen to them. Not to mention the teachers will have more at stake as far as making sure the kid is mentally alright as well as not being picked on by other kids. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:21 idonthinksobro wrote: so by defintion they just made abortion legal now because every girl can just say she was raped. Of course, blame the victims because they are not hit heavy enough by being abused. You might not know, but there are ways to medically determine such horrible things happened. As long as catholic hospitals dont send away the victim. Assuming you're a male, I dont wonder much about such thinking. You might as well ask the woman that got raped and forcefully impregnated if she wants to keep the child. if not then there is not much to be discussed about. I would rather prevent the woman of having a reminder of her rape than have an abortion of a not even conscious being that doesn't even know it exists (unlike other animals that are being murdered for meat and so forth). e: and oh yeah, if you talk about potential life. Every sperm you ejaculated wanking off could have been a person some day, mass murderer! | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:31 Nacl(Draq) wrote: Just put everything up for adoption, funnel a ton of money into charities for children put in community based care (social services, orphanages or what not) to get them a great education, hire the best teachers to make sure they get the best possible chance at becoming something. Then watch as these kids without a family unit propel forward in life with decent social skills because of their constant interaction with kids and people their own age as well as superior knowledge. They won't all be the same, there will be some fluctuation in grades, social skills, and moralities of each child. This will make the teachers the care givers and family so the kids are more likely to listen to them. Not to mention the teachers will have more at stake as far as making sure the kid is mentally alright as well as not being picked on by other kids. That would be the theoretical best case scenario. However society runs not on what is ideal but on what is most cost efficient, and often times on what is most cost efficient on the short term... | ||
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Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:34 MasterOfPuppets wrote: That would be the theoretical best case scenario. However society runs not on what is ideal but on what is most cost efficient, and often times on what is most cost efficient on the short term... Well you are the Puppet Master so get to it! Make society move towards it. It'll help a lot of people out.  On a serious note. The government has actually worked to shut a few of these communal upbringing societies down. Fear about how they are actually cults/anti-government camps. Of course most of them were... So society doesn't even like the idea of this kind of thing. Too much fear for it to come about soon anyways. | ||
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Rainbow Cuddles
United States486 Posts
Most "Mens Rights Activists" arguments I see aren't that men should have a say in whether women abort or not, but that they should have a say in whether they become fathers or not. They believe that fatherhood should be voluntary, just as motherhood is. The popular term is 'legal paternal surrender.' There is the qualification of deciding while all options are still available to the mother (abortion, adoption, and safe haven abandonment) so that she can plan accordingly. The day abortion will become an unquestionable right. | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:24 Shiori wrote: Accusing someone of rape falsely is generally not something people should do lightly. If discovered, one can been tried for submitting a false report, among other things. you can just say some stranger did it and you didn't want to go to police because of shame. 6 weeks later nobody can tell anymore. /E i probably should say that i think abortions are OK and i think it is great that every women now can get an abortion if she just says she was raped. | ||
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Kazius
Israel1456 Posts
There isn't. Sometimes the truth is plainly black and white, with no middle ground, no argument, no justification for any other idea. This is one such case. | ||
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Stol
Sweden185 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:43 Rainbow Cuddles wrote: There are many justifications for abortion, but I still can't help but giggle at the thought of a bunch of guys discussing if abortion is justified. Not sure what to think about all of this. Most "Mens Rights Activists" arguments I see aren't that men should have a say in whether women abort or not, but that they should have a say in whether they become fathers or not. They believe that fatherhood should be voluntary, just as motherhood is. The popular term is 'legal paternal surrender.' There is the qualification of deciding while all options are still available to the mother (abortion, adoption, and safe haven abandonment) so that she can plan accordingly. The day abortion will become an unquestionable right. I've seen that picture before, but its still priceless  . | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
On June 16 2013 02:03 Christ the Redeemer wrote: The are nonreligious grounds against abortion, namely morality and ethics. But on topic, I think I agree that these may be valid reasons for possible abortion. But neither one of those are good reasons to have a law against it. | ||
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AeroGear
Canada652 Posts
Millions of children die every year of any given cause, and I dont see anyone here rushing to donate money to impoverished countries or figure out ways to help them out, they'd much rather spend it on a new 120$ Razer keyboard... I dont understand all the tantrum related to abortion, at any given stage. Seems like self-righteous hypocrisy to me. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
rape and incest should be allowed any time. It's hard enough having the traumatic experience of being raped. Only thing is that for rape, a police report should be required to get rid the majority of false claims. Not sure how to test for incest apart from DNA, which would be somewhat pricey. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:43 Rainbow Cuddles wrote: There are many justifications for abortion, but I still can't help but giggle at the thought of a bunch of guys discussing if abortion is justified. Not sure what to think about all of this. Most "Mens Rights Activists" arguments I see aren't that men should have a say in whether women abort or not, but that they should have a say in whether they become fathers or not. They believe that fatherhood should be voluntary, just as motherhood is. The popular term is 'legal paternal surrender.' There is the qualification of deciding while all options are still available to the mother (abortion, adoption, and safe haven abandonment) so that she can plan accordingly. The day abortion will become an unquestionable right. This. I have no idea how painful it is to bear a child so I think that if the girl for severe reasons (her man leaving her for example) doesnt want to take care of him or abort she should be able to. It s easy to talk about responsability when most of us are men, we arent the ones giving birth. Some people arent well educated and have difficult situations so women should have this right. On a sidenote awareness of oneself is developped way after birth like 2-3rs at the very least. And it isnt bullshit before that period you could say they feel alive just like animals and before that the only things are the feeling of pain and pleasure (nerves and dopamine synthesis). | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On June 16 2013 04:57 Amui wrote: My opinion is that the fetus should always be allowed to be aborted right up until the point where it has a large chance of being capable of surviving(I would argue 50-70%) outside the body. Confidential process, no questions asked. After that, if you can prove you are incapable of taking care of the child(below poverty line, homeless, both parents unemployed, possibly a few other factors I can't think of), then you will be given the option to put it up for adoption before abortion. rape and incest should be allowed any time. It's hard enough having the traumatic experience of being raped. Only thing is that for rape, a police report should be required to get rid the majority of false claims. Not sure how to test for incest apart from DNA, which would be somewhat pricey. The issue with having viability as cutoff is that as we improve in the field of medicine that cutoff will move. Arguably this is not a problem, although that would in theory result in abortion being illegal when someone invents the artificial womb. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On June 16 2013 03:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: but why would a rape victim wait until the third trimester to destroy the fetus?. Denial? Not realising until past 20 weeks? Rape destroys you both physically and mentally. To the person who posted on page 2 there should be no exception for rape victims to have an abortion - are you really serious? A raped woman, sometimes in their own home, should not have to endure the pain of the full pregnancy, birth and raising of a child as a result of being RAPED. | ||
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