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On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her.
No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers.
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On May 03 2013 01:30 Jormundr wrote:
So, since we're discussing larger issues of female identity, where does everyone stand on the virgin slut expectation?
I personally feel that we as a society need to let go of our puritanical ideas about sexuality. I personally think that our society goes too far trying to make sure that we don't ever see anybody naked. Then there is also the whole sex before marriage is bad crowd, which perpetuates the concept of the husband being in control of a woman's sexual identity. Then we have the popular portrayal of women, which showcases them as sexual objects, which is financially successful because real women are taught from a young age that showcasing your sexual identity is a bad thing. For instance, the prevalence of the words slut and whore as insults. Why should they be insults? Forgive me, because I apparently missed this part, but since when was having sex bad?
Having sex is bad only in a misogynistic culture where where sex is an act of masculine domination. Its apparent from things such lingo "I got fucked over" or "I'll fuck you up" wherein we, as a society, when expressing great hatred towards something, describe it as an act of someone having sex with us without our consent. When we wish to show domination we switch the term and use it as phrase to state we will have sex with the "other" without their consent.
It then extends to viewpoints. If we as a culture relate sexual domination as masculine--then female sexual domination is considered a taboo that goes against gender norms. Men fuck around, not women, because fucking around is a masculine trait, not a feminine one. This is because we as a society see the female as submissive--hence why we say "go back to the kitchen" or "make me a sandwich" where we equate the female with being a servant or slave.
By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination.
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On May 03 2013 01:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:22 goldenwitch wrote:
On one hand it makes me really sad that so many people are like, "It's okay to be an asshole on the internet." On the other hand, what is the alternative? Censorship? Taking away the freedom that makes the internet so good in the first place?
What is our option to fight against this kind of assdickery? The only one I can think of, is cultural pressure.
If they want to be dicks, the community should publicly shame them for being dicks, rather than applaud their dickedness with "it's funny" or "the internet is always like this".
Of course even that has its problems. Again, part of what makes the internet so good is that generally people won't shout you down for breaking their cultural norms, and if they do, they probably would have trolled you anyway.
Is our last resort a general request? "Please be nice."
Or do we split ourselves into tiny internet subcultures, exclusive little groups that remove those who disagree with them?
It's a really interesting social problem.
However, I don't think people should be saying, "There is nothing to be done about this." or more commonly, and far worse, "Get used to it."
There is something to be done here, we just need to think together long and hard about what it is. The solution is the same solution we have in real life--creating a mental zeitgeist of respect for each other. I wouldn't piss on your dinner table no matter how badly I needed to go to the restroom, I just excuse myself and piss in private. Why? Because I'm dealing with human beings. Now, if you weren't home, I still wouldn't piss on your table even if you'd never know it was me because I'm dealing with human beings and that would be wrong to do. Anonymity is an excuse--it mostly reveals that there is a societal problem. That societal problem is sexism, in this case it's misogyny.
I agree completely with your last statement. The anonymity simply highlights the problem by moving the victim out of the monkey-sphere of the assailant.
However, if we simply use cultural pressure to create "respect" for human beings, we risk ruining one of the pure things on the internet. Because of all the different cultural interactions, people have lost a lot of the nonsense part of their cultures. I would give examples, but it would be crude of me to judge another part of a culture as nonsensical. However, that is the whole point. At least some cultures must be nonsensical because they are contradictory to the other cultures. However because it is impossible to judge a culture objectively, the only option for cleaning up that irrational nonsense is the removal of the culture completely. I'll use a hypothetical example so as not to offend anyone.
If my culture believed that anyone who owned a dog was inherently a disgusting human being, I would have no suit on the internet. I would get on the internet, see people who own dogs, and suffer cognitive dissonance until I either gave up on the internet, or changed my cultural view.
If we do have that "respect", we are forced to adopt some ideas that will not be reasonable. Even if they are reasonable now, they might not be reasonable in 50 years. Is that a sacrifice worth making? Well maybe, but I sure enjoy the wild west, even if it has too many shootouts, murders, robberies, rapes, poor people, unhappy people, upset people, and truly mean people. I guess if history does repeat itself, the internet will make that sacrifice eventually.
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On May 03 2013 01:38 GGCalamity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her. No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers.
Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please.
You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
I can understand where she's coming from, but she started losing me a little over half way. Not being content highlighting the clearly insulting youtube comments, she moves towards comments which are quite ambiguous in intent and begins calling sexism.
The most hilarious part must be "‘JackArtStudios’ has thanked me for wearing uncomfortable t-shirts and used some hugely negative stereotypes.". She forced herself to wear an uncomfortable t-shirt, and then starts blaming this guy for it because he made what he, probably thought, was a compliment. To put it bluntly, if you can't even take compliments without over analyzing them, you're just not cut out for what you're doing.
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On May 03 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination.
"Rape and pillage" is a literal term. It's not uncommon for the civilian population to be tortured/slain/raped after being defeated.
On May 03 2013 01:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please.
You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming.
The problem lies in the attention that those actions bring. When it's positive, it's all fun and games. When it's negative, it's sexism and objectifying.
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On May 03 2013 01:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:38 GGCalamity wrote:On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her. No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers. Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please. You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming.
Victim blaming. LOL. It's the internet, so are you claiming every one is a poor victim? Get a clue. Men didn't create the culture of "tits or GTFO," female streamers that try to sell their bodies on stream did.
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On May 03 2013 01:46 GGCalamity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:38 GGCalamity wrote:On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her. No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers. Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please. You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming. Victim blaming. LOL. It's the internet, so are you claiming every one is a poor victim? Get a clue. Men didn't create the culture of "tits or GTFO," female streamers that try to sell their bodies on stream did.
Men only wanting women for their tits was around long before the internet and was treated with about the same amount of respect.
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On May 03 2013 01:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:38 GGCalamity wrote:On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her. No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers. Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please. You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming.
You need to be more precise with what you are talking about. In one post you call it "celebrates her body", "be sexual with her body", and "loving her body". What exactly do these mean, are they equivalent, and are they the same/different from the "using body to attract viewers" that you were responding to?
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On May 03 2013 01:45 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination. "Rape and pillage" is a literal term. It's not uncommon for the civilian population to be tortured/slain/raped after being defeated.
Yes... as I said... we equate rape with domination... we kill off the men and have our way with the civilians... ie, domination...
There's a reason we call it rape and not really unfortunate sex accident.
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On May 03 2013 01:36 Jojo131 wrote:
If you're a girl with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a fat person with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a black/asian/Pakistani/etc guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a gay guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're just a regular guy with a YouTube channel, you'll STILL get shat on.
What I hate about this article is that it's suggesting that the world/internet needs to make some special exception for women because "sexism on the internet" is somehow worse or requires more action compared to all the other reasons someone could be shitting on you over the internet like racism, fat intolerance, homophobia etc.
Nobody gives a shit when people rip on Boogie2988 for being overweight, or for ZJemptv's sexual identity, so why do people care when it comes to people ripping on girl123 for being a girl?
The internet is literally the one place where "comments" made against you probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Most of the time people already know this, then other times... articles like this.
"when the gender of an online username looks female, they are 25 times more likely to experience harassment"
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On May 03 2013 01:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:36 Jojo131 wrote:
If you're a girl with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a fat person with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a black/asian/Pakistani/etc guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a gay guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're just a regular guy with a YouTube channel, you'll STILL get shat on.
What I hate about this article is that it's suggesting that the world/internet needs to make some special exception for women because "sexism on the internet" is somehow worse or requires more action compared to all the other reasons someone could be shitting on you over the internet like racism, fat intolerance, homophobia etc.
Nobody gives a shit when people rip on Boogie2988 for being overweight, or for ZJemptv's sexual identity, so why do people care when it comes to people ripping on girl123 for being a girl?
The internet is literally the one place where "comments" made against you probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Most of the time people already know this, then other times... articles like this. " when the gender of an online username looks female, they are 25 times more likely to experience harassment"
That's basically the crux of the matter.
It's not trolling, its disproportionate trolling.
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On May 03 2013 01:48 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:38 GGCalamity wrote:On May 03 2013 01:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 01:28 GGCalamity wrote:
Sounds like she should be pissed at her fellow female gamers, not all the trolls that troll. If I had a dime for every time I saw a female streamer playing WoW or LoL looking like a stripper (and in a fair amount of cases, actually dancing in front of the camera), I'd own Tywin Lannister. You aren't going to change the trolls. Instead, teach some of the female streamers to have a shred of self-respect. Women are allowed to feel beautiful and celebrate their body. You thinking that they're sluts is you being sexist, not her. No one said anything about the promiscuity of a streamer. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but when you blatantly use your body to ATTRACT VIEWERS TO WATCH YOU PLAY A VIDEO GAME, you get what you deserve. There are literally ex-porn stars that use twitch/SC2 to spread their brand. This isn't doing anything but harming the community of actual female gamers. Once again, how a woman celebrates her body is irrelevant. Much like magazines with barely clothed women is targeted toward other women (not men) girls who want to be sexual with their body have the right to be sexual with their body--it's their fucking body, they do with it as they please. You saying that its their fault for loving their bodies is victim blaming. You need to be more precise with what you are talking about. In one post you call it "celebrates her body", "be sexual with her body", and "loving her body". What exactly do these mean, are they equivalent, and are they the same/different from the "using body to attract viewers" that you were responding to?
They are the same thing.
A woman who wants to be beautiful has the right to be beautiful much like a woman who wants to be a bad-ass Ryu player has the right to be a bad-ass ryu player. The woman who wants to be beautiful will love the comments she gets on her beauty and the woman who wants to be a bad-ass will love the comments she gets on her hitbox control.
The problem is that the beautiful woman will be called a dumb slut (instead of beautiful) and the street fighter player will be asked for tits (instead of combos).
Women are allowed to be people who enjoy what they're good at be it video games or make up.
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On May 03 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:30 Jormundr wrote:
So, since we're discussing larger issues of female identity, where does everyone stand on the virgin slut expectation?
I personally feel that we as a society need to let go of our puritanical ideas about sexuality. I personally think that our society goes too far trying to make sure that we don't ever see anybody naked. Then there is also the whole sex before marriage is bad crowd, which perpetuates the concept of the husband being in control of a woman's sexual identity. Then we have the popular portrayal of women, which showcases them as sexual objects, which is financially successful because real women are taught from a young age that showcasing your sexual identity is a bad thing. For instance, the prevalence of the words slut and whore as insults. Why should they be insults? Forgive me, because I apparently missed this part, but since when was having sex bad? Having sex is bad only in a misogynistic culture where where sex is an act of masculine domination. Its apparent from things such lingo "I got fucked over" or "I'll fuck you up" wherein we, as a society, when expressing great hatred towards something, describe it as an act of someone having sex with us without our consent. When we wish to show domination we switch the term and use it as phrase to state we will have sex with the "other" without their consent. It then extends to viewpoints. If we as a culture relate sexual domination as masculine--then female sexual domination is considered a taboo that goes against gender norms. Men fuck around, not women, because fucking around is a masculine trait, not a feminine one. This is because we as a society see the female as submissive--hence why we say "go back to the kitchen" or "make me a sandwich" where we equate the female with being a servant or slave. By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination.
In Ye Olden times, sexual taboo extended into basic biological reasoning: a guy can fuck 500 girls for all he cares and the only thing he really needs to worry about is contracting some sort of illness from doing so. Before contraceptives, women didn't have that freedom because they'd get pregnant and could only handle (in some extremes) a dozen or so kids in a lifetime.
Therefor the stigma "women shouldn't sleep around because doing so will breed more children, which is a pain in both the process of delivery and nurturing till fully grown"
Is this stigma still relevant in today's age? Well, consider 3rd world countries that dont have the same access to sex-ed and contraceptives.
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On May 03 2013 01:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:36 Jojo131 wrote:
If you're a girl with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a fat person with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a black/asian/Pakistani/etc guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a gay guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're just a regular guy with a YouTube channel, you'll STILL get shat on.
What I hate about this article is that it's suggesting that the world/internet needs to make some special exception for women because "sexism on the internet" is somehow worse or requires more action compared to all the other reasons someone could be shitting on you over the internet like racism, fat intolerance, homophobia etc.
Nobody gives a shit when people rip on Boogie2988 for being overweight, or for ZJemptv's sexual identity, so why do people care when it comes to people ripping on girl123 for being a girl?
The internet is literally the one place where "comments" made against you probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Most of the time people already know this, then other times... articles like this. " when the gender of an online username looks female, they are 25 times more likely to experience harassment"
Holy Jesus. Thank you for that link lol
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On May 03 2013 01:45 discomatt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination. "Rape and pillage" is a literal term. It's not uncommon for the civilian population to be tortured/slain/raped after being defeated.
That's "rape" with a different, old meaning, I'm pretty sure. It meant something like plunder, seize with force.
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
Harassment sucks, equally girls getting views far and above what the rest of their content deserves due to being attractive also sucks. Sexism isn't just the negative responses you get, it's also the benefits you receive from your sexual attractiveness, they both feed into the other surely?
I don't think the gaming community, or at least the denizens of TL are any more sexist than any other segment of society. If anything we're quite tolerant of those who are genuinely lovers of the Starcraft, and the ones who get the most negative comments are those that the community perceives not to be 'true' gamers.
Misogynist comments, racist comments are often used due to their power to offend as well. If you want to hurt/upset someone, you choose what is most likely to hit the mark I mean, I wouldn't do it, but I see that mentality a lot.
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On May 03 2013 01:55 Ropid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:45 discomatt wrote:On May 03 2013 01:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
By controlling female sexuality we maintain the masculine sexual dominance of female ownership. There's a reason we say "rape and pillage" when we talk about war because we equate rape with the act of domination--specifically with masculine domination. "Rape and pillage" is a literal term. It's not uncommon for the civilian population to be tortured/slain/raped after being defeated. That's "rape" with a different, old meaning, I'm pretty sure. It meant something like plunder, seize with force.
Both meanings still hold true. Americans simply equate the two to mean about the same thing.
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On May 03 2013 01:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:36 Jojo131 wrote:
If you're a girl with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a fat person with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a black/asian/Pakistani/etc guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a gay guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're just a regular guy with a YouTube channel, you'll STILL get shat on.
What I hate about this article is that it's suggesting that the world/internet needs to make some special exception for women because "sexism on the internet" is somehow worse or requires more action compared to all the other reasons someone could be shitting on you over the internet like racism, fat intolerance, homophobia etc.
Nobody gives a shit when people rip on Boogie2988 for being overweight, or for ZJemptv's sexual identity, so why do people care when it comes to people ripping on girl123 for being a girl?
The internet is literally the one place where "comments" made against you probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Most of the time people already know this, then other times... articles like this. " when the gender of an online username looks female, they are 25 times more likely to experience harassment"
Thats definitely an insightful link, thanks for sharing.
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On May 03 2013 01:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 01:36 Jojo131 wrote:
If you're a girl with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a fat person with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a black/asian/Pakistani/etc guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're a gay guy with a YouTube channel, you'll get shat on.
If you're just a regular guy with a YouTube channel, you'll STILL get shat on.
What I hate about this article is that it's suggesting that the world/internet needs to make some special exception for women because "sexism on the internet" is somehow worse or requires more action compared to all the other reasons someone could be shitting on you over the internet like racism, fat intolerance, homophobia etc.
Nobody gives a shit when people rip on Boogie2988 for being overweight, or for ZJemptv's sexual identity, so why do people care when it comes to people ripping on girl123 for being a girl?
The internet is literally the one place where "comments" made against you probably shouldn't be taken seriously. Most of the time people already know this, then other times... articles like this. " when the gender of an online username looks female, they are 25 times more likely to experience harassment"
Excellent bit of info there Mr. Grumbels  While I do think there is some merit to an encouragement that everyone put on their e-flak jackets when perusing the internet, to deny the prevalence of misogyny in gaming/digital culture is to put ones' hands over their eyes and ears while singing, "LALALALALALA."
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EPT
