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On April 28 2013 15:29 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living... See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work? Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living... See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work? Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT. Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks. I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company. I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse. The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc. Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time? For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four.
Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs.
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On April 28 2013 15:29 sluggaslamoo wrote:For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four. Yes, that's because game dev is the bottom of the software development world in terms of pay, hours, lifestyle, and general stress on the job. Not at every studio, but that's par for the course. The rest of the software development world is not like this.
(Talking about AAA studios here, where Valve is a shining exception, those guys are amazing. Smaller places aren't like this either, and I kinda hope the industry moves to less of a sweatshop type ordeal)
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Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
What I'm understanding here is that it's time to buy activision stock.
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64.9 mil a year... not bad cant hate him for that
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On April 28 2013 15:30 BirdKiller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 14:25 wUndertUnge wrote:http://kotaku.com/activisions-boss-got-an-800-raise-and-a-watchdog-doe-483773785"Activision has a lot of money. Bobby Kotick has fat stacks, too. The publisher's CEO saw his total cash-and-prizes compensation jump from $8.1 million in 2011 to $64.9 million in 2012, reports Bloomberg, a figure that would make him the second-highest paid CEO among publicly traded U.S. companies. Kotick is due for another $16 million if the company hits performance targets, too. The bulk of his compensation came in the form of stock awards valued at $55.9 million. (Though they vest over the next five years, Activision is required to report them all at once, now.) The cash salary he got was roughly the same as always, $8.33 million." How about reinvesting some of that money back into the company instead of feeding that fat double-chin of his? Sorry, but this kind of thing makes me so angry. Rarely does anyone actually deserve to be making this kind of money, not to mention the fact that no one could spend this much money in one lifetime. Has Kotick actually made any innovations, or did he just figure out how to turn it into a money machine? It makes me sad that Blizzard got into bed with these guys. I'm going to jump in here due to the gross inaccuracies and exaggerations you've put out. First off, Blizzard Activision has done extremely well during its last quarter, generating about $1.8 billion with a profit of about $350 million. Overall in 2012, the company generated about $5 billion (memory is fuzzy) with over $1 billion in profits for the year. Compare this with other publishers like EA and the video game industry overall, the publisher has been ahead of the curve in the industry. To shareholders point of view, this man absolutely deserves a raise, but it wasn't in form of cold hard cash, it was in the form of additional stocks, not directly from profits. This is absolutely not a 800% raise, nor is it a raise at all. Instead, he simply has more stake/ownership into the company now. In most cases, one would want to hold onto stocks for few years than to sell them in order to raise cash for reinvestment/capital. It's better to simply use the profits they have or take out a loan from a bank which the company has been doing. Now, you ask "how about reinvesting some of that money back into the company", and the company has indeed been doing that last year. Of the $1 billion profits from 2012, about $500 million went to shareholders, and most or rest of the $500 million went back into the company; Kotick's additional shares are not part of this. IMO, Kotick has made the company a money making machine, and from that viewpoint, deserves the compensation.
I agree that the 800% raise title is quite sensationalist and not actually true.
I think you are missing the point though. A games developer should not be solely looking at the bottom line, if it was all about the money, why is Blizzard even in the gaming industry at all?
Second of all. Either the shares are invested back in the company, in which case, the company still loses the 55 million while Kotick earns 55 million. Or the shares are sold to the public, in which case, more money will have to be paid to shareholders in the longterm, and Kotick still earns a substantial amount of money which he doesn't even need.
Either way its 55 million the company could have used to invest back into the company. There is no such thing as free money.
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On April 28 2013 15:43 yandere991 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 15:29 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living... See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work? Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living... See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work? Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT. Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks. I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company. I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse. The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc. Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time? For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four. Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs.
I guess the quality of life in your area may not be as good as mine, I mean it did seem really tough from what I saw (just not as much as employees for AAA title companies) so I thought I had the gist of it. It seems strange that slave wages are being paid out to any employee in your firms especially in the big four but I will concede my point as I have no proof to say its not. It was certainly far from the case from my experience.
However even though you think it might be bad, its still a mere shadow compared to working on an AAA title for some companies. I guess its really hard for people to gauge the difference until I give you an example.
How about being put into an interrogation room and being brought to tears, while being told you will never be paid until the game is finished, or getting fired after your work so they don't have to pay you.
Well Activision did just that on Modern Warfare 2.
http://au.wii.gamespy.com/wii/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare/1074453p1.html
http://www.1up.com/news/infinity-ward-lawsuit-claims-activision
Activision's investigation allegedly included a six-hour interrogation of West and Zampella in a windowless conference room. The plaintiffs state numerous Infinity Ward employees were also questioned and some even brought to tears during the interrogation. When West and Zampella refused to turn over their personal computers and cell phones, Activision's attorneys allegedly stated the pair was being insubordinate.
Just weeks before Messrs. West and Zampella were to receive the royalties for their hard work on Modern Warfare 2, Activision fired them in the hope that by doing so, it could avoid paying them what they had rightfully earned, and to seize control of the Infinity Ward Studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare branded games and had, apparently, decided it no longer wanted to live with.
The biggest difference is forced unpaid hours which is very common. What these companies like to do is say, you can "voluntarily" spend the nights sleeping in the office and work over hours for zero pay, however in the "fine print" they say if you don't do that you will get fired, so in the end its not voluntary at all.
You also have to consider that we are in the wake of the GFC, so lay offs aren't that uncommon in any industry. Even in a booming industry, Kotick is absorbing then firing entire companies in the most dehumanising way possible. He hardly deserves this raise when a gaming industry should not be all about the money.
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I wouldn't be able to look my employees i nthe eye if I did that, that takes a special kind of person.
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On April 28 2013 16:10 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 15:43 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:29 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
[quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
[quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT. Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks. I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company. I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse. The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc. Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time? For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four. Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs. I guess the quality of life in your area may not be as good as mine, I mean it did seem really tough from what I saw (just not as much as employees for AAA title companies) so I thought I had the gist of it. It seems strange that slave wages are being paid out to any employee in your firms especially in the big four but I will concede my point as I have no proof to say its not. It was certainly far from the case from my experience. However even though you think it might be bad, its still a mere shadow compared to working on an AAA title for some companies. I guess its really hard for people to gauge the difference until I give you an example. How about being put into an interrogation room and being brought to tears, while being told you will never be paid until the game is finished, or getting fired after your work so they don't have to pay you. Well Activision did just that on Modern Warfare 3. http://au.wii.gamespy.com/wii/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare/1074453p1.htmlhttp://www.1up.com/news/infinity-ward-lawsuit-claims-activisionShow nested quote +
Activision's investigation allegedly included a six-hour interrogation of West and Zampella in a windowless conference room. The plaintiffs state numerous Infinity Ward employees were also questioned and some even brought to tears during the interrogation. When West and Zampella refused to turn over their personal computers and cell phones, Activision's attorneys allegedly stated the pair was being insubordinate.
Show nested quote +Just weeks before Messrs. West and Zampella were to receive the royalties for their hard work on Modern Warfare 2, Activision fired them in the hope that by doing so, it could avoid paying them what they had rightfully earned, and to seize control of the Infinity Ward Studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare branded games and had, apparently, decided it no longer wanted to live with. The biggest difference is forced unpaid hours which is very common. What these companies like to do is say, you can "voluntarily" spend the nights sleeping in the office and work over hours for zero pay, however in the "fine print" they say if you don't do that you will get fired, so in the end its not voluntary at all. You also have to consider that we are in the wake of the GFC, so lay offs aren't that uncommon in any industry. Even in a booming industry, Kotick is absorbing then firing entire companies in the most dehumanising way possible. He hardly deserves this raise when a gaming industry should not be all about the money.
Unfortunately, the shareholders might not be gamers, and their goal is in conflict with ours, as well as the developers.
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People keep saying that gaming business shouldn't be about the money. I thought that was the whole point of any business. Sure it's all well and good for companies to have "mission statements," about improving the world and whatnot but I'm pretty sure that any business or any job for that matter is for the money. The vast majority of people work jobs they fucking hate for money and even if they "love" their job, they wouldn't do it for free. Why does everyone expect major companies to have some higher purpose when it comes to their business than they themselves do?
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On April 28 2013 14:52 screamingpalm wrote:
So Kickstarters FTW then?
Well Kickstarter is cool but it cannot replace the whole industry.
Basicly a kickstarter project is financed by its own customer, making everyone happy:
-Developers should satisfy their customer first because they no longer have to listen to shareholders.
-If the game disapoints, it won't raise another kickstarter. So they'll give their best.
-Since its usually small studios, the profit generally goes in majority back to the studio instead to a complete corporation.
However, there is huge drawbacks.
You have no guarantee that the project will be even founded. Right now the only big projects are follow-ups of decade old game. There is no way a new unknown studio for a new IP would raise more than 500K... which is very little if you want high quality.
Pledging requires faith. You pay years in advance for something that may not even be good. There is no way to raise enough money to cover the costs of big AAA titles.
Where Kickstarter shines is in projects that are already wanted by the public but dismissed by investors. For everything else it just wouldn't work.
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On April 28 2013 16:16 Magic_Mike wrote:
People keep saying that gaming business shouldn't be about the money. I thought that was the whole point of any business. Sure it's all well and good for companies to have "mission statements," about improving the world and whatnot but I'm pretty sure that any business or any job for that matter is for the money. The vast majority of people work jobs they fucking hate for money and even if they "love" their job, they wouldn't do it for free. Why does everyone expect major companies to have some higher purpose when it comes to their business than they themselves do?
This is very simplistic thinking. Many companies have developed a triple bottom line over a single bottom line. Its ironic that the big games companies are going to be some of the last to make the transition.
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If I had $64 Mn dollars I would use it to make Warcraft 4
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On April 28 2013 16:16 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 16:10 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 15:43 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:29 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
[quote]
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote:
It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise. Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year. On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
[quote]
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much. More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc... How in the...? They make computer games Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined. Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle. Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else. Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors. I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false. Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole. The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5. Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT. Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks. I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company. I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse. The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc. Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time? For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four. Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs. I guess the quality of life in your area may not be as good as mine, I mean it did seem really tough from what I saw (just not as much as employees for AAA title companies) so I thought I had the gist of it. It seems strange that slave wages are being paid out to any employee in your firms especially in the big four but I will concede my point as I have no proof to say its not. It was certainly far from the case from my experience. However even though you think it might be bad, its still a mere shadow compared to working on an AAA title for some companies. I guess its really hard for people to gauge the difference until I give you an example. How about being put into an interrogation room and being brought to tears, while being told you will never be paid until the game is finished, or getting fired after your work so they don't have to pay you. Well Activision did just that on Modern Warfare 3. http://au.wii.gamespy.com/wii/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare/1074453p1.htmlhttp://www.1up.com/news/infinity-ward-lawsuit-claims-activision
Activision's investigation allegedly included a six-hour interrogation of West and Zampella in a windowless conference room. The plaintiffs state numerous Infinity Ward employees were also questioned and some even brought to tears during the interrogation. When West and Zampella refused to turn over their personal computers and cell phones, Activision's attorneys allegedly stated the pair was being insubordinate.
Just weeks before Messrs. West and Zampella were to receive the royalties for their hard work on Modern Warfare 2, Activision fired them in the hope that by doing so, it could avoid paying them what they had rightfully earned, and to seize control of the Infinity Ward Studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare branded games and had, apparently, decided it no longer wanted to live with. The biggest difference is forced unpaid hours which is very common. What these companies like to do is say, you can "voluntarily" spend the nights sleeping in the office and work over hours for zero pay, however in the "fine print" they say if you don't do that you will get fired, so in the end its not voluntary at all. You also have to consider that we are in the wake of the GFC, so lay offs aren't that uncommon in any industry. Even in a booming industry, Kotick is absorbing then firing entire companies in the most dehumanising way possible. He hardly deserves this raise when a gaming industry should not be all about the money. Unfortunately, the shareholders might not be gamers, and their goal is in conflict with ours, as well as the developers.
Valve is certainly not doing this but I guess they are the exception.
The issue is whether it is moral for companies to attract shareholders that are only about the money. Even as a gamer, I would not be investing in shares in a games industry. I know you don't have a lot of control over it, but companies like Blizzard are less likely to attract those shareholders than companies like Activision due to their philosophy for instance.
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On April 28 2013 16:20 TheFish7 wrote:
If I had $64 Mn dollars I would use it to make Warcraft 4
I would hire Stephen Fry to follow me around and narrate my life.
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This man got rich at Activision by essentially coming in and saying "keep making those games that make you tons of money and take no risks, now pay me."
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On April 28 2013 16:22 Magic_Mike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 16:20 TheFish7 wrote:
If I had $64 Mn dollars I would use it to make Warcraft 4 I would hire Stephen Fry to follow me around and narrate my life.
I would hire Stephen Fry and Morgan Freeman to narrate the conversations and arguments I have in my head with myself...
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On April 28 2013 15:48 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 15:30 BirdKiller wrote:On April 28 2013 14:25 wUndertUnge wrote:http://kotaku.com/activisions-boss-got-an-800-raise-and-a-watchdog-doe-483773785"Activision has a lot of money. Bobby Kotick has fat stacks, too. The publisher's CEO saw his total cash-and-prizes compensation jump from $8.1 million in 2011 to $64.9 million in 2012, reports Bloomberg, a figure that would make him the second-highest paid CEO among publicly traded U.S. companies. Kotick is due for another $16 million if the company hits performance targets, too. The bulk of his compensation came in the form of stock awards valued at $55.9 million. (Though they vest over the next five years, Activision is required to report them all at once, now.) The cash salary he got was roughly the same as always, $8.33 million." How about reinvesting some of that money back into the company instead of feeding that fat double-chin of his? Sorry, but this kind of thing makes me so angry. Rarely does anyone actually deserve to be making this kind of money, not to mention the fact that no one could spend this much money in one lifetime. Has Kotick actually made any innovations, or did he just figure out how to turn it into a money machine? It makes me sad that Blizzard got into bed with these guys. I'm going to jump in here due to the gross inaccuracies and exaggerations you've put out. First off, Blizzard Activision has done extremely well during its last quarter, generating about $1.8 billion with a profit of about $350 million. Overall in 2012, the company generated about $5 billion (memory is fuzzy) with over $1 billion in profits for the year. Compare this with other publishers like EA and the video game industry overall, the publisher has been ahead of the curve in the industry. To shareholders point of view, this man absolutely deserves a raise, but it wasn't in form of cold hard cash, it was in the form of additional stocks, not directly from profits. This is absolutely not a 800% raise, nor is it a raise at all. Instead, he simply has more stake/ownership into the company now. In most cases, one would want to hold onto stocks for few years than to sell them in order to raise cash for reinvestment/capital. It's better to simply use the profits they have or take out a loan from a bank which the company has been doing. Now, you ask "how about reinvesting some of that money back into the company", and the company has indeed been doing that last year. Of the $1 billion profits from 2012, about $500 million went to shareholders, and most or rest of the $500 million went back into the company; Kotick's additional shares are not part of this. IMO, Kotick has made the company a money making machine, and from that viewpoint, deserves the compensation. I agree that the 800% raise title is quite sensationalist and not actually true. I think you are missing the point though. A games developer should not be solely looking at the bottom line, if it was all about the money, why is Blizzard even in the gaming industry at all? Second of all. Either the shares are invested back in the company, in which case, the company still loses the 55 million while Kotick earns 55 million. Or the shares are sold to the public, in which case, more money will have to be paid to shareholders in the longterm, and Kotick still earns a substantial amount of money which he doesn't even need. Either way its 55 million the company could have used to invest back into the company. There is no such thing as free money.
Even though a game company should focus on making games, the company is owned by thousands of people, groups, and institutions of diverse profile with a common goal: increase the value of the company. They effectively own the company, and therefore, the company's ultimate goal is to increase the value of the company. Creating video games is a means to this as it should.
I'm not understanding the logic of:
"shares being invested back into company" = "company still loses $55 million" + "Kotick earns $55 million"
In form of share buybacks, the shares are erased, reducing the number of stocks while maintaining the value of the company, and therefore increasing the value of the remaining stocks. The increase in value of stocks doesn't all go to Kotick, it gets distributed evenly among all the shareholders. Based on the current stats of Activision stocks, Kotick would only earn at most $510,000 more if Activision buybacks $55 million worth of shares.
"shares being sold to the public in which case more money will have to be paid to shareholders in the longterm"
In form of Activision owning at least $55 million worth of shares and selling them to the market in order to raise capital. That is financially a stupid decision that can only be seen as an act of desperation. There are far better ways to raise cash for capital, primarily through bonds and loans. Not only that, but it also reduces the value of the shares which goes against shareholder's interests. Furthermore, Activision won't being paying substantially more to shareholders, only about $684,000 more per year in form of dividends, that's not bad from cashing in $55 million, although it's still a retarded move.
There is no such thing as free money that's true. However, this $55 million came from something the company shouldn't or can't use to reinvest along with money from interested buyers, not from the company's cash or profits.
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On April 28 2013 16:14 jalstar wrote:
I wouldn't be able to look my employees i nthe eye if I did that, that takes a special kind of person.
Hehe, that is actually a good point. Ruthlessness appears to be a highly valued commodity for the bigger companies bosses.
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Well if he increases company profit by over 64 million more than a replacement CEO, then if I were vested in the company I would understand compensating him that much?
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I'm sure he worked 800% harder
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EPT
