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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Opt-outs for moral reasons that are seemingly the preserve of religious groups are retarded as well. You should be able to opt out for non-religious reasons as well. Plus, people make out as if economic circumstance aren't a motivator. There's always that pull if the military struggles to get the manpower, there's rampant unemployment, so that carrot will always be there as well. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
Just wanted to point out that Libya (that grey north-African country) has mandatory military service but enforcing it is next to impossible due to the recent civil war. Anyway I did almost 2 years of military service and found it a complete waste of time. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
I see mandatory military service being very situational, I can very well understand it for countries like Finland, South Korea and Israel (though I might always not agree how the military is used) but in places like UK, US, Russia and China which have large population MMS is not necessary. Big nations can have large enough professional armies without any general conscription. | ||
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Bobgrimly
New Zealand250 Posts
The world is a horrible place and there are horrible people who will do horrible things. Sadly sometimes killing them is the only answer. However forcing someone to do that is wrong. It should always be a choice and no one should have that choice made for them. | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:06 Hookster wrote: If you are not a soldier by your spirit and mind-set, you are sentenced to get overrun by the government and the policy makers. The government should be afraid of its people, not the other way around. Military service is expressly designed as a massive resocialization to break down independant thought and get you to execute orders from your superiors without hesitation. This practice doesn't better equip you to question policy makers by any stretch of the imagination and often leads to superiors expressing their political ideals in relation to the security of the military profession. (Even some charitable organizations in the military ala the CPOs mess are thinly veiled with their pro-conservative neo-con ideals.) Being a "soldier" by "spirit" is not exclusive to people trained by the armed forces. I'm a first class petty officer in the us military FYI. This otherwise interesting thread is degenerating into machismo and military aggrandizement. If I wanted that, I'd watch any American military movie since 1980. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:03 cozenage wrote: The purpose is to force people to work against their will. Just because you attach niceties such as "teaching discipline or civic responsibility" doesn't change the fundamental nature of the act. The service is different for different countries. For example: in the US, the service required is to register your name once you're 18. It requires one signature and zero effort afterwards. This is different from say Israel which requires a length of service over a period of time. Each country has their own way of implementing the system and the amount of "work" asked of you is between zero => a few years. And there isn't any niceties to it--when you choose to stay in a country you are in essence agreeing to be part of their cultural norms. If part of those norms is the government giving young adults money to go to school, then you accept that as normal. If part of those norms is the government asking young adults to be part of an education program, then you accept the norm. If part of those norms has it so that the education program has some level of military aspects to it, you accept it as the norm. The US requiring young adults to have their name registered in the military is no different than requiring their name to be registered into the DMV when you want to drive a car. Except people get in trouble and are harassed more often for getting their name into the DMV registry than the Army registry. calling it slavery is trying to misdirect the emotions of the argument in order to circumvent the need to have an actual argument against it. I personally hate conscription, but I don't actually have an argument against it other then I do no like it. Saying a government can't force their citizens to regimented exercise and required national camaraderie all while giving work training in order for people to have work history in their records instead of a blank jobless history a lot of college grads have instead just sounds silly to me. | ||
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xpldngmn
Austria264 Posts
from Wikipedia: Of specific note is the "War Voting Act". In this act, if the United States wished to engage in armed conflict with any other country, a national referendum was required to be held. Voting on a war is limited to citizens eligible for military service and not currently in the military. In the event that the article was passed and the country was to go to war, those who had voted for war were the first to be enlisted in the armed forces, those who did not vote were the second group conscripted, and those who voted "No" were the third group. A personal note: In Austria we still have mandatory conscription, but you can refuse to serve with a weapon and do civil service instead. I chose this so called "Zivildienst" and I could take a lot of very influental experinces with me, both good and bad. I'd recommend everyone to do this. The big problem is, if you don't live with your parents or they can't support you, you are completely broke and can't really afford ANY standard of living because the money you earn is a joke. It is basically forcing young men into one year of poverty to fill holes in Austria's social system, for example ambulances heavily rely on these young man. It would take a lot of money to create those jobs now done by forced young men. Austria recently held a referendum about removing mandatory conscription. Pollsters found out that people voted for keeping it not because of military arguments or defense, they wanted to keep it because of the mandatory civil service. | ||
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tehlemur
Montenegro5 Posts
IMO, one of the best years in my life. Conscription is meant to teach you basic weapons handling and to follow orders | ||
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AysiktiriX
358 Posts
However, I strongly believe every man would only gain from a "newbie center". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:38 AysiktiriX wrote: I think conscription isn't necessary a good thing, I served 9 months. Out of these, the first 45 days were the "newbie center", where you are taught how to follow orders, throw grenades, fire machineguns and so on. The other was time spent doing menial tasks like cleaning the barracks, doing sentry duty and so on. However, I strongly believe every man would only gain from a "newbie center". What do they gain exactly from that? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:38 AysiktiriX wrote: I think conscription isn't necessary a good thing, I served 9 months. Out of these, the first 45 days were the "newbie center", where you are taught how to follow orders, throw grenades, fire machineguns and so on. The other was time spent doing menial tasks like cleaning the barracks, doing sentry duty and so on. However, I strongly believe every man would only gain from a "newbie center". Doesn't even have to be so directed. Physical education is already a part of US schools, especially high schools and grade schools. Requiring the last two years of high school to have PE (Physical Education) that is similar in training to some basic and common boot camp exercises with a strict grading policy would produce similar results in both physical aptitude and mental discipline. The goal being to force discipline into physically capable students and to force physicality to grade grubbing students. It would also force the philosophical ideal of a "whole" human that is both physical capable as well as mentally capable. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:24 Oukka wrote: Finland is a bad example for a discussion about armed forces. We are a tiny nation with something like 15 hectares of land per person. It is extremely inconvienient and costly, if even possible at all, to defend this country with less than 300,000 men. Military consisting of only hired personnel (and voluntaries) could probably not hold long enough for the reserves to be called to arms and organized. I see mandatory military service being very situational, I can very well understand it for countries like Finland, South Korea and Israel (though I might always not agree how the military is used) but in places like UK, US, Russia and China which have large population MMS is not necessary. Big nations can have large enough professional armies without any general conscription. That said, all 300,000 of Finland's fighting men are badass. Look at the Winter War  As a Russian, I think the draft is more emergency than anything, seeing as almost all of the manpower is going into reserve forces. Russia is a large country with few people, and if anything, the draft ensures that Russia can stay intact if it gets invaded, particularly the less populated areas. Also might probably be historically based, losing millions of soldiers and civilians to a Nazi invasion in World War II might make you a little bit paranoid. The other three you named don't have a draft and looks like they're happy with things the way they are. | ||
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Rash
Mexico45 Posts
On April 02 2013 06:59 Hookster wrote: Usually if you have a strong nation, you have good defence willingness. In Finland that is around 80%, which is very high. If it was not mandatory, everybody would not go there. Why? Because when you are 18-20 you are still a kid and you do stupid things. After the service you have good memories about it. Also, sometimes in life you have to do something which is not fun. Get over it. Edit: and for the conscription picture: it is not the same everywhere. De jure it is "mandatory" in many nations, but rich people buy their way out of it. For example, in México (where I live atm) you can just bribe the officials to skip the service. It's semi-mandatory. I'm mexican as well, and there's a raffle where a ball is picked. If when your name is called a black ball is pulled, it means you have to be "available" which for the last 50+ years means you forget about it and just pick your papers in a few months. If a white ball is pulled, then you can pick between civil service (mainly take part in alphabetization/reforestation/disaster recovery stuff) or the actual military training on the army or navy once a week for 11 months. The black to other colors ratio is about 10/1 However, I do agree that if a white or blue is pulled, bribing the officer is traditionally resorted by wealthy people, although passing military service is socially regarded as an accomplishment, so they guys that pass through it are generally proud of doing so. | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
On April 02 2013 07:44 Rash wrote: It's semi-mandatory. I'm mexican as well, and there's a raffle where a ball is picked. If when your name is called a black ball is pulled, it means you have to be "available" which for the last 50+ years means you forget about it and just pick your papers in a few months. If a white ball is pulled, then you can pick between civil service (mainly take part in alphabetization/reforestation/disaster recovery stuff) or the actual military training on the army or navy once a week for 11 months. The black to other colors ratio is about 10/1 However, I do agree that if a white or blue is pulled, bribing the officer is traditionally resorted by wealthy people, although passing military service is socially regarded as an accomplishment, so they guys that pass through it are generally proud of doing so. I love how you guys made a game-show out of it. Is the selection-process televised, commentated and girls in bikinis shake their marraccas, while a guy with a mustache and a huge hat shoots two pistols in the air? | ||
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Hookster
Finland4 Posts
And for Kronen: it is harder for the government to order the military something bad for its citizens if it made of the nations citizens. Different story for mercenaries. You have pros and cons with both of them, so usually one might want to a bit of both. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
As one of the remaining sexist constructs, I'd say open to both sexes eligible for combat. I mainly feel this way from the economic impact of conducting wars with unwilling participants. The most recent example was Vietnam. Draft dodgers and low morale in addition to a host of other problems associated with the way that war was waged. Major economic disruption as the machinery of industry is now understaffed. It is best only used when the entire country faces invasion and tyranny. | ||
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On April 02 2013 05:39 Brawny wrote: Considering how the draft was received during the vietnam war here in the US, I can't imagine how it would be received in this day and age. Regardless of whether or not it's necessary, I think the outcry would be too great. I can't speak for other countries though. Vietnam war is probably the single worst example to advocate a draft for. Turns out fighting a political battle vs communism 10,000 miles away in a country that will never affect the U.S. is a shitty reason to die for. At least if that country 10,000 miles away didn't attack you on your own soil, killed thousands of Americans and isn't called Japan. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
koreans see it as more of a pride thing; need to protect their proud country, protecting their family, serving your country. it isnt so romantic, plenty of people hate it. (the morale of korean military is debatable from what i hear) there's always two sides to the story. there are people that fakes injuries so they can avoid it and there are those who accept it. your country is under threat, you can say "i will fight for my country" or "i dont want to be involved", one will obviously look brighter light than the other. it really varies by country and its people, usa isn't really under threat from war and people have so many different backgrounds that not everyone is up for fighting for the red white and blue, and only for the right reasons, like muhammad ali aka cassius clay. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
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