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You assume he's implying this. If you know more about pope francis, you'll know that if he wanted to say that, he would have said that.
Don't be an "anti-catholic" just for fun. He's one of the most progressist pope catholic ever had. Not perfect ? Of course. But there's clearly a good progression.
Also, when he said atheist will go to paradise too, other catholics said he was wrong. There's a war inside the catholic church, between someone who want it to evolve, and some other who want to go back to dark ages. (just a metaphor, don't take it litteraly). I think we better help the one who want it to evolve.
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I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments.
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United States42607 Posts
You mean not a cis woman. They are a real woman.
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On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments.
What makes a real man or a real woman?
It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked?
It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] .
It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] .
Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina?
And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ?
p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people.
Oh, and about that bone density. It's also nonsense.
edit: I also wanted to mention that your knowledge of human physiology is almost laughable when you listed the adam's apple as a characteristic of men. You realize that women have one too, right? It's just typically much less pronounced.
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On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
Having a gender is entirely normal.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
We know there are men and women with gender which don't match what you would expect according to their chromosomes. You're misusing science when you say that any of that information make someone a man or not a "real" woman. You also don't seem to be educated on the subject in the rest of your paragraph.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman.
Not all "real" women do either.
Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman.
No, lets. I'm not saying he has no right to that feeling, but it's certainly not the fault of the trans woman.
That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest.
Not commenting here, as I had that discussion all of yesterday. I do always disclose, but you have no idea what you're asking, and there is little reason to think in an ideal world that is how it should be.
It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think.
You aren't educated enough on this subject.
And I should have the right to know.
The discussion to date was, why do you have the right to know someone's medical history. "I should" isn't an answer.
And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm completely normal, thanks. Irrational fear of having had sex with someone might be normal too, but any consequences are entirely from the man in this instance. Do you tell people you think trans people aren't normal before a one night stand, for instance? Perhaps people who support a neo-Nazi ideology should have to, too? To be clear, no one in the thread was arguing that someone with a known issue with it shouldn't be told, the discussion was on whether it should be presumed there's an issue and why or when it shouldn't be/what kind of numbers.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments.
I'm a woman. I'm actually real. I'm therefore a real woman. You meant to say a cis woman, I presume, so I'm not going to call you out for being transphobic but you should know the language. During instances where it's necessary to differentiate between cis women and trans women, one doesn't suddenly become not a woman.
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On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. (...) You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
Ur sloppily changing from a naturalistic to an emotive responsepattern. Science doesnt take sides in whats "normal" or whats "fake". Whether something is normal or not isnt something you can answer with biology alone. Dont pretend you can.
The way I see it, it costs me absolutely nothing to consider a transwoman a "real woman". On the other hand, it is of great benefit for her. So why wouldnt I? The issue of sleeping with transwomen/men or not isnt tied to whether they are "real women" or not either. There are loads of "real women" I would never sleep with. Whether or not a transwoman is among those I dont know, I dont think I would mind if they look and feel exactly like someone born a woman.
And re: telling before you sleep with people, youre beating a dead horse.
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On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people.
Ok well
a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean.
b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse.
c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No
Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia.
And I am actually quite up to date on Fallon Fox, I am a huge MMA fan. Guess what, fallon was a sub par male fighter. Got the change, and is now brutually beating on naturally born woman. And the bone density is legit. Yes it decreases over time, but is still more dense than that of a naturally born female.... So nice try, oh and guess what? This is a huge matter in the MMA communitiy, most top tier female fighters (rousey, tate, etc) Have already stated they would NEVER fight "her"
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United States42607 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia.
"Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No"
If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement.
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On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia.
The point is that you're being logically inconsistent with your criteria if you deny that trans women are real women while affirming that these cis women are real women. Your only choice to remain consistent is to deny that some cis women are real women, or go back on your own position and admit that trans women are real women. Your choice.
Not a loophole, it's just science and logic.
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On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement.
Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different.
If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat.
And what the fuck does race have to do with anything, take your stupid comparisons. And get the fuck outta here with it, none of them are comparable. You are so stupid sometimes Kwark.
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On August 03 2013 21:35 Asarha wrote:
You assume he's implying this. If you know more about pope francis, you'll know that if he wanted to say that, he would have said that.
Don't be an "anti-catholic" just for fun. He's one of the most progressist pope catholic ever had. Not perfect ? Of course. But there's clearly a good progression.
Also, when he said atheist will go to paradise too, other catholics said he was wrong. There's a war inside the catholic church, between someone who want it to evolve, and some other who want to go back to dark ages. (just a metaphor, don't take it litteraly). I think we better help the one who want it to evolve.
Are you talking to me? How am I being anti-Catholic? The media are anti-Catholic by twisting the pope's answer out of context. Just read the article I linked to and see for yourself what the pope actually said, what was the context and how the media headlines are twisting it.
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United States42607 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:44 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement. Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different. If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat.
You come into here holding your ignorance like a badge of pride, your conclusions already drawn and when confronted with internal logical inconsistencies in your beliefs you immediately leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You're a colossal moron.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I must admit, I love it when Kwark talks dirty 
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On August 03 2013 22:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:44 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement. Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different. If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat. You come into here holding your ignorance like a badge of pride, your conclusions already drawn and when confronted with internal logical inconsistencies in your beliefs you immediately leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You're a colossal moron.
Science isn't ignorance. I'm sorry I offended you.
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United States42607 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:50 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:47 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:44 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement. Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different. If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat. You come into here holding your ignorance like a badge of pride, your conclusions already drawn and when confronted with internal logical inconsistencies in your beliefs you immediately leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You're a colossal moron. Science isn't ignorance. I'm sorry I offended you.
There is nothing scientific about your view. Science is what you ran scared from. Now leave the topic the way you said you would or stay and actually read. Science shows us that there are a bunch of other options as well as XX and XY that show up naturally, that sex at birth isn't that simple, that a bunch of people have extra stuff, or stuff missing, or some combination of the two. These people are surgically fixed and are considered cis by you. And yet trans people get lumped into some different category because you believe, incorrectly, that it is binary and that they don't qualify. You have zero scientific basis for this view, you are ignorant, and when your ignorance was explained to me you went "don't come at me with your facts as if those are relevant". You are so ignorant that you can't even see the veil of "it's science" that you use to disguise your transphobia doesn't even make sense. Not only do you not know what you're talking about, you know so little about what you're talking about you can't even tell you don't know what you're talking about.
So don't go science. Science doesn't want you. Maybe try religion, they're good at irrational hatreds of groups.
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On August 03 2013 22:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:50 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:47 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:44 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement. Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different. If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat. You come into here holding your ignorance like a badge of pride, your conclusions already drawn and when confronted with internal logical inconsistencies in your beliefs you immediately leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You're a colossal moron. Science isn't ignorance. I'm sorry I offended you. There is nothing scientific about your view. Science is what you ran scared from. Now leave the topic the way you said you would and fuck off.
There is plenty, you however posed OPINIONS. No science, you dumb fuck.
Now Kwark, you are the worst mod this site has. You should had your mod status taken many a moon ago. Go fuck yourself. Please put the part where you tell me to fuck off, back in please. Fucking coward mod.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Arkless you didnt even respond to any of the points that were raised. Why did you come in here if you didnt want to discuss? This is not a debate-forum.
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I don't think kwark said his opinion was scientific facts, but his moral beliefs. You on the other hand claim that your opinions are science.
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On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments.
Your post is obviously pathetic in nature, but I won't dwell into that.
If you don't find the characteristics you posted like "The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple" attractive, that's fine. If you, however, truly find a cute chick and you connect, you end up sleeping with her and it turns out that was a trans woman, guess what, you slept with a woman who you found attractive as a sexual partner. That's because transsexuals ARE women, they were just born in the wrong body and they're trying to get back to the state their brain is telling them they should be to not feel miserable with their lives.
You didn't sleep with someone who tried to impersonate a woman, it was a woman, and you found her attractive and your intent was to sleep with an attractive woman and never see her again. Everything else is just rationalizations for your beliefs and an attempt to boost your ego. I mean, I struggle with this idea as well. If I saw a hot girl, was about to hit on her and someone whispered in my ear that they are transsexual, my natural instinctual reaction is to feel "icky". However, as a rational human being I realize that this is mostly culturally driven phenomenon and I try to change my behaviour for that reason. You can't shake off the feeling that some characteristics of their body are still a man and it's such a huge deal to you, I get it.
However, it shouldn't be. I don't know I could call you or me a bigot for having this kind of response, but I think it's something we should work on consciously instead of relegating the whole thing to "Oh, that's just what I find attractive, that's none of your bussiness" excuses.
This whole fear of "diminishing your manhood" or whatever by "dipping your dick into someone whose body was once a man" *is* irrational and transphobic. Having transphobic attitude may not mean we hate trans people or treat them unfairly, but we still have a certain irrational drive which we should strive to fix.
With all that said, I suppose in our culture we do make exceptions to sex specifically, as sexual attraction is one of those things we largely can't control. Now I do believe that if they were moral people they should tell you because even though your beliefs why you wouldn't want to sleep with them are IMO irrational, you still have the right to know and withhold from having sex with them.
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United States42607 Posts
On August 03 2013 22:53 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:50 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:50 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:47 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:44 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 22:37 Arkless wrote:On August 03 2013 22:30 shinosai wrote:On August 03 2013 22:14 Arkless wrote:
I think there is a big part of this argument missing.
First of all, let's all be realistic here. Being Trans isn't a normal thing, you can try and say "society has all the issues, etc" and "it's societies fault we aren't accepted" but the fact of the matter is. IT ISN'T NORMAL. With that said, do what you want to make yourself happy.
BUT, like I said it isn't normal. Let's get down to some scientific, brass tax here. You can put whatever bow u want to on the package (no pun intended) but scientifically, YOU ARE NOT A REAL WOMAN. You have both chromosomes, you have the bone density of a man. The reaction time of a man, the hands and jaw of a man. An adams apple, ETC. Even after years of taking hormones.
You do not have, ovaries, a uterus, the ability to become pregnant or have your period.Among some other things that come with being born a natural woman. Even when it comes to a 1 night stand, a straight male is subconsciously trying to reproduce. It just so happens to feel good, which is the reward mechanism we are born with to make sure we procreate.So let's not pretend that it's the guys' fault for not wanting to be with a trans woman. That is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. And the few trans woman who say they don't feel the need to disclose to a sexual partner they were once a man. Is pretty fuckin deplorable if you ask me. No, of course you shouldn't have to tell everyone you were trans. But when it comes down to the actual act of having sex, I think I have the RIGHT to know what I am putting my penis into. And you have to tell him, you know by not telling him you were trans you are being dishonest. It is not a real vagina, regardless of what you think. And I should have the right to know. And the arguments based on " He may never know" is so gross, you assume he would never find out. But if he does, he is definitely going to be affected mentally, and not positively. And if you say, " well that's his problem" Well, no it isn't. You lied by omission. You aren't normal, so don't pretend you are.
I'm sure this all sounds harsher than intended. I know I would definitely be pissed if I had unknowingly slept with a trans woman, only to find out later it wasn't an actual woman.
And guess what, I don't hate trans people. So INb4 TRANSPHOBE comments. What makes a real man or a real woman? It can't be chromosomes because some men[1] are born with XX chromosomes and some women[2] are born with XY chromosomes. When was the last time you got your chromosomes checked? It can't be hormones because a trans men will have the same levels as a cis man and a trans woman will have the same levels as a cis woman, if they are on HRT. And hormones control secondary sexual characteristics[3] . It can't be primary sex characteristics because some cis men have internal female organs [4] , breasts[5] , and no penis[6] . Some cis women have internal male organs[7] , no breasts[8] (or they lose them[9] ), or no vagina[10] . Some people think that a metoidioplasty or a phalloplasty for a trans man doesn't result in a "real" penis, or that a vaginoplasty doesn't result in a "real" vagina. What makes a metoidioplasty made penis different from a man with a micropenis[11] (especially a guy like this[12] ?) How is a phalloplasty made penis different from a man with erectile dysfunction[13] ? How is a vaginoplasty made vagina different from a cis woman's vagina? And what makes a post op trans person different from a cis person who's sterile[14] ? p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people. Ok well a) I'm not fully up on all the terminology. So, let's just forget that, you guys know what I mean. b) Nice little attack "When was the last time I you got your chromosomes checked" I'm going to assume you are trans and I offended you. I didn't mean it offensively, so get off your horse. c) "p.s. You can still have transphobic attitudes even if you don't hate trans people" Is so dumb. Not wanting to sleep with a trans doesn't mean I am transphobic by any means. I don't want to sleep with a guy, does that make me a homophobe? No Mostly because of point b. I'm not going to bother engaging with you in any debate. You know my points are vailid, so you're trying to find any loophole. Like the few out of the many born with those conditions. Such as internal genitalia. "Not wanting to sleep with a black person doesn't mean I'm racist by any means. I don't want to sleep with an animal, does that make me racist? No" If you don't want to sleep with a trans person because you believe they are less than women or not women then you are transphobic. In the exact same way that if you didn't want to sleep with a black woman because you believe blacks are subhuman you would be racist. You would have the right to that preference in terms of your right to consent to sex but your preference is not immune from judgement. Kwark, you are never worth debating. I remember all your arguments from the "rape, coercion thread" Whatever it was called. According to you, everyone having sex was raping each other. This thread I am sure will be no different. If you guys think Trans woman, sleeping with men. Is a normal thing, then I don't know what to tell you. And imma just leave this thread now because nothing but dead horses will be beat. You come into here holding your ignorance like a badge of pride, your conclusions already drawn and when confronted with internal logical inconsistencies in your beliefs you immediately leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You're a colossal moron. Science isn't ignorance. I'm sorry I offended you. There is nothing scientific about your view. Science is what you ran scared from. Now leave the topic the way you said you would and fuck off. There is plenty, you however posed OPINIONS. No science, you dumb fuck. Now Kwark, you are the worst mod this site has. You should had your mod status taken many a moon ago. Go fuck yourself. Please put the part where you tell me to fuck off, back in please. Fucking coward mod. User was temp banned for this post.
By the way, the post he quoted there was edited by him. Following his previous "I'm not gonna read what you write etc, I'm gonna leave this topic now" posts I frustratedly posted that he should fuck off or stay and read. The post he actually quoted there is, as far as I remember, an approximation of what I wrote made up by him while entirely missing the point.
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