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On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology?
Why I ask u, did the soviets, or ruling class in a "classfree society", as communism said it should be, live with luxuries that were not allowed for the mere people - not allowed based on ideology I remind you?
When it suits them people don't think all that much of a codex or ideology.
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*hugs the NHS*
I would be dead without it
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On February 25 2013 08:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 07:31 mcc wrote:On February 25 2013 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 05:58 Kyrao wrote: Capitalism is not some sacred infallible law like many of my fellow Americans like to believe. There are certain areas of society in which capitalist theory does not work. Healthcare is one of them. Like many people have said before me, asymmetric information, lack of competition, and price inelasticity of demand prevent a capitalist approach from being at all effective in healthcare.
Those roadblocks could just be removed. The only one which we're stuck with is inelastic demand when it comes to real insurance events (broken limb, cancer, etc.) as you say later on that's where insurance should come in to play. In parts of the US system those roadblocks don't exist and things work fine (ex. laser eye correction or non-regulated drugs) so I'm not sure why that couldn't be extended to many other parts of healthcare. Asymmetric information will also remain. And market mechanisms can work in some parts of medicine, like elective plastic surgery (with exceptions), but not in most of it. Sure, but other markets have plenty of asymmetric information too and they work fine. Systems (competition for one) can be put in place to keep those with more information honest. But competition works only if the consumer has the information. If it is more profitable to be dishonest (mostly is) and consumer does not have enough information competition solves nothing as the competition is moved to whatever PR finds best to work instead of actual medical properties of products.
And that is ignoring that the main issue with healthcare is ethical one. When ethical decisions play a big role, market is quite often incapable of good optimization. Do you want to save most lives/prevent most sufferring or do you want to be most efficient economically ? Those two things do not seem to match too well. US has neither though, due to having crappy hybrid.
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On February 25 2013 07:53 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 07:31 mcc wrote:On February 25 2013 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 05:58 Kyrao wrote: Capitalism is not some sacred infallible law like many of my fellow Americans like to believe. There are certain areas of society in which capitalist theory does not work. Healthcare is one of them. Like many people have said before me, asymmetric information, lack of competition, and price inelasticity of demand prevent a capitalist approach from being at all effective in healthcare.
Those roadblocks could just be removed. The only one which we're stuck with is inelastic demand when it comes to real insurance events (broken limb, cancer, etc.) as you say later on that's where insurance should come in to play. In parts of the US system those roadblocks don't exist and things work fine (ex. laser eye correction or non-regulated drugs) so I'm not sure why that couldn't be extended to many other parts of healthcare. Asymmetric information will also remain. And market mechanisms can work in some parts of medicine, like elective plastic surgery (with exceptions), but not in most of it. Would you really say elective plastic surgery is medicine, though? Well it is, but I understand your point. And that is actually also my point Only things like that can have market mechanisms work well.
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On February 25 2013 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 10:44 sam!zdat wrote: Jonny, how can you possibly say that something is so complex that it can't be understood by a consumer, and then suggest that a market be deregulated, all in the same post? I don't see those aspects as being mutually exclusive. Putting a loaf of bread on the store shelf is extremely complex too (economies of scale to some processes, huge time lags between supply and demand, etc.) but it doesn't mean that I need the government to carefully regulate every step of the process in order to get a fair deal on bread. Government does though, with regulating all the relevant processes to avoid health issues with bread. And we are again at the same point, one of the things governments regulate most are things related to health, in all industries. And in healthcare everything is related to health.
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Regardless of specifics, as Americans, rationalizing the healthcare market will be the one great domestic challenge of our lifetimes, much as ending racism was for the baby boomer generation.
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On February 25 2013 12:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 11:48 Tarot wrote:On February 25 2013 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 10:44 sam!zdat wrote: Jonny, how can you possibly say that something is so complex that it can't be understood by a consumer, and then suggest that a market be deregulated, all in the same post? I don't see those aspects as being mutually exclusive. Putting a loaf of bread on the store shelf is extremely complex too (economies of scale to some processes, huge time lags between supply and demand, etc.) but it doesn't mean that I need the government to carefully regulate every step of the process in order to get a fair deal on bread. Curious how you think the market should be deregulated. Because if I was a medical company, and I know that the Feds are completely out of my hair, I'm just going to straight up dump addictive substances into my drugs. I hear from the tobacco industry that addiction is good for customer loyalty. Deregulated means allowing new entrants to compete on service and price. Deregulated doesn't mean getting rid of health and safety regulations. Ex. Airlines were deregulated. Safety is still regulated by the FAA. Ah ok, so you would not be against having single-payer mandatory insurance, while healthcare providers compete with one another, but are bound by regulations introduced by the state ? That might be workable solution. My main point was single-payer or at leats mandatory insurance. That solves a lot of the ethical issues that market cannot. After that if you have good regulations, the competition can work reasonably well. You would still need state to fund some critical care in places where it is unprofitable (like low population density areas), but that can be funded by selecting the insurance amounts well enough.
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Get rid of insurance Get rid of medical patents
These are my suggestions.
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On February 26 2013 01:38 Lockitupv2 wrote: Get rid of insurance Get rid of medical patents
These are my suggestions.
Getting rid of medical patents is not feasible. Or at least it would require a lot more philanthropists than we currently have.
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On February 23 2013 13:47 Dagan159 wrote: As a Capitalist,
But only until you are in a bad position i bet. No offence to you sir but attitudes like that kill society.
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On February 25 2013 16:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 15:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 14:50 Stratos_speAr wrote: If the real cost of an ambulance ride is $900 changing to a socialized healthcare system won't change that fact.
We all know it isn't, but what you're proposing wouldn't change that price. Sure it would. More suppliers in the market, particularly new entrants would lead to new ways of providing services. It doesn't mean that every ambulance ride in every market would fall in price. But some would, and that would put pressure, over time, throughout the system. We've already been over this. You admitted that it would be ridiculous to try to put competition into emergency medicine, and so that wouldn't be there to drive costs down. Calling 911 and being asked to chose from a list of providers would be stupid, yes. You could still have some competition in the background though. It doesn't really matter, the same principles can apply to things other than ambulance rides.
Show nested quote + Sure, they work much better than a system where an industry can essentially dictate it's own cost structure. That's not saying a whole lot but I'm not arguing it either.
The problem is that you're trying to argue that a market that is unique when compared to the vast majority of other markets can somehow work in the same fashion as these markets and turn out a better product at cheaper prices for the consumer. That's kind of a stretch. Furthermore, You have yet to provide a reason as to why a competitive market would be preferable to socialized healthcare. Healthcare isn't that unique. Lots of industries have unique characteristics or are vital for survival (food, electricity) yet they don't need to be socialized.
There are cases where competitive markets exist in healthcare and quality and cost have been improved or are at least doing just fine (laser eye surgery, retail clinics).
Show nested quote + Some are, but some is not all. You keep going round and round this point. Just because 911 service exists and is a good thing does not justify all the other regulatory baggage that exists. Healthcare is not a this or that thing, parts can be this parts can be that. You can have government regulated universal coverage for emergency care only and leave the rest to a less regulated system if you chose.
Again, unnecessary and convoluted. Why split the system into privatized and socialized? Where is the proof that it will be any good at all? We have plenty of proof that a socialized system can work very well. Burden of proof is on you to show that a market system will actually be a benefit compared to a socialized one. IF I granted that all your theories were correct, of course it would be better than what we have now; almost anything would be. However, we're not looking for "better than now", we're looking for "the best that's reasonably possible". Socialized medicine provides top quality healthcare at cheap prices with little to no drawbacks (should your government actually manage their budget correctly). Furthermore, I think you're underestimating how many patients are "involuntary consumers". Well many "socialized systems" have private elements, so I'm not sure why you're worried about the system being convoluted.
And I think you are singing the praises of "socialized medicine" a bit too loudly here. Yes other countries have better outcomes for a lower price. They also have longer waiting lists. They also have rising costs (just rising slower than the US). The last point is a big stickler - what happens if the US gets "socialized medicine"? Will costs fall or will the current, bloated system become codified into law? Remember, all we can really do is import the payment systems and regulatory regimes - that does nothing for the actual costs.
Any real cost savings will need to happen after when the government starts restricting access and lowering incomes. That will be unpopular. So will it really happen or will we just get more political attack ads of politicians pushing granny off a cliff?
Here in MA we have just about universal coverage (4% uninsured) yet we also have the highest costs in the country. The state is trying to keep costs in check but so far no go. A new reform was passed last year to tackle costs directly but we have to wait a wile to see if it actually works.
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On February 26 2013 01:19 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 12:02 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 11:48 Tarot wrote:On February 25 2013 10:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 10:44 sam!zdat wrote: Jonny, how can you possibly say that something is so complex that it can't be understood by a consumer, and then suggest that a market be deregulated, all in the same post? I don't see those aspects as being mutually exclusive. Putting a loaf of bread on the store shelf is extremely complex too (economies of scale to some processes, huge time lags between supply and demand, etc.) but it doesn't mean that I need the government to carefully regulate every step of the process in order to get a fair deal on bread. Curious how you think the market should be deregulated. Because if I was a medical company, and I know that the Feds are completely out of my hair, I'm just going to straight up dump addictive substances into my drugs. I hear from the tobacco industry that addiction is good for customer loyalty. Deregulated means allowing new entrants to compete on service and price. Deregulated doesn't mean getting rid of health and safety regulations. Ex. Airlines were deregulated. Safety is still regulated by the FAA. Ah ok, so you would not be against having single-payer mandatory insurance, while healthcare providers compete with one another, but are bound by regulations introduced by the state ? That might be workable solution. My main point was single-payer or at leats mandatory insurance. That solves a lot of the ethical issues that market cannot. After that if you have good regulations, the competition can work reasonably well. You would still need state to fund some critical care in places where it is unprofitable (like low population density areas), but that can be funded by selecting the insurance amounts well enough. Yeah, I really don't care how the problems are solved so long as they are solved. Non-universal care (that is, universal beyond the ER) being one of the problems that needs fixing too.
On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Ideology isn't the issue there, bankers simply can't stop a bank run.
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United States41980 Posts
On February 26 2013 01:14 Shady Sands wrote: Regardless of specifics, as Americans, rationalizing the healthcare market will be the one great domestic challenge of our lifetimes, much as ending racism was for the baby boomer generation. I'm glad racism was solved 40 years ago.
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On February 25 2013 23:29 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Why I ask u, did the soviets, or ruling class in a "classfree society", as communism said it should be, live with luxuries that were not allowed for the mere people - not allowed based on ideology I remind you? When it suits them people don't think all that much of a codex or ideology. What makes You think i am a communist?
On February 26 2013 02:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Ideology isn't the issue there, bankers simply can't stop a bank run. How is a "bank run" related to "Socialism for Managers" they are talking about?
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On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Because it's profitable.
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On February 26 2013 03:07 bohus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 23:29 Doublemint wrote:On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Why I ask u, did the soviets, or ruling class in a "classfree society", as communism said it should be, live with luxuries that were not allowed for the mere people - not allowed based on ideology I remind you? When it suits them people don't think all that much of a codex or ideology. What makes You think i am a communist? Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 02:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Ideology isn't the issue there, bankers simply can't stop a bank run. How is a "bank run" related to "Socialism for Managers" they are talking about? It's related to why the bailouts happened.
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On February 26 2013 03:07 bohus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 23:29 Doublemint wrote:On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Why I ask u, did the soviets, or ruling class in a "classfree society", as communism said it should be, live with luxuries that were not allowed for the mere people - not allowed based on ideology I remind you? When it suits them people don't think all that much of a codex or ideology. What makes You think i am a communist?Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 02:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 22:28 bohus wrote:On February 24 2013 20:49 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 20:00 Bill Murray wrote: a lot of people, including a mod i see, are kind of strawmanning here; i feel you're missing his point i see you address that in terms of funds, but that's the purpose of it all - we don't want the money to run out
my real problem with all of this dips into our Capitalist society as a whole. It's ok for the blue collared man to get fucked, and have to mortgage his home, only to have it taken by a bank, but when the bubble bursts on wallstreet... bailout!!!
That isn't Capitalism, it's Socialism, and that's where this country is headed 2nd amendment be damned right now, I'm worried about my 1st. My voice is barely even heard over the convoluted social media with yolosluts trying to put up duckfaces when i do give a damn. I do give a damn. Absolutely correct. It basically is "Socialism for Managers". As soon as this scheme where banks hold the tax payer hostage is not tackled ("Too big to fail, sorry you can't take money from us or you will get hurt too in the process", that's where the main financial problems come from in mere numerical terms. Bailouts, people losing jobs, losing their home, losing their insurance, can't pay their bills and provide a good environment for their children, need assistance from somewhere - most of the time it's the government with a safety net. That's doing huge economic damage. While the Dow hits over 14k again. Something is terribly wrong here. This begs a question. How come the apostles of capitalism, bankers, businessmen, et cetera, are the first ones to betray their own ideology? Ideology isn't the issue there, bankers simply can't stop a bank run. How is a "bank run" related to "Socialism for Managers" they are talking about?
What makes you think I think you are a communist?
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Basic healthcare is not a market good. Here are some people who think so too.
Why markets can’t cure healthcare-Krugman
.........a significant number of Americans believe that the answer to our health care problems — indeed, the only answer — is to rely on the free market. Quite a few seem to believe that this view reflects the lessons of economic theory.
Not so. One of the most influential economic papers of the postwar era was Kenneth Arrow’s Uncertainty and the welfare economics of health care, which demonstrated — decisively, I and many others believe — that health care can’t be marketed like bread or TVs. Let me offer my own version of Arrow’s argument.
There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.
This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.
This problem is made worse by the fact that actually paying for your health care is a loss from an insurers’ point of view — they actually refer to it as “medical costs.” This means both that insurers try to deny as many claims as possible, and that they try to avoid covering people who are actually likely to need care. Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems. And since there’s a widespread sense that our fellow citizens should get the care we need — not everyone agrees, but most do — this means that private insurance basically spends a lot of money on socially destructive activities.
The second thing about health care is that it’s complicated, and you can’t rely on experience or comparison shopping. (“I hear they’ve got a real deal on stents over at St. Mary’s!”) That’s why doctors are supposed to follow an ethical code, why we expect more from them than from bakers or grocery store owners.
You could rely on a health maintenance organization to make the hard choices and do the cost management, and to some extent we do. But HMOs have been highly limited in their ability to achieve cost-effectiveness because people don’t trust them — they’re profit-making institutions, and your treatment is their cost.
Between those two factors, health care just doesn’t work as a standard market story.
All of this doesn’t necessarily mean that socialized medicine, or even single-payer, is the only way to go. There are a number of successful health-care systems, at least as measured by pretty good care much cheaper than here, and they are quite different from each other. There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work. And people who say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence.
Health Care Market Deviations from the Ideal Market
A common argument heard in health care planning and health policy reform debates is that the government should stay out of health care and let the market allocate resources efficiently. It is further argued that government rules and regulations applied in health care markets interfere with proper resource allocation resulting in inefficiency.1 The argument further states that without government interference, the “invisible hand” of the market would allocate resources optimally leading to economic efficiency in health care.
Although interesting, this argument is based on the assumption that health care meets all necessary conditions for an ideal perfect/free market. Unfortunately, this assumption is never articulated explicitly therefore the argument is not fully explored, understood or challenged. It is important to explore fully the argument, the assumptions made about the free market, and the conditions necessary for the “invisible hand” to allocate resources efficiently.2
A market that meets all necessary conditions for efficient resource allocation is an ideal in economic theory, but a rarity in the real world. Markets do fail because necessary conditions for perfect/free markets are rarely met in any industry and least of all in health care.3 When the necessary conditions of the ideal free market are not met, there can be market failures some of which are not easily corrected by the market and therefore require interventions from outside the market.
Another important issue that is also rarely articulated is whether free markets are a desirable feature of a health care system. This issue cannot be easily addressed through economic theory. It is an issue that requires a closer examination of the philosophy behind the foundation of the health care system in any country. It requires an examination of the culture and beliefs of the country about health and health care. Is health care a commodity to be bought and sold for profit, or is it a basic human right that should be accessible to all citizens?
Health Care as a “Market Good”? Appendicitis as a Case Study
Consumer-driven health care has emerged as a new paradigm in allowing patients to have a stronger say in how their health care dollars are spent.1 Patients are encouraged to consider medical care a commodity that can be bought and sold. Yet health care is a unique industry in which many traditional market principles fail. Consumers of health care do not always have good information about their condition and rely on the advice of professionals. Moreover, studies have shown that total costs and charges at different health care facilities vary substantially for what should be similar services.
Basic Health Care Is Not a “Market Good”
We read the article by Hsia et al1 about charges for appendectomy in California hospitals with interest.1 The wide variation in charges was remarkable but not surprising given prior publications.2- 3 Two topics regarding this article are worthy of amplification. First, we assert that the data presented warrant more incisive conclusions. Second, we inquire about further analyses.
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On February 26 2013 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 16:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On February 25 2013 15:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 14:50 Stratos_speAr wrote: If the real cost of an ambulance ride is $900 changing to a socialized healthcare system won't change that fact.
We all know it isn't, but what you're proposing wouldn't change that price. Sure it would. More suppliers in the market, particularly new entrants would lead to new ways of providing services. It doesn't mean that every ambulance ride in every market would fall in price. But some would, and that would put pressure, over time, throughout the system. We've already been over this. You admitted that it would be ridiculous to try to put competition into emergency medicine, and so that wouldn't be there to drive costs down. Calling 911 and being asked to chose from a list of providers would be stupid, yes. You could still have some competition in the background though. It doesn't really matter, the same principles can apply to things other than ambulance rides. Show nested quote + Sure, they work much better than a system where an industry can essentially dictate it's own cost structure. That's not saying a whole lot but I'm not arguing it either.
The problem is that you're trying to argue that a market that is unique when compared to the vast majority of other markets can somehow work in the same fashion as these markets and turn out a better product at cheaper prices for the consumer. That's kind of a stretch. Furthermore, You have yet to provide a reason as to why a competitive market would be preferable to socialized healthcare. Healthcare isn't that unique. Lots of industries have unique characteristics or are vital for survival (food, electricity) yet they don't need to be socialized. There are cases where competitive markets exist in healthcare and quality and cost have been improved or are at least doing just fine (laser eye surgery, retail clinics). Show nested quote + Some are, but some is not all. You keep going round and round this point. Just because 911 service exists and is a good thing does not justify all the other regulatory baggage that exists. Healthcare is not a this or that thing, parts can be this parts can be that. You can have government regulated universal coverage for emergency care only and leave the rest to a less regulated system if you chose.
Again, unnecessary and convoluted. Why split the system into privatized and socialized? Where is the proof that it will be any good at all? We have plenty of proof that a socialized system can work very well. Burden of proof is on you to show that a market system will actually be a benefit compared to a socialized one. IF I granted that all your theories were correct, of course it would be better than what we have now; almost anything would be. However, we're not looking for "better than now", we're looking for "the best that's reasonably possible". Socialized medicine provides top quality healthcare at cheap prices with little to no drawbacks (should your government actually manage their budget correctly). Furthermore, I think you're underestimating how many patients are "involuntary consumers". Well many "socialized systems" have private elements, so I'm not sure why you're worried about the system being convoluted. And I think you are singing the praises of "socialized medicine" a bit too loudly here. Yes other countries have better outcomes for a lower price. They also have longer waiting lists. They also have rising costs (just rising slower than the US). The last point is a big stickler - what happens if the US gets "socialized medicine"? Will costs fall or will the current, bloated system become codified into law? Remember, all we can really do is import the payment systems and regulatory regimes - that does nothing for the actual costs. Any real cost savings will need to happen after when the government starts restricting access and lowering incomes. That will be unpopular. So will it really happen or will we just get more political attack ads of politicians pushing granny off a cliff? Here in MA we have just about universal coverage (4% uninsured) yet we also have the highest costs in the country. The state is trying to keep costs in check but so far no go. A new reform was passed last year to tackle costs directly but we have to wait a wile to see if it actually works.
Couple of notes.
Isn't food heavily, heavily regulated to protect public safety? At least in Canada, it is. I know America likes their milk and beef pumped with steroids and drugs.
You have to compare the idea of socialized medicine to public education. Yes, you can argue that public education isn't perfect, how it's substandard, how it would benefit from competition. There's a VAST amount of room for improvement.
But still -- the decision to make education available to everyone from K to 12 was a revolutionary concept that brought millions and millions of people out of poverty, formed the basis of the middle-class after the industrial revolution and made western nations the greatest economic drivers in the world.
I really think you're underestimating the long term economic and public benefit of socialized medicine, despite its flaws. I would gladly wait for a non-critical procedure or treatment if the cost is zero.
Imagine a world where an entire middle class family doesn't go bankrupt or extreme debt just because one person has bad genes, got injured on the job, got hit by a drunk driver, or just has shitty luck. That's not trivial, that's HUGE.
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On February 26 2013 07:19 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 16:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On February 25 2013 15:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 25 2013 14:50 Stratos_speAr wrote: If the real cost of an ambulance ride is $900 changing to a socialized healthcare system won't change that fact.
We all know it isn't, but what you're proposing wouldn't change that price. Sure it would. More suppliers in the market, particularly new entrants would lead to new ways of providing services. It doesn't mean that every ambulance ride in every market would fall in price. But some would, and that would put pressure, over time, throughout the system. We've already been over this. You admitted that it would be ridiculous to try to put competition into emergency medicine, and so that wouldn't be there to drive costs down. Calling 911 and being asked to chose from a list of providers would be stupid, yes. You could still have some competition in the background though. It doesn't really matter, the same principles can apply to things other than ambulance rides. Sure, they work much better than a system where an industry can essentially dictate it's own cost structure. That's not saying a whole lot but I'm not arguing it either.
The problem is that you're trying to argue that a market that is unique when compared to the vast majority of other markets can somehow work in the same fashion as these markets and turn out a better product at cheaper prices for the consumer. That's kind of a stretch. Furthermore, You have yet to provide a reason as to why a competitive market would be preferable to socialized healthcare. Healthcare isn't that unique. Lots of industries have unique characteristics or are vital for survival (food, electricity) yet they don't need to be socialized. There are cases where competitive markets exist in healthcare and quality and cost have been improved or are at least doing just fine (laser eye surgery, retail clinics). Some are, but some is not all. You keep going round and round this point. Just because 911 service exists and is a good thing does not justify all the other regulatory baggage that exists. Healthcare is not a this or that thing, parts can be this parts can be that. You can have government regulated universal coverage for emergency care only and leave the rest to a less regulated system if you chose.
Again, unnecessary and convoluted. Why split the system into privatized and socialized? Where is the proof that it will be any good at all? We have plenty of proof that a socialized system can work very well. Burden of proof is on you to show that a market system will actually be a benefit compared to a socialized one. IF I granted that all your theories were correct, of course it would be better than what we have now; almost anything would be. However, we're not looking for "better than now", we're looking for "the best that's reasonably possible". Socialized medicine provides top quality healthcare at cheap prices with little to no drawbacks (should your government actually manage their budget correctly). Furthermore, I think you're underestimating how many patients are "involuntary consumers". Well many "socialized systems" have private elements, so I'm not sure why you're worried about the system being convoluted. And I think you are singing the praises of "socialized medicine" a bit too loudly here. Yes other countries have better outcomes for a lower price. They also have longer waiting lists. They also have rising costs (just rising slower than the US). The last point is a big stickler - what happens if the US gets "socialized medicine"? Will costs fall or will the current, bloated system become codified into law? Remember, all we can really do is import the payment systems and regulatory regimes - that does nothing for the actual costs. Any real cost savings will need to happen after when the government starts restricting access and lowering incomes. That will be unpopular. So will it really happen or will we just get more political attack ads of politicians pushing granny off a cliff? Here in MA we have just about universal coverage (4% uninsured) yet we also have the highest costs in the country. The state is trying to keep costs in check but so far no go. A new reform was passed last year to tackle costs directly but we have to wait a wile to see if it actually works. Couple of notes. Isn't food heavily, heavily regulated to protect public safety? At least in Canada, it is. I know America likes their milk and beef pumped with steroids and drugs. You have to compare the idea of socialized medicine to public education. Yes, you can argue that public education isn't perfect, how it's substandard, how it would benefit from competition. There's a VAST amount of room for improvement. But still -- the decision to make education available to everyone from K to 12 was a revolutionary concept that brought millions and millions of people out of poverty, formed the basis of the middle-class after the industrial revolution and made western nations the greatest economic drivers in the world. I really think you're underestimating the long term economic and public benefit of socialized medicine, despite its flaws. I would gladly wait for a non-critical procedure or treatment if the cost is zero. Imagine a world where an entire middle class family doesn't go bankrupt or extreme debt just because one person has bad genes, got injured on the job, got hit by a drunk driver, or just has shitty luck. That's not trivial, that's HUGE. I wasn't criticizing health and safety regulations. Airlines have been deregulated but the FAA still regulates airline safety. The criticism is over anti-competitive regulations.
As for the rest, I'm not associating universal healthcare (or education) with "socialized" healthcare (or education). I have no problem with universal healthcare, but I do have concerns over socialized healthcare (and education) though I'm not totally against it either.
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