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Smarter people more prone to cognitive bias - Page 7

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HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 08:32:21
June 13 2012 08:31 GMT
#121
Without reading the comments, I'd say 5 cents, as:
x + y = 1.1
x = y + 1
y + y + 1 = 1.1
2y + 1 - 1 = 1.1 - 1
2y = 0.1
2y / 2 = 0.1 / 2
y = 0.05
x = 1.05
x + y = 1.05 + 0.05 = 1.1

Edit: Guess great minds think alike :s
Crazy Eddie
Profile Joined July 2011
United States128 Posts
June 13 2012 08:33 GMT
#122
Hmm, so I had a look at the paper (thanks) and it's hard to articulate how much of a mess this seems to be. The authors write like vicious weasels and I have never seen a more potentially biased paper in any respectable publication.

The selection of data presented gives the impression of a really suspect pattern of entirely avoiding any results that could possibly be harmful to the authors' conclusion. The bit on the second hastily addressed study lacks what would seem to be very necessary and relevant discussion on why and how the participants differ so much from the participants of the first study of all college students, and avoids the majority of the "bias questions" the authors purport to study in the first place.

The first thing I took away, and cannot stress enough, is how subpar the students involved in the study are. To anyone who wasn't sure or thought this was an "ivy-league" school or anything similar - rest assured it's not. It stands out glaringly, to many Americans that would be as soon as one learns this was done at JMU, but the authors mention the necessary statistics regardless. The participants in the study reported SAT scores close to the institution means - 1140 math+reading total. For those not familiar with the SAT, that's completely unimpressive compared to many, many other American universities. JMU students are by and large the rejects of any more prestigious universities of the several nearby states. These are community college level students, especially as the majority of students in the study were freshmen (first year at the university, and as the authors report, median age arond 19).

Likewise the results on the CRT, the three trick-sounding questions which everyone is making a big deal about, are abysmal for these participants. The authors report a mean of 0.79, with 50% or 241 of the participants getting none correct, (lol) and only 27 or 5.6% getting all 3 correct. This is an extremely poor performance compared to other students at other universities on this same CRT test from previous studies (some probably referenced by authors in this paper).

The first objection I'd raise is the worry that the raw number of students who had high performance on any cognitive metric is too small a sample size. There's no data on the real distribution of SAT scores - whether any participants at all had scores high enough they would be good at a more prestigious university - and only 27 total individuals is of course worrisome for the CRT results. The other cognitive measures were not objective, better-or-worse measures of intelligence or cognition such that they could be used in comparisons towards the authors' overall thesis. Considering individuals had to be split into experimental groups for the bias measures, having an insufficient number of individuals with high performance on the cognitive measures could result in no statistical significance.

What's ridiculously annoying if not scandalous, is that authors did not give any data, NO DATA AT ALL, on the relationship between the students' CRT score and performance on their full set of "bias measures." Performance on the CRT was found to be positively correlated with scores on the other cognitive measures and self-reported test scores, at least that's consistent with other studies. However, to draw their headline conclusions, they only found a lack of correlation between the "bias measures" tested to the bias-blind spot generated from self reports and self-reported SAT scores. The correlations to other cognitive measures were also not tabled. This is questionable in and of itself, and is ridiculous given the the authors' report of "Study 2" where the only data they present on a different group of internet-survey answerers is the CRT results. (Also, the internet survey folks perform far better than the pathetic JMU students on the CRT)

It's worth summarizing one of the bias questions examined to see the obvious, intuitive objections any reasonable person would raise to the specifics of this study. Glossing over the specifics to present final conclusions based on a few statistical correlations and omitting others is not acceptable.

So this one bias question on "anchoring" was based around having participants guess how tall the tallest trees in the world are. The experiment for bias was performed by "framing" the question in two ways (two experimental groups), such as the suggestion the tree was 1000 feet tall, versus framing with a smaller number - 85. That's a tree. A tree. The result for the one group was a mean of guessing 884 ft tall with a standard deviation of 572, and to no real surprise the group framed with the smaller number gave much smaller answers, and presumably almost none of them giving objectively idiotic answers. (As expected the authors found the presence of bias on all the bias measures they tested, consistent with previous studies, for the set of participants as a whole. Nothing interesting there. Remember the whole point of the authors' conclusion is whether the "smarter" participants had less bias than the others.) It's also very annoying that, while "base rate" bias and other related biases are supposedly studied in other questions, the attempt to study a DIFFERENT BIAS is done with an absolutely awful experimental question that mixes in these biases as well. But there's nothing to be said for people who think a tree is over a thousand feet tall. Complete morons.

I really wish the authors had actually provided the data, and we could see whether the handful of students who got all 3 CRT questions correct gave such ridiculous answers on several of the bias questions. There were so few of these students amongst the throng of JMU morons (only 27 total) that the sample size might still not be enough, but it's worth knowing. The authors only report a small correlation between overall SAT scores and bias on this question, as with others, but find it's not significant, which still could be relatively meaningless given the awful SAT scores of all participants all around. If the students who got all of the CRT questions correct, also gave answers such as > 1000 ft trees the same as their peers, then at least the authors are being honest in presenting the results they obtained. Somehow I doubt that, I suspect their performance on the bias questions was much better and they were justified in labeling their peers as morons. (After all, the answer to whether the median JMU student is more susceptible than average to cognitive biases should be very high. It's true as the base rate, y'know)
When the scv came down to a patch of new resources without a destructable rock in sight, he proclaimed, "What possibilities!"
Ketch
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands7285 Posts
June 13 2012 08:34 GMT
#123
On June 13 2012 13:49 HaNdFisH wrote:
Seems the study was done just on Psychology students, would have been interesting to see a cross-discipline one.

Show nested quote +

Method
Participants. The participants were 482 undergraduate students
(122 men, 360 women) from a medium-sized, eastern university
recruited through an introductory psychology subject pool.


Oh.... mainly women... they are bad at math right? Cognitive bias, I know
Nyarly
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1030 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 08:43:32
June 13 2012 08:35 GMT
#124
"Smarter people more pron..."

Very missleading title cut :p


OT : i tend to think that people ask me dumb questions, so i don't really care enough to take the time to answer it correctly.
I would have say 10 cent, but i didn't do any calculation, just the first thing that came to my mind.
And i already knew the trick for the lily pads.
Poffel
Profile Joined March 2011
471 Posts
June 13 2012 08:36 GMT
#125
On June 13 2012 17:33 Crazy Eddie wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm, so I had a look at the paper (thanks) and it's hard to articulate how much of a mess this seems to be. The authors write like vicious weasels and I have never seen a more potentially biased paper in any respectable publication.

The selection of data presented gives the impression of a really suspect pattern of entirely avoiding any results that could possibly be harmful to the authors' conclusion. The bit on the second hastily addressed study lacks what would seem to be very necessary and relevant discussion on why and how the participants differ so much from the participants of the first study of all college students, and avoids the majority of the "bias questions" the authors purport to study in the first place.

The first thing I took away, and cannot stress enough, is how subpar the students involved in the study are. To anyone who wasn't sure or thought this was an "ivy-league" school or anything similar - rest assured it's not. It stands out glaringly, to many Americans that would be as soon as one learns this was done at JMU, but the authors mention the necessary statistics regardless. The participants in the study reported SAT scores close to the institution means - 1140 math+reading total. For those not familiar with the SAT, that's completely unimpressive compared to many, many other American universities. JMU students are by and large the rejects of any more prestigious universities of the several nearby states. These are community college level students, especially as the majority of students in the study were freshmen (first year at the university, and as the authors report, median age arond 19).

Likewise the results on the CRT, the three trick-sounding questions which everyone is making a big deal about, are abysmal for these participants. The authors report a mean of 0.79, with 50% or 241 of the participants getting none correct, (lol) and only 27 or 5.6% getting all 3 correct. This is an extremely poor performance compared to other students at other universities on this same CRT test from previous studies (some probably referenced by authors in this paper).

The first objection I'd raise is the worry that the raw number of students who had high performance on any cognitive metric is too small a sample size. There's no data on the real distribution of SAT scores - whether any participants at all had scores high enough they would be good at a more prestigious university - and only 27 total individuals is of course worrisome for the CRT results. The other cognitive measures were not objective, better-or-worse measures of intelligence or cognition such that they could be used in comparisons towards the authors' overall thesis. Considering individuals had to be split into experimental groups for the bias measures, having an insufficient number of individuals with high performance on the cognitive measures could result in no statistical significance.

What's ridiculously annoying if not scandalous, is that authors did not give any data, NO DATA AT ALL, on the relationship between the students' CRT score and performance on their full set of "bias measures." Performance on the CRT was found to be positively correlated with scores on the other cognitive measures and self-reported test scores, at least that's consistent with other studies. However, to draw their headline conclusions, they only found a lack of correlation between the "bias measures" tested to the bias-blind spot generated from self reports and self-reported SAT scores. The correlations to other cognitive measures were also not tabled. This is questionable in and of itself, and is ridiculous given the the authors' report of "Study 2" where the only data they present on a different group of internet-survey answerers is the CRT results. (Also, the internet survey folks perform far better than the pathetic JMU students on the CRT)

It's worth summarizing one of the bias questions examined to see the obvious, intuitive objections any reasonable person would raise to the specifics of this study. Glossing over the specifics to present final conclusions based on a few statistical correlations and omitting others is not acceptable.

So this one bias question on "anchoring" was based around having participants guess how tall the tallest trees in the world are. The experiment for bias was performed by "framing" the question in two ways (two experimental groups), such as the suggestion the tree was 1000 feet tall, versus framing with a smaller number - 85. That's a tree. A tree. The result for the one group was a mean of guessing 884 ft tall with a standard deviation of 572, and to no real surprise the group framed with the smaller number gave much smaller answers, and presumably almost none of them giving objectively idiotic answers. (As expected the authors found the presence of bias on all the bias measures they tested, consistent with previous studies, for the set of participants as a whole. Nothing interesting there. Remember the whole point of the authors' conclusion is whether the "smarter" participants had less bias than the others.) It's also very annoying that, while "base rate" bias and other related biases are supposedly studied in other questions, the attempt to study a DIFFERENT BIAS is done with an absolutely awful experimental question that mixes in these biases as well. But there's nothing to be said for people who think a tree is over a thousand feet tall. Complete morons.

I really wish the authors had actually provided the data, and we could see whether the handful of students who got all 3 CRT questions correct gave such ridiculous answers on several of the bias questions. There were so few of these students amongst the throng of JMU morons (only 27 total) that the sample size might still not be enough, but it's worth knowing. The authors only report a small correlation between overall SAT scores and bias on this question, as with others, but find it's not significant, which still could be relatively meaningless given the awful SAT scores of all participants all around. If the students who got all of the CRT questions correct, also gave answers such as > 1000 ft trees the same as their peers, then at least the authors are being honest in presenting the results they obtained. Somehow I doubt that, I suspect their performance on the bias questions was much better and they were justified in labeling their peers as morons. (After all, the answer to whether the median JMU student is more susceptible than average to cognitive biases should be very high. It's true as the base rate, y'know)

So I take it that you're suggesting that the authors are brilliant, according to their own results?
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 08:40:06
June 13 2012 08:36 GMT
#126
If the bat and the ball is 1 dollar and 10 cents and the ball costs 1 dollar more than the bat then the ball must cost 1.05 and the bat 0.5 answer is 0.5 since 1.05-0.5 = 1 dollar.

EDIT: I totally screwed up everything and its obvious I did not understand the question since I took it in the wrong order and so forth, yet I got the correct answer, god I'm retarded. Then again they are right, stupid people really seem to answer the question without any problem

EDIT2: There are psychology classes at my university which requires zero math skills if you want to attend. So it could be that the people they used were idiots when it came to math.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
Isualin
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 08:47:52
June 13 2012 08:37 GMT
#127
i guess i am pretty smart* because i answered both lilypad and bat questions correct. but i think if you are in math for some reason(for me its comp.sci) answering them correct at the first try is quite possible.
edit:i got it wrong the first time
| INnoVation | The literal god TY | ByuNjwa | LRSL when? |
Wineandbread
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2065 Posts
June 13 2012 08:40 GMT
#128
From a sporadic standpoint, my mind first came up with 10 cents. Took a minute to reevaluate and came up with 5 cents.
(I didn't give myself enough time to do the lilypad problem, although I suppose spontaneously, I just divided the days in half before giving myself time to actually think about it and come up with an answer)

But reading the article itself introduces obvious bias and most likely results in many people rethinking their initial answer. I don't think asking the question right after allowing people to read an article that would basically challenge their initial beliefs is really... anything.

Nonetheless, polls are fun to make :D

Poll: What did you answer for the ball and bat question?

5 cents (11)
 
73%

10 cents (4)
 
27%

Other (0)
 
0%

15 total votes

Your vote: What did you answer for the ball and bat question?

(Vote): 10 cents
(Vote): 5 cents
(Vote): Other



IshinShishi
Profile Joined April 2012
Japan6156 Posts
June 13 2012 08:42 GMT
#129
Got both right, second one took a little while. My bias says that this doesn't seem right and further than that it's most surely not reliable, how does one even define who is intelligent and who isn't?It's not that simple.
So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
June 13 2012 08:42 GMT
#130
Well, I know that when something doesn't seem to require a lot of thoughts, i'll answer immediatly, most of the time i'll get it right because i'm a fucking badass (in maths) but I always assume that there is no traps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
AmericanUmlaut
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2597 Posts
June 13 2012 08:45 GMT
#131
Five cents is correct, but asking for "spontaneous" answers is a bit silly, since the question is intentionally written to create an incorrect intuitive response. My "sponteneous" answer was 10 cents, as it probably is for most people, then I added 10 cents and $1.10, realized the answer was wrong, and fixed it.

The lilly pad question I got right intuitively, but I'm a maths/comp sci guy, so I've been dealing with concepts like exponential growth for long enough that they make intuitive sense to me, which I don't think is probably typical of people who don't deal with problems like that on a regular basis.
The frumious Bandersnatch
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
June 13 2012 08:51 GMT
#132
It should have been done in sociology, because it's part of the discipline (well for a certain school specifically) that you have to analyse your own view on your subject, why you take it, how you view it, in order to break with this cognitive bias we all have and study scientifically the subject in question.

Now with this, it almost defend the idea that breaking with prenotions is impossible ?
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Kyrillion
Profile Joined August 2011
Russian Federation748 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 09:03:42
June 13 2012 09:01 GMT
#133

And here’s the upsetting punch line: intelligence seems to make things worse. The scientists gave the students four measures of “cognitive sophistication.” As they report in the paper, all four of the measures showed positive correlations, “indicating that more cognitively sophisticated participants showed larger bias blind spots.”


I am not sure what you exactly mean by that and I won't waste any time reading a psychology paper but if you're trying to have me believe smart people are more inclined to answer wrongly to questions like the bat and the ball, or the nenuphar, or the frog climbing up a well, than the average person in the population, you'll be hard-pressed. Ask those questions to the average person and they'll fail to nearly all of them. So how can it be worse with the smarter ones ? (Yes, yes, this is typically a hyper-biased reaction, still I had the correct answers).
many years ago, more than fifty per cent of students at Harvard, Princeton, and M.I.T. gave the incorrect answer to the bat-and-ball question. (See question below.)


I take it the test was lead on the students as a whole. What guarantee do I have most students in those colleges are smart ? I have no doubt all students in physics and math in Harvard and Princeton answered correctly, and all students in the M.I.T. ; now if one mixes their results with those of biology, sociology or law students, what does one expect if not a completely worthless conclusion ?

Edit : I sense a strong bias in the poll above ; I don't remember the name, but you see the one.
If you seek well, you shall find.
Surgical_Strike
Profile Joined April 2012
United States72 Posts
June 13 2012 09:01 GMT
#134
5 cents... after a split second of thought... and the first question was blatantly obvious without thought to me... I have a IQ of around 140 so I do not get what exactly is being said... was I supposed to get these "bias" questions wrong?
Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.
CaptainAmerica
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States89 Posts
June 13 2012 09:07 GMT
#135
to know thyself requires great wisdom and few have such good fortune. it is better not to seek knowledge of oneself, but understanding of the universe as it exists. when you stop seeing yourself as a wholly separate entity, then may you begin, but never may you stop for there is no end.
Give Credit Where It's Due
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
June 13 2012 09:09 GMT
#136
It makes sense for "smarter" people to make mistakes, since they think more quickly.
However, when you get to real top smarts, these are people who learned, over time, due to making these shortcuts too many times, to stop and think.
Svenny90
Profile Joined May 2012
21 Posts
June 13 2012 09:15 GMT
#137


BAT AND BALL QUESTION
(Please reply with your answer, and please answer as spontaneously as possible.)
A bat and ball cost a dollar and ten cents. The bat costs a dollar more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?




x = prize of the bat
y = prize of the ball

System of two equations:

x + y = 1.1
y - x = -1

not even high school level...
CatNzHat
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1599 Posts
June 13 2012 09:18 GMT
#138
5 cents, interesting question though, could see where people would just go 110=100=10
IshinShishi
Profile Joined April 2012
Japan6156 Posts
June 13 2012 09:19 GMT
#139
On June 13 2012 18:01 Surgical_Strike wrote:
5 cents... after a split second of thought... and the first question was blatantly obvious without thought to me... I have a IQ of around 140 so I do not get what exactly is being said... was I supposed to get these "bias" questions wrong?
The irony.Followed by shakespeare, thread is golden.
So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-13 09:27:53
June 13 2012 09:25 GMT
#140
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 13 2012 17:33 Crazy Eddie wrote:
Hmm, so I had a look at the paper (thanks) and it's hard to articulate how much of a mess this seems to be. The authors write like vicious weasels and I have never seen a more potentially biased paper in any respectable publication.

The selection of data presented gives the impression of a really suspect pattern of entirely avoiding any results that could possibly be harmful to the authors' conclusion. The bit on the second hastily addressed study lacks what would seem to be very necessary and relevant discussion on why and how the participants differ so much from the participants of the first study of all college students, and avoids the majority of the "bias questions" the authors purport to study in the first place.

The first thing I took away, and cannot stress enough, is how subpar the students involved in the study are. To anyone who wasn't sure or thought this was an "ivy-league" school or anything similar - rest assured it's not. It stands out glaringly, to many Americans that would be as soon as one learns this was done at JMU, but the authors mention the necessary statistics regardless. The participants in the study reported SAT scores close to the institution means - 1140 math+reading total. For those not familiar with the SAT, that's completely unimpressive compared to many, many other American universities. JMU students are by and large the rejects of any more prestigious universities of the several nearby states. These are community college level students, especially as the majority of students in the study were freshmen (first year at the university, and as the authors report, median age arond 19).

Likewise the results on the CRT, the three trick-sounding questions which everyone is making a big deal about, are abysmal for these participants. The authors report a mean of 0.79, with 50% or 241 of the participants getting none correct, (lol) and only 27 or 5.6% getting all 3 correct. This is an extremely poor performance compared to other students at other universities on this same CRT test from previous studies (some probably referenced by authors in this paper).

The first objection I'd raise is the worry that the raw number of students who had high performance on any cognitive metric is too small a sample size. There's no data on the real distribution of SAT scores - whether any participants at all had scores high enough they would be good at a more prestigious university - and only 27 total individuals is of course worrisome for the CRT results. The other cognitive measures were not objective, better-or-worse measures of intelligence or cognition such that they could be used in comparisons towards the authors' overall thesis. Considering individuals had to be split into experimental groups for the bias measures, having an insufficient number of individuals with high performance on the cognitive measures could result in no statistical significance.

What's ridiculously annoying if not scandalous, is that authors did not give any data, NO DATA AT ALL, on the relationship between the students' CRT score and performance on their full set of "bias measures." Performance on the CRT was found to be positively correlated with scores on the other cognitive measures and self-reported test scores, at least that's consistent with other studies. However, to draw their headline conclusions, they only found a lack of correlation between the "bias measures" tested to the bias-blind spot generated from self reports and self-reported SAT scores. The correlations to other cognitive measures were also not tabled. This is questionable in and of itself, and is ridiculous given the the authors' report of "Study 2" where the only data they present on a different group of internet-survey answerers is the CRT results. (Also, the internet survey folks perform far better than the pathetic JMU students on the CRT)

It's worth summarizing one of the bias questions examined to see the obvious, intuitive objections any reasonable person would raise to the specifics of this study. Glossing over the specifics to present final conclusions based on a few statistical correlations and omitting others is not acceptable.

So this one bias question on "anchoring" was based around having participants guess how tall the tallest trees in the world are. The experiment for bias was performed by "framing" the question in two ways (two experimental groups), such as the suggestion the tree was 1000 feet tall, versus framing with a smaller number - 85. That's a tree. A tree. The result for the one group was a mean of guessing 884 ft tall with a standard deviation of 572, and to no real surprise the group framed with the smaller number gave much smaller answers, and presumably almost none of them giving objectively idiotic answers. (As expected the authors found the presence of bias on all the bias measures they tested, consistent with previous studies, for the set of participants as a whole. Nothing interesting there. Remember the whole point of the authors' conclusion is whether the "smarter" participants had less bias than the others.) It's also very annoying that, while "base rate" bias and other related biases are supposedly studied in other questions, the attempt to study a DIFFERENT BIAS is done with an absolutely awful experimental question that mixes in these biases as well. But there's nothing to be said for people who think a tree is over a thousand feet tall. Complete morons.

I really wish the authors had actually provided the data, and we could see whether the handful of students who got all 3 CRT questions correct gave such ridiculous answers on several of the bias questions. There were so few of these students amongst the throng of JMU morons (only 27 total) that the sample size might still not be enough, but it's worth knowing. The authors only report a small correlation between overall SAT scores and bias on this question, as with others, but find it's not significant, which still could be relatively meaningless given the awful SAT scores of all participants all around. If the students who got all of the CRT questions correct, also gave answers such as > 1000 ft trees the same as their peers, then at least the authors are being honest in presenting the results they obtained. Somehow I doubt that, I suspect their performance on the bias questions was much better and they were justified in labeling their peers as morons. (After all, the answer to whether the median JMU student is more susceptible than average to cognitive biases should be very high. It's true as the base rate, y'know)


Wtf.. why are these "complete morons' " paper not peer reviewed or something before it got published? Thanks for the info btw.

And also why are these people (people like these)still having their jobs? Social science is already so "unconcrete" as it is, there is no need for people to screw things up even more.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
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