|
ten cents ... right? the framing of this question is freaking me out.
Honestly, I think it has more to do with 'priming' and familiarity with a certain kind of problem, more than it has to do with a specific discipline.
For example, I'm sure an English major would struggle with Scrabble or a Crossword if they never played/solved one before.
I guess I'm saying I want a second chance to redeem myself LOL.
It is an honest answer that is the best answer in this case. My mind wanted to say a dollar for one, ten cents for the other until I forced myself out of it a whole 30-40 seconds later. And this is KNOWING there's funny business involved, not some random test administered to 4th graders. And MIT, Harvard, and Princeton students verify that intelligence has nothing to do with it (or, it does, but its a hindrance rather than a help). Let's elect the dumbest candidate to the highest offices in government so as to limit the vulnerability to cognitive bias!
I'd like to see more experiments designed with these in mind to really narrow down the causes and expand the implications. For now, I'll throw the bat and ball into that lake filled with lily pads and wager that I'm down a dollar five. Or ... ... (Haha)
|
I got 47 and 0.05 for the 2 questions... got a 740/800 on SAT but an 1850 overall... am i uber genius?
|
5 cents, didn't take longer than 1 second. Maybe I've seen a similar question before? I don't know, but I think a lot of this is how fluent you are with numbers. Which just takes a lot of practice. I think a cashier (not regarded as an intelligent job) could do this as well as a computer/math programmer.
|
On June 13 2012 17:33 Crazy Eddie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, so I had a look at the paper (thanks) and it's hard to articulate how much of a mess this seems to be. The authors write like vicious weasels and I have never seen a more potentially biased paper in any respectable publication.
The selection of data presented gives the impression of a really suspect pattern of entirely avoiding any results that could possibly be harmful to the authors' conclusion. The bit on the second hastily addressed study lacks what would seem to be very necessary and relevant discussion on why and how the participants differ so much from the participants of the first study of all college students, and avoids the majority of the "bias questions" the authors purport to study in the first place.
The first thing I took away, and cannot stress enough, is how subpar the students involved in the study are. To anyone who wasn't sure or thought this was an "ivy-league" school or anything similar - rest assured it's not. It stands out glaringly, to many Americans that would be as soon as one learns this was done at JMU, but the authors mention the necessary statistics regardless. The participants in the study reported SAT scores close to the institution means - 1140 math+reading total. For those not familiar with the SAT, that's completely unimpressive compared to many, many other American universities. JMU students are by and large the rejects of any more prestigious universities of the several nearby states. These are community college level students, especially as the majority of students in the study were freshmen (first year at the university, and as the authors report, median age arond 19).
Likewise the results on the CRT, the three trick-sounding questions which everyone is making a big deal about, are abysmal for these participants. The authors report a mean of 0.79, with 50% or 241 of the participants getting none correct, (lol) and only 27 or 5.6% getting all 3 correct. This is an extremely poor performance compared to other students at other universities on this same CRT test from previous studies (some probably referenced by authors in this paper).
The first objection I'd raise is the worry that the raw number of students who had high performance on any cognitive metric is too small a sample size. There's no data on the real distribution of SAT scores - whether any participants at all had scores high enough they would be good at a more prestigious university - and only 27 total individuals is of course worrisome for the CRT results. The other cognitive measures were not objective, better-or-worse measures of intelligence or cognition such that they could be used in comparisons towards the authors' overall thesis. Considering individuals had to be split into experimental groups for the bias measures, having an insufficient number of individuals with high performance on the cognitive measures could result in no statistical significance.
What's ridiculously annoying if not scandalous, is that authors did not give any data, NO DATA AT ALL, on the relationship between the students' CRT score and performance on their full set of "bias measures." Performance on the CRT was found to be positively correlated with scores on the other cognitive measures and self-reported test scores, at least that's consistent with other studies. However, to draw their headline conclusions, they only found a lack of correlation between the "bias measures" tested to the bias-blind spot generated from self reports and self-reported SAT scores. The correlations to other cognitive measures were also not tabled. This is questionable in and of itself, and is ridiculous given the the authors' report of "Study 2" where the only data they present on a different group of internet-survey answerers is the CRT results. (Also, the internet survey folks perform far better than the pathetic JMU students on the CRT)
It's worth summarizing one of the bias questions examined to see the obvious, intuitive objections any reasonable person would raise to the specifics of this study. Glossing over the specifics to present final conclusions based on a few statistical correlations and omitting others is not acceptable.
So this one bias question on "anchoring" was based around having participants guess how tall the tallest trees in the world are. The experiment for bias was performed by "framing" the question in two ways (two experimental groups), such as the suggestion the tree was 1000 feet tall, versus framing with a smaller number - 85. That's a tree. A tree. The result for the one group was a mean of guessing 884 ft tall with a standard deviation of 572, and to no real surprise the group framed with the smaller number gave much smaller answers, and presumably almost none of them giving objectively idiotic answers. (As expected the authors found the presence of bias on all the bias measures they tested, consistent with previous studies, for the set of participants as a whole. Nothing interesting there. Remember the whole point of the authors' conclusion is whether the "smarter" participants had less bias than the others.) It's also very annoying that, while "base rate" bias and other related biases are supposedly studied in other questions, the attempt to study a DIFFERENT BIAS is done with an absolutely awful experimental question that mixes in these biases as well. But there's nothing to be said for people who think a tree is over a thousand feet tall. Complete morons.
I really wish the authors had actually provided the data, and we could see whether the handful of students who got all 3 CRT questions correct gave such ridiculous answers on several of the bias questions. There were so few of these students amongst the throng of JMU morons (only 27 total) that the sample size might still not be enough, but it's worth knowing. The authors only report a small correlation between overall SAT scores and bias on this question, as with others, but find it's not significant, which still could be relatively meaningless given the awful SAT scores of all participants all around. If the students who got all of the CRT questions correct, also gave answers such as > 1000 ft trees the same as their peers, then at least the authors are being honest in presenting the results they obtained. Somehow I doubt that, I suspect their performance on the bias questions was much better and they were justified in labeling their peers as morons. (After all, the answer to whether the median JMU student is more susceptible than average to cognitive biases should be very high. It's true as the base rate, y'know) Thanks for reading the study in detail and summarizing it here. It puts the result into perspective, even though being blind to one's own bias is quite typical for smart people, at least in my experience.
|
Actually I'd prefer to put it one way that I think is easily agreeable.
If someone can't get the right answer or understand why he was wrong fast enough, he's probably just stupid If someone thinks that former person is smart, he's probably stupid.
And most of all: If an "intelligent" person is completely blind to his own bias (even after proven wrong), he'd most definitely be lacking a certain type of intelligence.
|
Doesn't this just say that educated/intelligent (or whatever) people should stay sharp, or else one could fall in obvioius traps?
I feel that these kinds of 'logical' flaws are one of the most dangerous traps there are. Even the argument 'i was not interested in the answer' falls into this trap, only indirectly. Laziness in thought (in the direct or indirect way) will lead to weird conclusions.
(this post has actually nothing to do with the article, in hindsight.. :$)
|
Russian Federation748 Posts
By the way, the story of the ball and the bat may be the most well-known version in the US, but the one I've always heard involves two persons, let's say Savior and Nada :
Nada has ten dollars and Savior has eight. How much does Nada have to give Savior so they have the same sum ? Yeah...
|
Well, I wouldn't say that smart people are completely unaware of their own bias. Sure, their intuition may be just as bad as anyone else's and trusting their instincts may lead them to incorrect answers. But after a while you learn that the logical part of your brain is a whole lot faster than the part that does the actual math. (I know, in primary school my math teacher called my parents in because I had horrible math results while simultaneously winning math contests. I just wasn't interested in counting out the results because in my head I was already a bunch of steps ahead with the "stupidly easy" math test problems. They bored me to tears and I just couldn't focus on adding two and two together properly). At uni I solved the problem by putting literally everything into a calculator and forcing myself not to take shortcuts when writing down the answers. I still have the urge to skip the trivial parts, but once you burn yourself often enough, you're bound to learn. And for this exact reason, smart people that actually solve math problems often enough, won't get caught offguard by simple questions like these.
Edit: Also, what kind of intelligent people are we talking about? One of the smartest people I've ever known was a history teacher at my highschool who was a complete tool at math. He'd sooner hold a two hour presentation on any topic of your choice than solve any of the problems above correctly.
|
Meh, there's several kinds of intellegence. People are strong about one or more things and weak on others (realizing bias?). For example, I suck at math. Big time. Poor me.
All kinds of bias is typical: the academic world is what it is. Even this study probably have some bias (meh).
Well, knowing a lot about stuff or having a pratical skill is not the same as self-awareness, mastering yourself and having good common sense. Developing the ability to think in different perspectives is the hardest thing ever... The mind apparently wants to draw everything in a stable and secure base...
- After all, skill developing is shaping your instincts to work the best they can in a certain way. A habit develops ... So... Yeah... That's normal if you want to master something. Habits of practice -> skill -> certain bias... -> or the habits of thinking or doing in a certain way, of course....
Doesn't mean you're stuck in it...
|
People who score higher on SAT does not always equall smarter people. Article is too short and does not offer any usefull information. Also, most likely, there is only a certain "range" where this statement stands true, because the question you gave as example can not trick anyone who is told that he might think of a wrong answer at first (anyone that can be considered smart that is).
1. Only one way of measuring how "smart" someone is 2. Unknown range of intelligence.
This article says nothing.
We have always assumed that homo sapiens are rational.
Speak for yourself. Science is well aware of the fact that we're just animals.
|
1 dollar and 5 cents, 5 cents, right? I accidently read the first post which said 1 dollar and 10 cents but that doesn't work. I have a hard time believing people who don't understand the way doubling works are considered "more intelligent" though.
|
It took me 3 hours to figure out why the ball costs 5c lol, because this is how it played out in my mind:
Me: I would like a ball please Cashier: ok, that will be 10c please *I hand over 10c* me: actually, I would like a bat as well please Cashier: ok, that will be $1 more. *I hand over $1* total paid: $1.10
but in reality its:
Me: I would like a ball please Cashier: ok, that will be 5c please *I hand over 5c* Me: actually, can I have a bat instead of the ball please Cashier: ok, that will be $1 more *I hand over $1, cashier replaces ball with bat* Me: sorry to mess you around, I think I do need the ball as well please Cashier ok, that will be another 5c *I hand over 5c* Total paid: $1.10
hope that helps someone else understand why the ball costs 5c
|
lol i didnt think there would be people that dont get this^
|
On June 13 2012 19:46 Sparksfly wrote:It took me 3 hours to figure out why the ball costs 5c lol, because this is how it played out in my mind: Me: I would like a ball please Cashier: ok, that will be 10c please *I hand over 10c* me: actually, I would like a bat as well please Cashier: ok, that will be $1 more. *I hand over $1* total paid: $1.10 but in reality its: Me: I would like a ball please Cashier: ok, that will be 5c please *I hand over 5c* Me: actually, can I have a bat instead of the ball please Cashier: ok, that will be $1 more*I hand over $1, cashier replaces ball with bat* Me: sorry to mess you around, I think I do need the ball as well please Cashier ok, that will be another 5c *I hand over 5c* Total paid: $1.10 hope that helps someone else understand why the ball costs 5c 
If you can't work it out intutively surely you can break it down into a simple simultaneous equation (I didn't need to do this for this problem)
x = bat y = ball Find y y + 100 = x ("The bat costs 1 dollar more than the ball") x+y = 110 ("The bat and th ball costs 1 doller, 10 cents") y + 100 + y = 110 2 y + 100 = 110 2y = 10 y = 5.
I actually realize you can do most of these awkwardly written questions and break them into simul eqns by reading the problems in paper years ago. Maths is a useful tool for these kinds of things folks, no need to spend 3 hours confusing yourself constantly with English and wording.
|
5 cents.
Didn't need math or anything, obviously saw it was a trick question, and just played it out in my head. Does that mean I'm not very smart? o_O
Catch 22 lol
If you get it right, you are dumb.
If you get it wrong, you are dumb.
|
On June 13 2012 13:19 Galaxy1again wrote: Asking ambiguous questions with poor punctuation doesn't make intelligent people unintelligent.
qft
when you are aware of trickery in sentence phrasing, it may take 10 second longer just long enough till you realize where the catch actually is in the sentence
other than that, problem solving remains the same, and intelligent person will probably always have faster results than an average one (which may even not get it right)
studies that make false assumptions based on collected data and exclude everything that could contradict their results really get on my nerves, so many of them these days
|
I advice you all to read Thinking fast and slow by Daniel Kahneman.
|
Further, we found that none of these bias blind spots were attenuated by measures of cognitive sophistication such as cognitive ability or thinking dispositions related to bias. If anything, a larger bias blind spot was associated with higher cognitive ability
Method
Participants. The participants were 482 undergraduate students (122 men, 360 women) from a medium-sized, eastern university recruited through an introductory psychology subject pool.
lol
|
This was discouraging.. My brain just announces TEN CENTS instantly.. Came up with 5 after actually calculating though, hate questions like this =p
|
I like how the thread title says "Smarter people more pron…" on the TL frontpage. ;..;
|
|
|
|
|
|