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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:42 DeliCiousVP wrote: Offer food and shelter in exchange for the weapons hold peaceful discussions in the squares where everyone can speak out without fear of persecution. Sounds great. I am honestly willing to buy you a ticked to North Korea to do just that. | ||
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diggurd
Norway346 Posts
DeliCiousVP im with you my sweet brother. im norwegian, we're almost there guys. i get everything for free, and i still want to do my share for the world. imagine that!? | ||
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:40 Goozen wrote: Dose it also do the dishes? How exactly will this end war and all the religious conflicts? enlighten us. Please, don't burst his bubble. ^_^ This is one of those ideas which sounds good when leaving out the details. How many would work full time if everything was free? How many would spend 5 years on an education if everything was free? How many would buy a small TV if they could get a whole cinema for free? How many would cook food if they could order it for free? ... | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
In a world without rewards, where everything is supposedly available to everyone, there is no more motivation to do a hassle. Most people who are too lazy to work there, will not work at all while they may have enormous potential to create a new technology. This is why Communism failed and we are now stuck with Capitalism (and honestly, I hate both, there is just no alternative). | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:58 diggurd wrote: to those believe (yeah i mean like religiously believe it) that money is the only incentive: DeliCiousVP im with you my sweet brother. im norwegian, we're almost there guys. i get everything for free, and i still want to do my share for the world. imagine that!? Actually the incentive is pleasures/property/etc, money is merely a path to acquiring these pleasures, which is why we strive after it. Anyways I'm still waiting on you VP to explain how you're going to give me the extravagant lifestyle I want. Because you know, if I don't have a job, I'm going to get bored easily, and I'm going to need to fill that hole with trips to the mariana trench and skydives over mt.everest | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:46 JonnyBNoHo wrote: It's a fundamental part of economics. It's not that people will necessarily sit around all day. It's more a matter of how people spend their time. Sure there will be farmers that still want to farm to feed their local community. But what's the incentive to produce specific crops? The ones that are actually in high demand? And how does the farmer measure if growing that type of food is efficient for him without pricing? Does he have to use too much fertilizer to make the crops grow? What counts as too much? Pricing isn't just an arbitrary number. It's an aggregation of information relating to supply and demand. Going back to incentives, how do you get people to do the jobs that suck? Or are hard to do? Sure, some will naturally like doing them but to get enough people to do it you need an incentive. In a market economy that's higher pay. In communism that's taken care of by secret police and the military. Or you have magic robots do it. If you can motivate people to go down into sewers for piss and shit pay, i dont see any problem motivating people to do the job when they actually receive something thats 100x times better. Studies will be made to find out what jobs are the least giving and they will automated quickly and alot of job will simply dissapear, Like phone salesmen, lawyers, polticians, bankers Anyone having the idea that people will be sent out to do meaninless dull tasks like "working in the field" has sorely missunderstood its about making sure people dont have to waste their time doing dull tasks thats the point. the western world is turning into well fare stats and a new conciousness is growing the public is becoming well educated to what goes on in the higher echellions of power in the first time since ever. This is thanks to the internet. Captilism>Socialistic Wellfare state>RBE Value shift: social concern becomes personal concern. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:58 diggurd wrote: im norwegian, we're almost there guys. i get everything for free, and i still want to do my share for the world. imagine that!? You get "everything for free" because Norway is a small country with a lot of oil. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:58 diggurd wrote: to those believe (yeah i mean like religiously believe it) that money is the only incentive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc DeliCiousVP im with you my sweet brother. im norwegian, we're almost there guys. i get everything for free, and i still want to do my share for the world. imagine that!? Capitalism and free market economies are NOT built on the belief that money is the ONLY incentive. It's built on the idea that people prefer more money to less. And it works. And it still works when it comes to high technology. There are plenty of really smart people working on new technology at MIT and Harvard. But it's not enough. So as new technologies are discovered new companies are set up to give the smart people the resources they need and a huge financial incentive to finish their research and turn it into something useful to the market. Yes, in communist Russia Tetris was invented. Yet it's not where the video game industry grew and prospered. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:59 Batch wrote: Please, don't burst his bubble. ^_^ This is one of those ideas which sounds good when leaving out the details. How many would work full time if everything was free? How many would spend 5 years on an education if everything was free? How many would buy a small TV if they could get a whole cinema for free? How many would cook food if they could order it for free? ... 1. You work with what you want maybe there would be some communal project that they would want you to clock 2-6 hours a week on. 2. Education will morph and change look to the Khan academy for example. our education infrastructure is very inefficent. More good for social education then factual. 3. You could go watch your movies in cinemas for free you might not get your own tho. 4.  Preparing your own food is both inefficent and wasteful structure would motivate you to eat out rather then make your own food. Q: who would make the food? A: someone who wants to and he/She/them could take advantage of machinery aswel so the process dont become to long and dull. | ||
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diggurd
Norway346 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:02 1Eris1 wrote: Actually the incentive is pleasures/property/etc, money is merely a path to acquiring these pleasures, which is why we strive after it. Anyways I'm still waiting on you VP to explain how you're going to give me the extravagant lifestyle I want. Because you know, if I don't have a job, I'm going to get bored easily, and I'm going to need to fill that hole with trips to the mariana trench and skydives over mt.everest yeah but that point is really important - and alot of people in this thread would not go along with that... because you can have pleasure and accomplishments without even knowing what money is.. and if you watch the entire video, you will notice that money will in some cases hinder productivity etc. listen.. if you want everything you can think of (in this imaginary world) - everybody else can have it too, right? ok.. so now we have a problem, we probably dont have enough resources on this planet to do that.. you still want it? ok.. i guess we have to make/find new planets.. thats going to take a while, but if thats what you want - we will do our best.. what is that? you were just making a point, you dont really want all that stuff? youll take whatever we can give you at this time? | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Norwar_Exports_Tree_Map_%282009%29.pdf/page1-768px-Norwar_Exports_Tree_Map_%282009%29.pdf.jpg) Norway's exports according to Wiki. IT IS OKAY GUYS YOU CAN HAVE EVERYTHING FOR FREE U JUST NEED TO FIND SOME OIL. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:46 JonnyBNoHo wrote: It's a fundamental part of economics. It's not that people will necessarily sit around all day. It's more a matter of how people spend their time. Sure there will be farmers that still want to farm to feed their local community. But what's the incentive to produce specific crops? The ones that are actually in high demand? And how does the farmer measure if growing that type of food is efficient for him without pricing? Does he have to use too much fertilizer to make the crops grow? What counts as too much? The important bit is that people will not, in fact, sit on their asses all day and will actually work. So I'm glad we at least agree on that. As for the functionality of the system, we actually possess the means and technology to store and organize information. So communicating information on what is needed, and how much, is hardly an issue. As for the farmer, since he's technically not selling anything or competing on a market, he has no reason to even care which specific crops he grows. You can just have an algorithm decide which crops and how much are being grown where to meet the overall needs of the population in the most rational and efficient way (based on demand, logistics, etc). People are then effectively relieved of stress and risk of having to compete on the market, potential job/profit losses due to bad business decisions (sometimes not even their own), they still get compensated for the work they do, plus they still have political rights and thus a way to influence and change things they disagree with. Actual economy, in its essential form, is really simple. There are resources, and there are people who need to consume resources in order to live at a certain standard. There is always a mathematically optimal way to divide and distribute these resources so that as many people are as content as rationally possible. Again, you can write a program that does it better. Ultimately, these debates are not economic or technology debates, they are ethical debates. Do you want a global society that primarily respects human life, or one that primarily exploits it? | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:03 DeliCiousVP wrote: If you can motivate people to go down into sewers for piss and shit pay, i dont see any problem motivating people to do the job when they actually receive something thats 100x times better. Studies will be made to find out what jobs are the least giving and they will automated quickly and alot of job will simply dissapear, Like phone salesmen, lawyers, polticians, bankers Anyone having the idea that people will be sent out to do meaninless dull tasks like "working in the field" has sorely missunderstood its about making sure people dont have to waste their time doing dull tasks thats the point. the western world is turning into well fare stats and a new conciousness is growing the public is becoming well educated to what goes on in the higher echellions of power in the first time since ever. This is thanks to the internet. Captilism>Socialistic Wellfare state>RBE Value shift: social concern becomes personal concern. They get paid well in NYC. But regardless... If you automate jobs based on what is 'least giving' then there will be fewer resources to go around for other things. You will be making people poorer. Basically the "Great Leap Forward" all over again where 30 million people died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward Oh, but it'll be different this time because you have the internet and you can look up new technologies on YouTube before you put them into use. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:12 diggurd wrote: yeah but that point is really important - and alot of people in this thread would not go along with that... because you can have pleasure and accomplishments without even knowing what money is.. and if you watch the entire video, you will notice that money will in some cases hinder productivity etc. listen.. if you want everything you can think of (in this imaginary world) - everybody else can have it too, right? ok.. so now we have a problem, we probably dont have enough resources on this planet to do that.. you still want it? ok.. i guess we have to make/find new planets.. thats going to take a while, but if thats what you want - we will do our best.. what is that? you were just making a point, you dont really want all that stuff? youll take whatever we can give you at this time? Actually, there are plenty of people who will not take "whatever you can give them at this time." Personally I don't think I would start a revolution unless what you were giving me was really bad, but some people would, and this is exactly why communism has failed time and time again. Basically everyone was given X, but Stalin/Mao/whoever wanted 10x, so they destroyed the society in the process. I agree you do not need money to have pleasure, you need certain items/events/etc to have pleasure. But if such things are limitied, it is almost guranteed that some people will not get the pleasure they want, and some of them will not stand for it. This is why capitalism is better, because it allows people to work towards what they want. Most of them will not get everything they want, but they will have the oppurtunity and they will still keep at it, and thus keep contributing to society as a whole until they do. | ||
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diggurd
Norway346 Posts
what about sweden, finland, denmark? they are just the same as us, and they dont have nearly that much oil.. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:11 DeliCiousVP wrote: 1. You work with what you want maybe there would be some communal project that they would want you to clock 2-6 hours a week on. 2. Education will morph and change look to the Khan academy for example. our education infrastructure is very inefficent. More good for social education then factual. 3. You could go watch your movies in cinemas for free you might not get your own tho. 4. Preparing your own food is both inefficent and wasteful structure would motivate you to eat out rather then make your own food. Q: who would make the food? A: someone who wants to and he/She/them could take advantage of machinery aswel so the process dont become to long and dull. You got a lot of good points but there are still problems with chores which no one or very few want to do do. I'm certain we easily could find people who want to do the stimulating jobs which require some form of creativity. What about the chores which no one likes? I'm sure most work places got a few of those. I'm working as an IT consultant and I do love my job and would happily continue working even if everything became free. But I wouldn't work my 40+h I currently work, I would probably work half as much. I would want to develop new systems and don't work as much with bug fixing or support of old systems. Who will do the chores no one likes? | ||
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Lafie
Finland36 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:22 diggurd wrote: yeah we have the oil, thats no secret. does that wiki page say how much of those money we use? if you think scandinavia is what it is because of oil, i think you need to read some more about it.. what about sweden, finland, denmark? they are just the same as us, and they dont have nearly that much oil.. What the hell are you talking about. Only thing you get "free" is some money to buy food. And it's not free when rest of the working people who aren't lazy scums are paying for it. There is a reason why racism is increasing in Finland when immigration is increasing, and it's getting harder and harder to support peoples for even their food. Currently for example, the elderly get barely 200€ per month to survive. And most young people who are successing, are moving away, because paying over 50% of your incomes as taxes isn't tempting for them. Finland has seen what happened in Soviet Union, and how this magical free for all is doing so well and developing great nation in Cuba for example. If this would happen, the world would go back in stage of dark mid ages from 14th century. | ||
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:58 diggurd wrote: to those believe (yeah i mean like religiously believe it) that money is the only incentive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc DeliCiousVP im with you my sweet brother. im norwegian, we're almost there guys. i get everything for free, and i still want to do my share for the world. imagine that!? Great video, I agree with it to 100%. But I still don't believe money should or could be completely taken out of the equation. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:30 Lafie wrote: What the hell are you talking about. Only thing you get "free" is some money to buy food. And it's not free when rest of the working people who aren't lazy scums are paying for it. There is a reason why racism is increasing in Finland when immigration is increasing, and it's getting harder and harder to support peoples for even their food. Currently for example, the elderly get barely 200€ per month to survive. And most young people who are successing, are moving away, because paying over 50% of your incomes as taxes isn't tempting for them. Finland has seen what happened in Soviet Union, and how this magical free for all is doing so well and developing great nation in Cuba for example. If this would happen, the world would go back in stage of dark mid ages from 14th century. Wait, one guy is like "everything is free in Norway" and you're talking about "surviving". Which is it? :D | ||
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